Hysterocrates hercules Research

[xenesthis]

You need to contact RobRoy MacInnes (formerly of Glades Herp) now Glades Reptiles to get pics and stories about that import.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

You need to contact RobRoy MacInnes (formerly of Glades Herp) now Glades Reptiles to get pics and stories about that import.

Ok sure, Yep I have contacted Rob-Roy for use of his pictures in my book. Unfortunately he had nothing more to add or pictures. Bit it says in the description the males were reaching 8 inches, Just like hysterocrates apostolicus. Maybe one day we will see them again.

Also, just a clip of a time lapse of one of my bigger spiders shedding

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Just thought to leave some of me and my Nigerian friends conversation here, to show you my efforts to successfully complete my research. I'm currently funding a spider enthusiast from Lagos to do some collection/ research around the area of Jebba Nigeria. To study the specimens of Hysterocrates where the Holotype was found. I'm sure you'd agree this will be relieving and exiting to see and for many the only way to ever solve the Hercules mystery..

A first failed attempt led to local insurgents holding captive and ransoming my contacts employed 'hunters' and their transport was taken and destroyed far away from their homes. I felt very bad for this outcome, although they were willing to help in the quest for this spider. Communication now lost.

A second attempt was cut short and my contact was forced home early with life threatening maleria. Many large jars were left with the local farmers who now need to somehow collect some spiders without drawing attention to my contacts interests in the area.
Now unfortunately, the search has been diverted away from the target location of Jebba..

Things as you would expect haven't gone smoothly and it would seem a near impossible and dangerous task, even today and even for the local people, let alone non native researchers. To step foot around the area of Jebba, let alone safely and successfully study it's fauna and return home..

If I'm unable to source any specimens to study from the Jebba area. Then I hope the value of my Tarantula specimens and research would be realised. As these possibly will be the only specimens that will ever likely to be sourced from this dangerous area, bar the Holotype specimen a century ago..

I'm currently awaiting help from the genetic Dr. Soarise Foley (if anyone who sees this and who knows her. Please could you get her to contact myself) as we discussed her comparing genetic data of my specimens and to the holotype (although it would seem, a very old and deteriorated type specimen may now hold little value in what once could have been useful genetic data). This I have been told may aid/ complete my identification/ compliment my current findings. Athough Soarise felt 'standard morphology' was equally, if not more important in this case given the age of the type specimen. I will also send R. Gallon some specimens for his opinions in the near future..

I just had to put some perspective on this.

Thanks,

 

[angelarachnid]

I'm currently awaiting help from the genetic Dr. Soarise Foley (if anyone who sees this and who knows her. Please could you get her to contact myself) as we discussed her comparing genetic data of my specimens and to the holotype (although it would seem, a very old and deteriorated type specimen may now hold little value in what once could have been useful genetic data). This I have been told may aid/ complete my identification/ compliment my current findings. Athough Soarise felt 'standard morphology' was equally, if not more important in this case given the age of the type specimen. I will also send R. Gallon some specimens for his opinions in the near future..

You do not have access to the NHM collection and neither you nor anyone else will be allowed to vandalise the almost complete and perfectly preserved holotype specimen of H. hercules (picture in BTS journal a couple of years back) just so you can to try and sell spiders...that is not what they are for.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

You do not have access to the NHM collection and neither you nor anyone else will be allowed to vandalise the almost complete and perfectly preserved holotype specimen of H. hercules (picture in BTS journal a couple of years back) just so you can to try and sell spiders...that is not what they are for.

I understand that. I did ask around for some help as I wanted to further my research and possibly draw some sort of conclusion into the true identity of these spiders I have raised. You mentioned 'an expert' could examine the Holotype and thoght someone like Soarise would be more than qualified to examine the Holotype without damaging it. I understand the Holotypes are mainly for other research, but could it be used as a one off to be directly compared to a living specimen for this identification surely? Or it seems like you would rather not let that happen, just to stop me from selling any of these spiders or to stop me from making a complete identification of my specimens. I guess you don't want me to be proven right it would seem..

I'm sure anyone in my position of accidentally acquiring a breeding line of tarantulas that appear different to the one's we already have in the hobby and wanting to study and identify them. I'm sure yes, eventually would want to sell them and hey why not!? After successfully breeding and raising 4 different sacs of this species and converting my home into a breeding establishment. Not only to make a bit of money like everyone else that breeds spiders, but to also establish them as a rare, genuine wild origin and separate species for the hobby and quite possibly the spider of many peoples dreams..

I think it was good fortune that I had come across them and I was able to notice these were a separate species to the other Hysterocrates and I took the time to study and prepare them to hopefully one day be in many peoples collections. I think most people wouldn't have realized them as being different and this opportunity would have been lost.

