Five Poecilotheria species - Endangered status and limitations

lostbrane

Arachnobaron
Arachnosupporter
Joined
Jul 8, 2018
Messages
518
P. rufilata will eventually be put under the protections of the ESA. It and 5 other species were listed in the original petition. Due to budget constraints it didn’t get added to the latest decision, as well as the other Indian species.
 

MantisSpider29

Arachnopeon
Joined
Sep 10, 2018
Messages
15
Alright I know a little more about this ban. So no interstate sales can happen but, we can still trade pokies through interstate boundaries or something along the lines like that right?
 

lostbrane

Arachnobaron
Arachnosupporter
Joined
Jul 8, 2018
Messages
518
Breeding loans are fine. Trading one for another spider seems pretty iffy. Giving one away for free is also fine.
 

MantisSpider29

Arachnopeon
Joined
Sep 10, 2018
Messages
15
So it is like selling waterbottles at fairs. You can't sell waterbottles but, you can sell toothpicks for a dollar each and each toothpick comes with a free bottle of water.
 

Aleetist

Arachnosquire
Joined
Jun 4, 2018
Messages
73
So it is like selling waterbottles at fairs. You can't sell waterbottles but, you can sell toothpicks for a dollar each and each toothpick comes with a free bottle of water.
Please go back and read through the pages of posts to understand why this is wrong and can't/won't happen.
 

advan

oOOo
Staff member
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
2,027
Breeding loans are fine. Trading one for another spider seems pretty iffy. Giving one away for free is also fine.
Breeding loans are not fine. If you are gifting a male to someone than yes, if you expect spiderlings in return that is not fine.
 

lostbrane

Arachnobaron
Arachnosupporter
Joined
Jul 8, 2018
Messages
518
How so are the spiderlings not ok to be sent back? I didn’t see anything in the final decision or the question sheet that said anything about that being illegal. They aren’t being entered into commerce...

But yes, the male would definitely have to be gifted.

I can see it that maybe FWS has a different definition of loan but from what I saw, they explicitly stated that loans were ok. It would baffle me to no end if somehow the spiderlings would not be considered a gift in that specific instance. However, as I have previously stated elsewhere in this thread, I could be completey incorrect in this interpretation so any illumination would be greatly appreciated!
 
Last edited:

SonsofArachne

Arachnoangel
Joined
Dec 10, 2017
Messages
931
I'm starting to think we're over-thinking this. FWS budget has been cut a number of times including the last budget. I seriously doubt if they're going to be chasing down every breeding loan to make sure everything was done perfectly correct. I'm not a breeder, so I'm not risking anything, but I still don't think they're going to form a special pokie task force to check every trade, breeding loan, etc. Now, that being said, I would still advise against selling them - that would likely bring trouble down on your head.
 

MetalMan2004

Arachnodemon
Joined
Oct 14, 2016
Messages
674
Breeding loans are not fine. If you are gifting a male to someone than yes, if you expect spiderlings in return that is not fine.
The FAQ sheet they put out after the decision stated that loans were okay. I also emailed the contact listed on the decision paper for clarification and they stated that a loan with offspring given back in return was fine as long as money was not involved.
 

sdsnybny

Arachnogeek
Arachnosupporter
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
1,322
Breeding loans are not fine. If you are gifting a male to someone than yes, if you expect spiderlings in return that is not fine.
@advan Am I reading the ESA fact page wrong? It seems breeding loans via shipping your male/female to the breeder and receiving it and your portion of said offspring is not a violation and does not require a permit.

https://www.fws.gov/endangered/permits/faq.html
"What situations are exempt from the prohibitions of the ESA?
Loans and Gifts
Lawfully taken and held endangered and threatened species may be shipped interstate as a bona fide gift or loan if there is no barter, credit, other form of compensation, or intent to profit or gain. A standard breeding loan, where no money or other consideration changes hands but some offspring are returned to the lender of a breeding animal, is not considered a commercial activity and, thus, is not prohibited by the ESA and does not require a permit. Documentation of such an activity should accompany shipment."
 

sdsnybny

Arachnogeek
Arachnosupporter
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
1,322
Only now have I noticed this part...what sort of documentation? Breeding papers?
I would imagine sending and receiving party contact info, species and sex w/terms of loan. Something simple just showing whats going on should it be stooped and inspected.
 

Aleetist

Arachnosquire
Joined
Jun 4, 2018
Messages
73
I'm starting to think we're over-thinking this. FWS budget has been cut a number of times including the last budget. I seriously doubt if they're going to be chasing down every breeding loan to make sure everything was done perfectly correct. I'm not a breeder, so I'm not risking anything, but I still don't think they're going to form a special pokie task force to check every trade, breeding loan, etc. Now, that being said, I would still advise against selling them - that would likely bring trouble down on your head.
You are probably correct, but I think it's most likely for the best that we dissect this all now so that we know we can be above board on transactions so that there isn't as much confusion when a year from now someone asks "so can I X with my P. ornata?" we can give a definitive yes or no with proper reasoning and advise on how they can legally go about their business. Better to be above board and protect the hobby from further scrutiny. The fewer bad shipments there are the less likely there is a chance they will get seen which means better things (or at least will hopefully stave off worse things) for the hobby in general imho.
 

SonsofArachne

Arachnoangel
Joined
Dec 10, 2017
Messages
931
You are probably correct, but I think it's most likely for the best that we dissect this all now so that we know we can be above board on transactions so that there isn't as much confusion when a year from now someone asks "so can I X with my P. ornata?" we can give a definitive yes or no with proper reasoning and advise on how they can legally go about their business. Better to be above board and protect the hobby from further scrutiny. The fewer bad shipments there are the less likely there is a chance they will get seen which means better things (or at least will hopefully stave off worse things) for the hobby in general imho.
I agree with this, but there are many conflicting statements on this thread and some make it seem like the moment you make a mistake a swat team will break down your door. I made comments about possible loopholes and some people made it seem like I was breaking the law just talking about it. It's getting a little ridiculous.
 

Drezan

Arachnosquire
Joined
Sep 13, 2018
Messages
54
Honestly though, what's to stop people from selling these breeds of spider? The people at FedEx aren't going to know xD
 

SonsofArachne

Arachnoangel
Joined
Dec 10, 2017
Messages
931
Honestly though, what's to stop people from selling these breeds of spider? The people at FedEx aren't going to know xD
Actually you probably could get away with it as long as you kept it quiet, but I wouldn't want to find out the hard way that I'm wrong.
 

Glorious Baboon

Arachnosquire
Joined
Oct 20, 2018
Messages
95
It’s sad they want to extinguish this genus
It will have the opposite effect.

Right now captive stock is so readily available and inexpensive that importing or smuggling such species makes absolutely no sense, its just not monetarily worth the effort and risk.

However, in a decade, when hobby stock begins to dwindle, it will open a whole new, now lucrative avenue for smugglers.

IMO its a very backwards law that will do exactly the opposite of its intention.

So sad:( An extremely uneducated and reactive bit of legislation.

Captive bred stock and breeding does nothing negative for the endangered animals in India....in fact, it takes the pressure off those species from a hobby standpoint.
So if you have a sac you can’t sell the slings in your state without a breeders license and documentation? I’m not 100% understanding this I have two of the species I purchased and I bred one before August 30th on breeders loan in my state so am I stuck raising all the slings I have?
 
Top