Five Poecilotheria species - Endangered status and limitations

[Nightstalker47]

I'm more than a little amused by the turn that this thread has taken. At first, everyone seemed to be so concerned with the captive breeding and conservation of the species, and there were several posts about the greed of the countries involved. Yet now, the main thrust of the conversation is STILL how can we make money off our spiders and not get caught.

If conservation is truly your main concern, this law doesn't affect you in the slightest. You can breed your spiders, give them away to other breeders and receive free breeders. You can even loan your males out and receive them back, along with offspring. The ESA doesn't stop breeding for conservation.

This only affects people who want to make money off their spiders. The same folks that chalk this up to greed on the part of the countries are now the ones trying to skirt the law for their own greed.
So, what IS your priority? ...the spiders? ...or making money off them?

Right, so based on this train of thought...people should be jumping out of their seats to start breeding these species? Why are you making it sound like selling your slings makes you a greedy person, thats pretty ridiculous man. The banning of interstate sales will by direct consequence discourage/hinder the conservation of these species within the hobby, no matter how you try to paint it...just complicates things and doesn't help anyone.

Breeding poecs is a long drawn out process, some can take over 9 months after pairings before they even drop a sac. Then you have to incubate the eggs properly, feed them all and pack them individually for shipping, not to mention the costs of shipping. You expect someone to do all that for free?

This is hours of work were talking, its a service in itself breeding these spiders...reality is most people can't/won't do it. I would say that the person who expects to get all these tarantulas for free is more selfish then anyone else, especially if they don't intend on breeding themselves.

 

[Katiekooleyes]

Interesting dilemma. I'm not even from the states and I've been pondering this one.

Two main ways around this have popped to mind.

1) This one might not be doable to some, as it requires the buyer to know someone in the same state as the seller. This is also the more "clean" of the two, when it comes to legalities etc.

Basically, buyer (from, let's say VA) purchases a sling or two from the seller (from TX). However, the actual package gets sent to the buyers friend (in TX also). Now, that purchase has not crossed state lines. It's now in the possession of the friend. The friend can now send the slings to the buyer across state line as a private exchange, no commerce included. No matter who pays for postage from this point, it's still a private exchange.

It's exactly the same as if your aunty Blanche sent you a sweater for xmas!

2) This one's a little more complex, but could also be used to cover the costs of postage. It's on the "iffy" side of things, but could also open up a brand new market for breeders & sellers.

Buyer from VA purchases a sling from seller in TX. However, instead of paying for P&P, the buyer purchases an "upkeep fee" for the sling. Say, a week, 2 weeks etc. Eventually, those 2 weeks are up. The seller can no longer legally keep the slings, they belong to the buyer. So, there's no other option than to send what's rightfully theirs as the upkeep time is over, and the buyer has not purchased any more time.

No transaction to cross state line has been made, only the ownership of a sling, and its upkeep.

Could be a cheeky way to keep the trade going. Instead of P&P for these particular species, a mandatory "upkeep" fee must be paid, with a clause that determines the return of the specimen (to the buyer) in the T&C's

 

[Greasylake]

Interesting dilemma. I'm not even from the states and I've been pondering this one.

Two main ways around this have popped to mind.

1) This one might not be doable to some, as it requires the buyer to know someone in the same state as the seller. This is also the more "clean" of the two, when it comes to legalities etc.

Basically, buyer (from, let's say VA) purchases a sling or two from the seller (from TX). However, the actual package gets sent to the buyers friend (in TX also). Now, that purchase has not crossed state lines. It's now in the possession of the friend. The friend can now send the slings to the buyer across state line as a private exchange, no commerce included. No matter who pays for postage from this point, it's still a private exchange.

It's exactly the same as if your aunty Blanche sent you a sweater for xmas!

2) This one's a little more complex, but could also be used to cover the costs of postage. It's on the "iffy" side of things, but could also open up a brand new market for breeders & sellers.

