Five Poecilotheria species - Endangered status and limitations

EulersK

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P. fasciata, P. ornata, P. smithi, P. subfusca, and P. vittata have been added as endangered species

I saw this on Facebook and initially thought that it was fake, but no, it's completely real. Here in the US, it appears as if it is now illegal to sell those species across state lines. The full proposal can be found here for those more versed in legalities than I am. But to quote the proposal:

In addition, it is illegal for any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to import; export; deliver, receive, carry, transport, or ship in interstate or foreign commerce, by any means whatsoever and in the course of commercial activity; or sell or offer for sale in interstate or foreign commerce any listed species.
 

Nightstalker47

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I don't understand the reasoning with this. They are endangered in their native range mainly due to habitat loss...yet they wont let us keep, breed, and sell our CB spiders?

What good is that going to do. :banghead:
 

Sergic

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I don't understand the reasoning with this. They are endangered in their native range mainly due to habitat loss...yet they wont let us keep, breed, and sell our CB spiders?

What good is that going to do. :banghead:
The logic must be to reduce the demand for smuggled spiders. But their report says smuggling is probably rare, and smuggled individuals are mostly sent to Europe or Asia. So in practice, it seems these new rules will do a lot to decrease trade of CB individuals and very little to protect the wild ones.
 

Venom1080

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Also, you can around it without too much difficulty. The permit I believe is called a cbv. Basically let's lets you buy captive bred slings of the endangered species. Costs 200 bucks for 5 years. Then renewed for another 5. Then reapplied for. All purchases have to be kept track of and submitted somewhere yearly I think.
 

Nightstalker47

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That's for the states.
I know man, still think its stupid.
Also, you can around it without too much difficulty. The permit I believe is called a cbv. Basically let's lets you buy captive bred slings of the endangered species. Costs 200 bucks for 5 years. Then renewed for another 5. Then reapplied for. All purchases have to be kept track of and submitted somewhere yearly I think.
They still cant be sold across state lines, so what are you paying for, right?
The logic must be to reduce the demand for smuggled spiders. But their report says smuggling is probably rare, and smuggled individuals are mostly sent to Europe or Asia. So in practice, it seems these new rules will do a lot to decrease trade of CB individuals and very little to protect the wild ones.
Exactly, I wonder how much these lawmakers even know about the hobby and how rare WC poecilotheria actually are. When was the last import that anyone can remember...haven't seen or even heard of a WC poec in ages, almost all are CB.
 

pocock1899

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Also, you can around it without too much difficulty. The permit I believe is called a cbv. Basically let's lets you buy captive bred slings of the endangered species. Costs 200 bucks for 5 years. Then renewed for another 5. Then reapplied for. All purchases have to be kept track of and submitted somewhere yearly I think.
Be sure to read the stipulations surround the permit. Captive breeding for commercial or hobby purposes are not allowed under the permit. It's for people who are actually working on conservation of a species.

"For endangered species, permits may be issued for scientific research, enhancement of propagation or survival, and taking that is incidental to an otherwise lawful activity.
For threatened species, permits also may be issued for zoological, horticultural, or botanical exhibition; educational use; and special purposes consistent with the ESA.
A person may request a captive-bred wildlife registration from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) to buy and sell within the United States live, non-native endangered or threatened animals that were captive born in the United States for enhancement of species propagation, provided the other person in the transaction is registered for the same species. A separate permit is needed to import or export such species. Captive-bred wildlife permits are not issued to keep or breed endangered or threatened animals as pets. Keeping protected species as pets is not consistent with the purposes of the ESA, which is aimed at conservation of the species and recovery of wild populations."
 

cold blood

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The logic must be to reduce the demand for smuggled spiders.
It will have the opposite effect.

Right now captive stock is so readily available and inexpensive that importing or smuggling such species makes absolutely no sense, its just not monetarily worth the effort and risk.

However, in a decade, when hobby stock begins to dwindle, it will open a whole new, now lucrative avenue for smugglers.

IMO its a very backwards law that will do exactly the opposite of its intention.

So sad:( An extremely uneducated and reactive bit of legislation.

Captive bred stock and breeding does nothing negative for the endangered animals in India....in fact, it takes the pressure off those species from a hobby standpoint.
 
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Venom1080

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I know man, still think its stupid.

They still cant be sold across state lines, so what are you paying for, right?

Exactly, I wonder how much these lawmakers even know about the hobby and how rare WC poecilotheria actually are. When was the last import that anyone can remember...haven't seen or even heard of a WC poec in ages, almost all are CB.
Well, if both parties had it, they could buy and sell from each other. Not that it matters.