I haven't shown all my research, but I assure you I have done as much as I could do to identify this spider from someone in my position, using Andrews and Pococks work in combination revealing some fascinating discoveries. I can understand why I would be taunted, laughed at and made to feel like I'm a no-body and I did get upset at peoples responses towards myself all over a tarantula. All I wanted was some interest or enthusiasm or a bit of help to finish what most will not be able to see, but a book I have spent 6 years learning and writing and that I'm extremely proud of. I try to explain my situation and thought you would offer more guidance and would want to help me uncover things that I'm sure even yourself would want to know especially as an expert surely?? You do keep messaging my threads, so you must have some interest in what I have done and discovered, unless you just want to make me to feel like giving up on what I have worked hard to achieve, which isn't considered a decent human thing to do let's be honest. Also, your condescending remarks maybe true and blunt to some extent, but seem a little un-called for as its also been mentioned by Whitey towards him with his project.

Anyhow the Hercules has eight legs and I've been told only one leg would be needed to get some genetic data on, so I'm sure it could spare one and given the unlikelyness of further collection this maybe the only opportunity in our lifetimes to do this. In all seriousness, you seem like you would be able to help me and I would accept any help, if not please could you comment only positive or helpful remarks or leave me to finish what I have started and let people make up their own minds about what these spiders may or may not be..

 

[xenesthis]

Spider hobby drama...oh my! Are were not entertained yet?

On a serious note Paul, I've enjoyed this thread, but when you say "Anyhow the Hercules has eight legs and I've been told only one leg would be needed to get some genetic data on, so I'm sure it could spare one and given the unlikelyness of further collection this maybe the only opportunity in our lifetimes to do this"....that sounds very problematic. What if 7 more hobbyists wanted to "take a leg" for personal study? We would never have the holotype in the museum or nothing else could be kept in a museum if that was allowed to happen. I love your interest in this species, but that request will fail terribly.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Spider hobby drama...oh my! Are were not entertained yet?

On a serious note Paul, I've enjoyed this thread, but when you say "Anyhow the Hercules has eight legs and I've been told only one leg would be needed to get some genetic data on, so I'm sure it could spare one and given the unlikelyness of further collection this maybe the only opportunity in our lifetimes to do this"....that sounds very problematic. What if 7 more hobbyists wanted to "take a leg" for personal study? We would never have the holotype in the museum or nothing else could be kept in a museum if that was allowed to happen. I love your interest in this species, but that request will fail terribly.

Thanks Xenesthis. I appreciate your interest. I don't usually react in such a way, but I'm just writing what I feel I should.

I'm thinking along the lines of just taking a sample once and a tiny piece of the inside of the leg would be all that's needed I have been told. That doesn't seem to much to ask really. But I think it's more just to stop me from completing my research. However I'm confident it's 'standard morphology' in its entirety would be enough to prove it's identification, hence the book to be studied by people interested. But I would just like to be sure, with the genetic data.

 

[Brewser]

I understand that. I did ask around for some help as I wanted to further my research and possibly draw some sort of conclusion into the true identity of these spiders I have raised. You mentioned 'an expert' could examine the Holotype and thoght someone like Soarise would be more than qualified to examine the Holotype without damaging it. I understand the Holotypes are mainly for other research, but could it be used as a one off to be directly compared to a living specimen for this identification surely? Or it seems like you would rather not let that happen, just to stop me from selling any of these spiders or to stop me from making a complete identification of my specimens. I guess you don't want me to be proven right it would seem..

I'm sure anyone in my position of accidentally acquiring a breeding line of tarantulas that appear different to the one's we already have in the hobby and wanting to study and identify them. I'm sure yes, eventually would want to sell them and hey why not!? After successfully breeding and raising 4 different sacs of this species and converting my home into a breeding establishment. Not only to make a bit of money like everyone else that breeds spiders, but to also establish them as a rare, genuine wild origin and separate species for the hobby and quite possibly the spider of many peoples dreams..

I think it was good fortune that I had come across them and I was able to notice these were a separate species to the other Hysterocrates and I took the time to study and prepare them to hopefully one day be in many peoples collections. I think most people wouldn't have realized them as being different and this opportunity would have been lost.

I haven't shown all my research, but I assure you I have done as much as I could do to identify this spider from someone in my position, using Andrews and Pococks work in combination revealing some fascinating discoveries. I can understand why I would be taunted, laughed at and made to feel like I'm a no-body and I did get upset at peoples responses towards myself all over a tarantula. All I wanted was some interest or enthusiasm or a bit of help to finish what most will not be able to see, but a book I have spent 6 years learning and writing and that I'm extremely proud of. I try to explain my situation and thought you would offer more guidance and would want to help me uncover things that I'm sure even yourself would want to know especially as an expert surely?? You do keep messaging my threads, so you must have some interest in what I have done and discovered, unless you just want to make me to feel like giving up on what I have worked hard to achieve, which isn't considered a decent human thing to do let's be honest. Also, your condescending remarks maybe true and blunt to some extent, but seem a little un-called for as its also been mentioned by Whitey towards him with his project.

