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Five Poecilotheria species - Endangered status and limitations

lostbrane

Arachnobaron
Arachnosupporter +
Joined
Jul 8, 2018
Messages
518
I get it. I just don't want these beautiful creatures to disappear forever when there are means to keep them around, albeit maybe not as genetically pure. I don't agree with the sentiment that you only love something until finances become a concern (ok yeah if it's essentials for yourself/loved ones, etc. that's a very serious matter and obviously that has to be attended to with the highest priority). I might just be that crazy about this genus, but I'm more than willing to operate (well also never operated at a profit since I'm not a breeder/seller) at a loss financially to keep these species going as best as possible. I'm lucky in that I have plenty of room so I could probably keep quite a majority of the offspring, and I have a decent flow of income. Yes, I don't agree with how the decision came about, and the sort of lack of objective reasoning but that does not change the fact that the 5 will be covered starting September, and more will soon follow.

On that note, I'm doing research into similar efforts, such as CARES, and hopefully I can find some like minded folk, where as keepers of tarantulas we keep the species around despite little to no money made. I don't have everything laid out, but I'm getting ideas together and reaching out to people, etc. So yeah, I'll probably post a thread once I have something a bit more concrete on that front. It's going to take some time, a lot of effort, and a lot of organization but I'm committed to seeing something happen, even if that something isn't success. My logic is at least something is/will be done. I do understand that it is more than likely not a lot would be able or even want to participate, but anyways I'm rambling. Full stop.
 

SonsofArachne

Arachnoangel
Joined
Dec 10, 2017
Messages
957
I had a thought. If you knew someone in another state were they were selling a pokie you wanted they could buy it and gift it to you. Then, being a good friend, in the near future you might send them a present, say, some cash. As long as the two gifts weren't connected there shouldn't be a problem. Maybe they could be birthday presents. ( though this won't work for me, all my friends and relatives live my state)
 

MetalMan2004

Arachnodemon
Joined
Oct 14, 2016
Messages
681
I had a thought. If you knew someone in another state were they were selling a pokie you wanted they could buy it and gift it to you. Then, being a good friend, in the near future you might send them a present, say, some cash. As long as the two gifts weren't connected there shouldn't be a problem. Maybe they could be birthday presents. ( though this won't work for me, all my friends and relatives live my state)
They made it rather clear that cash changing hands in any direction is a problem.
 

MintyWood826

Arachnobaron
Joined
Jun 16, 2018
Messages
398
They made it rather clear that cash changing hands in any direction is a problem.
So if someone out of state gifted me one, I could never give them money or giftcards or anything for their birthday or Christmas or whatever? For completely, bona fide actually unrelated stuff? To me it seems like an honestly unrelated money exchange could be used to convict us.
 

Aleetist

Arachnosquire
Joined
Jun 4, 2018
Messages
73
I had a thought. If you knew someone in another state were they were selling a pokie you wanted they could buy it and gift it to you. Then, being a good friend, in the near future you might send them a present, say, some cash. As long as the two gifts weren't connected there shouldn't be a problem. Maybe they could be birthday presents. ( though this won't work for me, all my friends and relatives live my state)
Are you saying you want to be friends? ;););)
 

Torech Ungol

Arachnosquire
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
122
I had a thought. If you knew someone in another state were they were selling a pokie you wanted they could buy it and gift it to you. Then, being a good friend, in the near future you might send them a present, say, some cash. As long as the two gifts weren't connected there shouldn't be a problem. Maybe they could be birthday presents. ( though this won't work for me, all my friends and relatives live my state)
This post demonstrates a desire to circumvent the law. That seems enough to demonstrate both intent and motive. The transaction itself would show opportunity. That's the needed triumvirate for conviction right there. Seems like a bad idea.

Now, if you were able to show that the amount of money paid is consistent with other amounts you paid in the past, to the same individual, at roughly the same time, you could likely show that the transaction was genuinely unrelated. Otherwise, you'd be in a bad position.
 

lostbrane

Arachnobaron
Arachnosupporter +
Joined
Jul 8, 2018
Messages
518
To me it seems like an honestly unrelated money exchange could be used to convict us.
Those would probably be far enough apart and would coincide with other stuff enough to if they did think it suspicious you’d have a good case for yourself. That being said, I highly recommend proper and meticulous documentation if you do receive one as a bona fide gift.

wanted they could buy it
Roundabout interstate sale. Don’t do it.
 
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SonsofArachne

Arachnoangel
Joined
Dec 10, 2017
Messages
957
This post demonstrates a desire to circumvent the law. That seems enough to demonstrate both intent and motive. The transaction itself would show opportunity. That's the needed triumvirate for conviction right there. Seems like a bad idea.

Now, if you were able to show that the amount of money paid is consistent with other amounts you paid in the past, to the same individual, at roughly the same time, you could likely show that the transaction was genuinely unrelated. Otherwise, you'd be in a bad position.
Let me be clear, I currently have all the Sri Lankan species that I currently want (subfusca lowland, fasciata, and vittata) so my post is is proof of nothing. Believe me, I wouldn't be dumb enough to make a post if I were actually planning to do something like this. While I understand this would be technically illegal, I was mostly wondering if they would push the law that far, or would they think it would be to hard to prove and not worth the trouble.
 

MetalMan2004

Arachnodemon
Joined
Oct 14, 2016
Messages
681
Let me be clear, I currently have all the Sri Lankan species that I currently want (subfusca lowland, fasciata, and vittata) so my post is is proof of nothing. Believe me, I wouldn't be dumb enough to make a post if I were actually planning to do something like this. While I understand this would be technically illegal, I was mostly wondering if they would push the law that far, or would they think it would be to hard to prove and not worth the trouble.
We’re in uncharted territory here so its anyone’s guess. I’d certainly heir on the side of caution.
 