@pocock1899 yeah, just looked more into it. Shame. But I hope for the best. I'd rather these have a healthy population in the wild then only in captivity..
 

Nightstalker47

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Be sure to read the stipulations surround the permit. Captive breeding for commercial or hobby purposes are not allowed under the permit. It's for people who are actually working on conservation of a species.

"For endangered species, permits may be issued for scientific research, enhancement of propagation or survival, and taking that is incidental to an otherwise lawful activity.
For threatened species, permits also may be issued for zoological, horticultural, or botanical exhibition; educational use; and special purposes consistent with the ESA.
A person may request a captive-bred wildlife registration from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) to buy and sell within the United States live, non-native endangered or threatened animals that were captive born in the United States for enhancement of species propagation, provided the other person in the transaction is registered for the same species. A separate permit is needed to import or export such species. Captive-bred wildlife permits are not issued to keep or breed endangered or threatened animals as pets. Keeping protected species as pets is not consistent with the purposes of the ESA, which is aimed at conservation of the species and recovery of wild populations."
In that case, we wouldn't even be eligible for the permit in the first place. Sounds more like its geared towards zoos and museums, not the individual keeper or hobbyist.

We need to get their attention somehow, this was a bad call. Cant see it helping any of these species, if the situation in the wild doesn't improve...an exctinction event is very plausible. Our CB spiders may be all thats left of these species one day.
 

BoyFromLA

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So what’s going to happen or what action needs to be taken for those (keepers & breeders) with these five pokies?
 

EulersK

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So what’s going to happen or what action needs to be taken for those (keepers & breeders) with these five pokies?
From what I can tell, owning them is perfectly legal. It's selling across state lines that is the issue. So if you've got stock to sell... sell it before August 30th (that's when the laws go into effect).
 

BoyFromLA

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From what I can tell, owning them is perfectly legal. It's selling across state lines that is the issue. So if you've got stock to sell... sell it before August 30th (that's when the laws go into effect).
Or to buy one or two before August 30th!
 

cold blood

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Cant see it helping any of these species, if the situation in the wild doesn't improve
Nope, in fact, if wild conditions don't improve with respect to the species, and it won't, extinction is the inevitable result....stopping captive breeding all but guarantees this will occur one day.

I feel bad for anyone with a gravid female of these species, by the time they hatch out, they won't be able to be sold...what's the alternative...freezing the sac or raising an entre sac...no one wants to, or will raise entire sacs. The captive breeding game on these 5 species just ended.
 

darkness975

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I was having a mediocre day, then it improved when I got home, but now it's been shot straight to the underworld.

I'm done.
 

Sergic

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When was the last import that anyone can remember...haven't seen or even heard of a WC poec in ages, almost all are CB.
The Fish and Wildlife report says 4 of 400 individuals of these species that were shipped to or from the US between 2007 and 2012 were wild caught. So it seems the people who wrote the report know wild caught individuals are rare in the pet trade.

The FWS report has a section arguing that spiders in the pet trade do nothing for conservation because of the lax standards in breeding that might lead to inbreeding depression or hybrids. But it still seems to me that spiders with unknown pedigree are preferable to extinction.
 

MikeyD

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Welcome to the wonderful world of CITIES. As an orchid grower I’m familiar enough with all the failings of this system. It causes highly restricted, controlled, or a full ban on trade yet in the county of origin they do nothing to protect the species or its habitat. It’s fristrating and it’s been a hot topic for a very long time. At least with orchids we have micropropagtion and can raise and sell plants legally because there can be proof that they are not wild collected plants. This is very common with Orchids and Nepenthes and huge markets have grown around them to grow and supply legal plants. I’m not sure if this could happen with Ts but it is a possibility if someone decides to navigate the bureaucratic red tape and obtain permits to both breed and distribute these species. It’s all been done before with other organisms.
 

SonsofArachne

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The Fish and Wildlife report says 4 of 400 individuals of these species that were shipped to or from the US between 2007 and 2012 were wild caught. So it seems the people who wrote the report know wild caught individuals are rare in the pet trade.

The FWS report has a section arguing that spiders in the pet trade do nothing for conservation because of the lax standards in breeding that might lead to inbreeding depression or hybrids. But it still seems to me that spiders with unknown pedigree are preferable to extinction.
When these spiders are extinct in the wild they will be begging for captive bred animals. California condors were very inbred when they took them in for captive breeding - now there are hundreds of them, many returned to the wild. And some of the Texas subspecies of Puma concolor were moved to Florida to breed with the Florida "panther" subspecies to save what was left of the Florida gene pool. So much for worrying about inbreeding depression or hybrids.
 
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