Buyer from VA purchases a sling from seller in TX. However, instead of paying for P&P, the buyer purchases an "upkeep fee" for the sling. Say, a week, 2 weeks etc. Eventually, those 2 weeks are up. The seller can no longer legally keep the slings, they belong to the buyer. So, there's no other option than to send what's rightfully theirs as the upkeep time is over, and the buyer has not purchased any more time.

No transaction to cross state line has been made, only the ownership of a sling, and its upkeep.

Could be a cheeky way to keep the trade going. Instead of P&P for these particular species, a mandatory "upkeep" fee must be paid, with a clause that determines the return of the specimen (to the buyer) in the T&C's

You just described money laundering... but with spiders.

 

[Katiekooleyes]

You just described money laundering... but with spiders.

Pretty much, yeah!

But more importantly, will it work?

 

[Ungoliant]

But more importantly, will it work?

The best free legal advice I can give you is that if you are trying to circumvent the law (by creating elaborate loopholes), you are asking for trouble.

 

[Katiekooleyes]

The best free legal advice I can give you is that if you are trying to circumvent the law (by creating elaborate loopholes), you are asking for trouble.

Aaawwww, but illegal activities that involve elaborate loopholes are the best!

In all seriousness, you're absolutely right. I'm just trying to figure ways to keep things going. After all, these laws are supposed to be protecting the species, when I think many of us agree, they will do quite the opposite.

 

[Aleetist]

Now that I'm done complaining, I actually had an idea and wanted to lob it up here to see if those of you have a bit better understanding than I do of this can tell me if it will work.

Let's pretend I breed my P. smithi could I just send the eggs/small slings off to several breeders/sellers in several other states paying for shipping, let's say 10-20 per shipment. Now could they legally sell the stock intrastate if they received the spiders for free? In return, not obligated, but out of understanding it's in the sellers best interest that receive these for free, could they send me back eggs/spiders for free from their successful sacks that I can then sell intrastate?

I'm not trying to think of ways to circumvent interstate law, but ways to work within it and wonder if a network of egg/sling gifting would be permissible as outlined above?

I think that a breeder/seller who never participates in the send back would not be required to, but could be shunned by the community as a result and not be sent anything in the future. It would still require an upfront loss and hopes that people aren't jerks, but less of a loss and with potential for eggs/slings in the future. Maybe?

 

[MetalMan2004]

Now that I'm done complaining, I actually had an idea and wanted to lob it up here to see if those of you have a bit better understanding than I do of this can tell me if it will work.

Let's pretend I breed my P. smithi could I just send the eggs/small slings off to several breeders/sellers in several other states paying for shipping, let's say 10-20 per shipment. Now could they legally sell the stock intrastate if they received the spiders for free? In return, not obligated, but out of understanding it's in the sellers best interest that receive these for free, could they send me back eggs/spiders for free from their successful sacks that I can then sell intrastate?

I'm not trying to think of ways to circumvent interstate law, but ways to work within it and wonder if a network of egg/sling gifting would be permissible as outlined above?

I think that a breeder/seller who never participates in the send back would not be required to, but could be shunned by the community as a result and not be sent anything in the future. It would still require an upfront loss and hopes that people aren't jerks, but less of a loss and with potential for eggs/slings in the future. Maybe?

I’m picturing a fun secret santa type Christmas game based on this. Everyone who signs up must have a Poec on the list that they’re willing to give to the next person in line. No one is receiving from the person they are sending to so its all gifts. You just don’t know which of the 5 species you’ll get!

 

[lostbrane]

Breeding loans are still a ok. So, you can send your MM over or vice versa and send/get slings back and then sell intrastate.

As to a whole secret santa type thing, sure why not?

 

[MissouriArachnophile]

Seems like people need to find breeds in their own states then, if it is going to prevent cross state border sales. Mainly online internet sales will be hit the hardest and convention sales of those species. Unfortunately alot of states might not have these species breed within their state borders.