SonsofArachne

Arachnoangel
Joined
Dec 10, 2017
Messages
957
We’re in uncharted territory here so its anyone’s guess. I’d certainly heir on the side of caution.
My guess is people will be thinking of, and doing, things like this all over the place. If people want these species bad enough, well, we all know what some people are willing to do to get what they want.
 

MintyWood826

Arachnobaron
Joined
Jun 16, 2018
Messages
398
We’re in uncharted territory here so its anyone’s guess. I’d certainly heir on the side of caution.
Some laws might be broken by some because the laws aren't clear about some scenarios. Also if they forget to read their state's laws.
 

MetalMan2004

Arachnodemon
Joined
Oct 14, 2016
Messages
681
My guess is people will be thinking of, and doing, things like this all over the place. If people want these species bad enough, well, we all know what some people are willing to do to get what they want.
Some laws might be broken by some because the laws aren't clear about some scenarios. Also if they forget to read their state's laws.
I guarantee that there people will break the law. The question is how many will get caught and how hard will the feds come down on them?

I’ve looked a bit into my state’s laws and I’m having trouble finding the pertinant information myself.
 

MintyWood826

Arachnobaron
Joined
Jun 16, 2018
Messages
398
Now, if you were able to show that the amount of money paid is consistent with other amounts you paid in the past, to the same individual, at roughly the same time, you could likely show that the transaction was genuinely unrelated. Otherwise, you'd be in a bad position.
This makes me mad because what if it's a coincidence but it can't be proved one? I don't know about others, but I don't give the same person the same amount of money at the same-ish time of year.

When I wish I could just be optimistic ^

I guarantee that there people will break the law. The question is how many will get caught and how hard will the feds come down on them?
Let's hope very few break the law. We don't need hobbyists to be seen as criminals.
 

MintyWood826

Arachnobaron
Joined
Jun 16, 2018
Messages
398
I’ve looked a bit into my state’s laws and I’m having trouble finding the pertinant information myself.
I did too, but all it did was confuse me. I've emailed them. Hopefully the response will actually be helpful, unlike my last email about this. :rolleyes:
 

pocock1899

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
84
I'm more than a little amused by the turn that this thread has taken. At first, everyone seemed to be so concerned with the captive breeding and conservation of the species, and there were several posts about the greed of the countries involved. Yet now, the main thrust of the conversation is STILL how can we make money off our spiders and not get caught.

If conservation is truly your main concern, this law doesn't affect you in the slightest. You can breed your spiders, give them away to other breeders and receive free breeders. You can even loan your males out and receive them back, along with offspring. The ESA doesn't stop breeding for conservation.

This only affects people who want to make money off their spiders. The same folks that chalk this up to greed on the part of the countries are now the ones trying to skirt the law for their own greed.
So, what IS your priority? ...the spiders? ...or making money off them?
 

MintyWood826

Arachnobaron
Joined
Jun 16, 2018
Messages
398
I'm more than a little amused by the turn that this thread has taken. At first, everyone seemed to be so concerned with the captive breeding and conservation of the species, and there were several posts about the greed of the countries involved. Yet now, the main thrust of the conversation is STILL how can we make money off our spiders and not get caught.

If conservation is truly your main concern, this law doesn't affect you in the slightest. You can breed your spiders, give them away to other breeders and receive free breeders. You can even loan your males out and receive them back, along with offspring. The ESA doesn't stop breeding for conservation.

This only affects people who want to make money off their spiders. The same folks that chalk this up to greed on the part of the countries are now the ones trying to skirt the law for their own greed.
So, what IS your priority? ...the spiders? ...or making money off them?
My concern is not making money off of them, it's that there's a chance of some of these dying out in some states, while they go extinct in the wild. Also they don't consider CB specimens pure enough to be bred fir conservation.
 

lostbrane

Arachnobaron
Arachnosupporter +
Joined
Jul 8, 2018
Messages
518
But that’s why I’m trying to mobilizie some people to where even if our specimens aren’t the purest they are as pure as can be in the event they have no choice but to use CB tarantulas in the hobby.
 

MintyWood826

Arachnobaron
Joined
Jun 16, 2018
Messages
398
@pocock1899 I think the money part comes in because it costs money to ship the spiders, even for breeding loans. There are also issues with space for so many slings who will eventually be adults.

For permits, it also costs money. Not sure how much though. And you have to prove that it's for the conservation of rhe species! They won't consider keeping some of these Pokies from possibly going extinct in some states as conservation.
 

SonsofArachne

Arachnoangel
Joined
Dec 10, 2017
Messages
957
As these species are already in captivity and they say they're worthless to conservation, what good does preventing interstate sales do for these species? Wait, I can answer that - none. And no, I'm not looking to sell these species, but if I wanted some these species in the future, preventing me from buying them outside my state does nothing to help these species.
 

MintyWood826

Arachnobaron
Joined
Jun 16, 2018
Messages
398
As these species are already in captivity and they say they're worthless to conservation, what good does preventing interstate sales do for these species? Wait, I can answer that - none. And no, I'm not looking to sell these species, but if I wanted some these species in the future, preventing me from buying them outside my state does nothing to help these species.
They should more strict on imports into the US of these rather than banning interstate sales. Actually, they should SUPPORT captive breeding and selling across the country! Then smuggling into the US will go down.(Not that it's high anyway...yet <-- because of law) Why would you smuggle if there are plenty of lower priced spiders already in the country?
 
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