Hysterocrates hercules Research

[Paul Osullivan]

Hey Ooya! I really enjoyed reading your blog on your website and it's nice that you want to educate the hobbyists of Japan about Hysterocrates species very well done! You seem to be accurate in the gigas/ crassipes comparisons and you have seen the subtle differences at the various life stages between the two species. There are a few more small distinguishing features between the two species (attatched below) that you may want to add, to add futher accuracy to your identifications. Also in H. crassipes, Pocock describes - "palp tarsus more tumid above at base" when compared to other species. I haven't photographed this in detail but the palp tarsus in H. crassipes does appear more tumid/ swollen at it's base when compared to gigas (seen in the picture also). I will add a clearer photo of this soon, but heres some other characteristics if you wanted to educate further..


Also, the lower sigilae in H. crassipes is very distinctly larger over the one above.

Your Hercules female does look very impressive and your blog about the Hercules spider is quite interesting also. I had to translate it, but I was able to understand it. I would add as I believe on the eyes it's the area in front of the eyes that's most important and the layout of the eye's themselves are variable in species. So the clypeus area in front of the eyes is the area of importance in it's shape and space from the eyes and possibly the hair length/ arrangement covering the chelicerae. I'm not sure if you have thae same species as me, although some features do look alike.

I do have to mention I haven't had my spiders "officially identified" although this I plan to do soon. I have based the identification on the evedence I have obtained in my 6 years of research. I did think that both your males look very different to mine and you have said yourself this is "variability within the species". But I would say both your males were different species to mine as there is much difference in it's appearance and the bulbs also look different which is a stable marker to rely upon..


On the larger female, prehaps you could take some photos of leg 4's meta-tarsus and compare to laticeps and hercules to see which one it looks alike too, as they are both distinctly different..

I have taken some pictures of the tarsus of the palp in Gigas and Crassipes. The difference is very subtle, but noticeable and this is another good bit of work by Pocock and how he has noticed and documented the tarsus being slightly swollen of the palp in Crassipes. (These two spider moults were as close to exactly the same size at 6 inches)

 

[ooya]

Hello friends

Indeed, as you say, my large H. hercules male specimens look different than your H. hercules males.
However, the current male, the offspring of that big male, is small and has many similarities to your male.
I'm going to take a look at the details when I die after breeding.
And as you said, I took a comparison of Hysterocrates' 1st step and 4th step.
In addition, there are also H. gigas and H. crassipes.
Please take a look.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Hey Ooya. Yea I do still think you likely have all the same species and probably H. laticeps. I did think that this this male also looks alike to your other males. It is very difficult to tell them apart, but we are learning the differences as we go along.

Also your larger "Hercules" maybe showing some similarities in it's 4th leg to true Hercules and it's easy to think it is this species. It's just the small details all show a similarity to H. laticeps more than Hercules, (E.g as seen previously the unique shape of the clypeus) and also shown here, the 4th meta tarsus shows similarities to laticeps. (Also it was hard to see if the patella and tibia were matching to my spiders as the cut should be from the femur down and not cut at the patella and would be best to put both legs closer together). Maybe take some more pictures of the 4th meta-tarsus? But I think it does look to match Laticeps mostly. As I think I mentioned I would be happy for you to own one of my bigger female spiders for your collection if you wanted

 

[Paul Osullivan]

I can see what you mean about the male being similar. The only difference I can see is in the 1st and 4th femur. It looks as though (as like the females of laticeps), and here also in this male the 4th leg femur is slender in comparison to the 1st and also the 1st appears slightly more curved/ bulbous at its end, also alike to the female. Where as Hercules the 4th is much more robust and looks equal to the 1st. Also, the shape of the front of the carapace (caput area) is different as we saw before.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Hey All, Just some new information and a short clip of the spider that Steve watched.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

This has to be the biggest Mature male I have raised so far! Like the female, this species has a much calmer temperament over the other more defensive Hysterocrates species. I would estimate his diagonal leg span, could maybe even be close to seven inches.. Enjoy!

Here is also some recent facebook posts, of some of my research that will be included
in my finished book..

Facebook

www.facebook.com

Facebook

www.facebook.com

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Here is one of my largest spiders, she is the one that was shown previously that @Steve Nunn confirmed it was alike to the one he saw close Jebba, Nigeria. You can see how big her body is getting now, compared to her leg span and I'm sure you can start to appreciate why I have always thought that this could very well be the real Hercules species..

 

[xenesthis]

Now, post-molt...thoughts on the species ID?

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Now, post-molt...thoughts on the species ID?

View attachment 456043

Hi Xenesthis. She looks amazing. I'm not really qualified to say about it's true identity, but if I had to label it anything it would be Hysterocrates giags I would say, although you may want to keep the 'Niger delta' lable as it was sold as this, but it could be from anywhere as we know! But my hunch would be H. gigas. She seems to have a slight thickness to leg 4 still after this molt, but in a H. crassipes I would expect to hold more thickness and length to leg 4, with a smaller carapace. Here is my H. gigas that I think looks similar to yours and also a short presentation on the difference between gigas and crassipes.