 

[MissouriArachnophile]

Good thing I'm not planning on breeding then. Just wondering if breeders might look into this to see if it's a loophole

Doesn't say you can't sell within your own state, and aren't tarantulas sold misidentified half the time anyway. Are they going to have someone verify every species that is shipped?

 

[MintyWood826]

aren't tarantulas sold misidentified half the time anyway.

Slackwater Reptiles = yes
Reputable breeders = NO

 

[Liquifin]

So breeding loans are fine, but is trading T.'s for these species legal or no?

 

[khil]

I like how we're treated like criminals for keeping spiders in jars inside our own homes. Not to mention this, if anything, will have a negative impact on the long term survival of these species. Environmentalists are insanely totalitarian and dangerously uneducated when it comes to petkeeping laws.

 

[lostbrane]

Emailed USFWS to see if they’re doing anything in terms of assisting the conservation of the listed species. The rep told me that they didn’t know of anything but that they’d add in someone from International Affairs who might know something more.
It’s not like I was expecting anything, especially due to the budget constraints they’re dealing with but still...

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

They should more strict on imports into the US of these rather than banning interstate sales. Actually, they should SUPPORT captive breeding and selling across the country! Then smuggling into the US will go down.(Not that it's high anyway...yet <-- because of law) Why would you smuggle if there are plenty of lower priced spiders already in the country?

Sounds to me like another poorly written law must to either collect revenue, or restrict freedom. It would have no effect on what’s enters the borders .
Very many ocean species are going extinct and the worlds government have done nothing, land species won’t be any different.
Border smuggling happens a ton, captive spiders should not be a part of this law .
Should be ABle to captive breed them legally not held in by borders of state .

Hope for then recovery of this species hope someone who is an arachnologist or lawyer can right a petition to allow captive bred specimens to cross state lines.

 

[khil]

Everyone hear about the big news about spix's macaw being extinct in the wild? Literally the only reason they exist at all is because of hobbyists breeding them in captivity. Most of the macaws that are going to Germany originally were bought from collectors in Switzerland and 1 big guy in the Philippines. The Philippino guy might have had quite an impact on the population when he got them originally. but I am pretty sure they would have been extinct anyway. The habitat destruction was just too big. So he actually saved the species in the long run. I would say that this species exists today because of the action of 3-5 individuals who decided to do the right thing.

You can read on the species' wikipedia page to see how habitat destruction, burning, agriculture truly devastated the species. It was on it's way out anyway-captive breeding saved it. Same thing for pokies. Not only is this legislation insanely intrusive and nazi-esque, it's downright ignorant.

 

[MintyWood826]

Very many ocean species are going extinct and the worlds government have done nothing

Not nothing.

Everyone hear about the big news about spix's macaw being extinct in the wild? Literally the only reason they exist at all is because of hobbyists breeding them in captivity. Most of the macaws that are going to Germany originally were bought from collectors in Switzerland and 1 big guy in the Philippines. The Philippino guy might have had quite an impact on the population when he got them originally. but I am pretty sure they would have been extinct anyway. The habitat destruction was just too big. So he actually saved the species in the long run. I would say that this species exists today because of the action of 3-5 individuals who decided to do the right thing.

You can read on the species' wikipedia page to see how habitat destruction, burning, agriculture truly devastated the species. It was on it's way out anyway-captive breeding saved it. Same thing for pokies. Not only is this legislation insanely intrusive and nazi-esque, it's downright ignorant.

Just read an article on those...I am fully expecting something like that to happen to these Pokies, but with the difference of not as many sad people because it's spiders and not birds.

 

[MantisSpider29]

What does this mean for P.rufilata? Will they be put on this list soon as well?

 

[lostbrane]

P. rufilata will eventually be put under the protections of the ESA. It and 5 other species were listed in the original petition. Due to budget constraints it didn’t get added to the latest decision, as well as the other Indian species.