 

[xenesthis]

Agreed as these "Niger Delta" have a slight H. gigas look with the longer leg 4 (bowed look) ruling out H. laticeps and too large of a carapace for H. crassipes. They do have a "greenish" look to the carapace different from Cameroon H. gigas. These might prove to be a different species in the genus. I'm breeding 3 females this week. I'll keep the ND name on them for now. Some have went far and called them H. hercules, but that is not correct.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Agreed as these "Niger Delta" have a slight H. gigas look with the longer leg 4 (bowed look) ruling out H. laticeps and too large of a carapace for H. crassipes. They do have a "greenish" look to the carapace different from Cameroon H. gigas. These might prove to be a different species in the genus. I'm breeding 3 females this week. I'll keep the ND name on them for now. Some have went far and called them H. hercules, but that is not correct.

That's true, H. laticeps also have as longer slender 4th femur compared to the 1st. That's an interesting spot about the 'Greenish tinge' and could very well be different to the gigas from Cameroon but it would be best to compare some of the features to the Holotype/ Andrews descriptions to one's know to be from Cameroon to see if they differ, as they very well could do!

I know someone with this species here and I will probably end up doing some sort of basic examination like I have done on this thread, to see if it's the same or different. Although, I have learned it really is quite difficult to do all this. But at first glance, you would think the were very alike to H. gigas if not identical, but prehaps the microscope may reveal differences., so it's good you have kept that name and good luck with your breeding

 

[ooya]

Long time no see.
My friend

My female H. hercules has passed away, but if you are considering reclassifying this species, I would like to have my specimen delayed by international mail.
A large female specimen and a small adult male specimen.
What do you think? ?

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Long time no see.
View attachment 458065 My friend

My female H. hercules has passed away, but if you are considering reclassifying this species, I would like to have my specimen delayed by international mail.
A large female specimen and a small adult male specimen.
What do you think? ?

Hi Ooya, it's nice to hear from you, but not in the best of circumstances. I am very sorry your Hercules has died suddenly like this. I wonder what has caused this.

I'm sorry do you mean that you want to send your Hercules female and male in international freight? It would be good also to see how this one compares to the others and help identify them sure

Ooya.. here's some amazing pictures of my biggest c.f Hercules that has shed again! Incredibly, she molted twice in the time 3 others, half her size, have been in pre molt! Her genetics are making her grow super quick! (This is the same one that I have posted recently - from the clip that Steve Nunn saw).

These pictures should dispel any doubt that this, along with my detailed findings - show it's most likely the real Hysterocrates hercules..

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Here whitey exotics, recives two huge Hercules males please check them out!!

Also, a nice comparison clip of specimen sized Hysterocrates..

It has come to my attention, thanks to whitey exotics of a mature male 8"+ holotype of Hysterocrates apostolicus (described in A.Smiths Baboon spiders book) so I will draw this out to see how this looks!

 

[Paul Osullivan]

The main difference between Hysterocrates sp. goliath and Hysterocrates c.f hercules is the thickness to leg 4. Sp. goliath look to be most alike to Hysterocrates gigas (but a 4th generation selective bred species) with a broader 4th leg. Seen in both juvenile and S/a stages..



C.f Hercules has a shorter, slimmer 4th and this slimness is also seen throughout all life stages (alike to laticeps). C.f hercules really do hold a lot of weight to it, with it's huge carapace and compact body size. Where as sp. goliath look to be slightly longer legged.

.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Here is the sketch of the mature male of Hysterocrates apostolicus found on Sao Tome island. These measurements were taken from A. Smiths Baboon spiders book. This has an even bigger carapace (24x25mm) and leg span (8" 3/4). Than the Male of Phoneyusa bidentata with a carapace of 20x25mm and a 8" leg span!

 

[xenesthis]

I unpacked the ONLY import of H. apostolicus, H. didymus, H. scepticus, and Phoneyusa manicata into the U.S. back in the day and the H. scepticus were more massive with one female's leg span measuring near 8.75". See: https://www.exotic-animals.org/pajki/opis_vrst/nove_vrste_14/Hysterocrates_scepticus/index01.htm

 

[Paul Osullivan]

I unpacked the ONLY import of H. apostolicus, H. didymus, H. scepticus, and Phoneyusa manicata into the U.S. back in the day and the H. scepticus were more massive with one female's leg span measuring near 8.75". See: https://www.exotic-animals.org/pajki/opis_vrst/nove_vrste_14/Hysterocrates_scepticus/index01.htm

Oh wow, that's interesting to know! Amazing! Do you have any pictures of the other species at all? Were any of the males as big as this H. apostolicus?

Yes the female Scepticus would be a similar legspan to this male, but looks to be built mych bigger.

 

[xenesthis]

Sorry, no pics except the link to the H. scepticus adult female. Look at the size of that carapace!

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Sorry, no pics except the link to the H. scepticus adult female. Look at the size of that carapace!

Awsome, yea it's massive for sure! That's a shame about the others. There is very little new literature or even pictures of these animals, maybe one day we will see something again.

Hre is something from my book you may find interesting.. do you think this is the same H. scepticus species?