Anyhow the Hercules has eight legs and I've been told only one leg would be needed to get some genetic data on, so I'm sure it could spare one and given the unlikelyness of further collection this maybe the only opportunity in our lifetimes to do this. In all seriousness, you seem like you would be able to help me and I would accept any help, if not please could you comment only positive or helpful remarks or leave me to finish what I have started and let people make up their own minds about what these spiders may or may not be..

I was lucky enough to receive a Captive Born 3/4 inch Spiderling a month ago from the Spider Shoppe listed as Hysterocrates Sp Niger Delta (Niger Delta Red Baboon)
Mother obviously Wild Captive.
Is this possibly "Hercules" in someway?
Ive heard people claim H. Gigas and H. Laticeps as the "Legendary Hero"

 

[xenesthis]

I was lucky enough to receive a Captive Born 1/2 inch Spiderling a month ago from the Spider Shoppe listed as Hysterocrates Sp Niger Delta (Niger Delta Red Baboon)
Mother obviously Wild Captive.
Is this possibly "Hercules" in someway?
Ive heard people claim H. Gigas and H. Laticeps as the "Legendary Hero"

the "Niger Delta" has been debated here in 2023 and it appears to be one of the following:
• form of H. gigas
• unidentified Hysterocrates sp. closely allied with H. gigas
It is not true H. Hercules. Leg 4 are too long and thick for it to be the legendary Hercules.

 

[Brewser]

Am I correct in assuming that Hysterocrates Sp Hercules is " A Missing Link " in the Hysterocrates Genus, based on One Specimen being preserved in a Jar somewhere?
Are there No Live Specimins in the Hobby?
Very Interesting?
If So, I'm packing My bags and off on Safari to Darkest Africa.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Am I correct in assuming that Hysterocrates Sp Hercules is " A Missing Link " in the Hysterocrates Genus, based on One Specimen being preserved in a Jar somewhere?
Are there No Live Specimins in the Hobby?
Very Interesting?
If So, I'm packing My bags and off on Safari to Darkest Africa.

Haha, I would carefully read all 6 pages of this thread before doing that! Ok so with regards to the Niger delta species.. I think 'Xenesthis' is right with it looking almost identical to H. gigas.. This is a must read for you.. (Please click)

Hysterocrates sp. "Niger Delta"....cf. hercules ???

Take a look at this beauty! Hysterocrates sp. "Niger Delta Note some observations that are different from the last 10 yrs. of West African imports of Hysterocrates species which as mainly been of H. gigas, H. crassipes, and H. laticeps. 1) Coloration is much lighter. 2) Legs 4 are only...

arachnoboards.com

Here's a map of known location collections of the hysterocrates species. I personally believe and I have much evidence to suggest that the real Hercules is separate and distinct from Gigas, Crassipes, Laticeps, Sp. Benin and Sp. Niger delta and a bigger spider too. It's also found further north, nearer the equator in dryer habitat in Jebba.



It could well be that the Hercules holotype is the only one outside of its home of Jebba, Nigeria. However you should here me out..

There was once this tarantula that "Whitey exotics" had in his collection that appeared around 2013 and after raising them myself today they appear to be identical. These he had were known to be collected "somewhere close to Jebba" and so there was a chance this was the real Hercules. (Given how some species can colonise a huge area) and the dry savannah grassland habitat around Jebba is the same.. covering hundreds if not thousands of square miles and could support this theory.
Take a look and see it next to Hysterocrates gigas.

The thin leg remains through its life unlike Gigas and Crassipes which have a thicker leg 4 until it gets big. But alike to Laticeps its legs 4 remains thin through its life but it's different to Laticeps..

I have written a book about all this for my interest and for others to seek some sort of truth or conclusion from. I have managed to spot the similarities in the spermathicae in mine and the holotypes drawing by Andrew Smith, the unique spine pattern in between the palp Coxa and Trochanter, both species specific identifying markers and also many other unique matching identifying features all unique to the one Hercules species all combined to what I believe could well be a positive identification.

For me I have put in the research, time, money and hard work, as well as the work of experts in the use of their equipment and Volker Von Wirth's expertise in preparing the important Spermaticae for comparison. From what I can see everything just adds up.. Where it was known to be found, ALL the identifying features, plus lets be honest you can see this really is a BIG tarantula!! I'm sure you will enjoy my book when it's completed but here's some of the key analysis..

 

[Paul Osullivan]

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[Brewser]

Paul Osullivan, I saw your article.
I've been researching hysterocrates in Japan for a long time and this article is very nice and agrees with what I think!
And I succeeded in breeding this seemingly correct Hysterocrates hercules species!
Your article is incredible and can be described as a revolution in the previously uncollected hysterocrates spiders!

I will refer to my Hysterocrates hercules.
1: Hy. Hercules female
2: Hy. Hercules female & egg
3: Hy. Hercules male
4: Hy. Hercules male leg span
5: Hy. Hercules male genital
. View attachment 390788 View attachment 390789 View attachment 390790 View attachment 390791 View attachment 390792

Massive ... Magnificent ... Tremendous ... May I say ... Heroic ... Could it be ... I Dare not say ?

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Massive ... Magnificent ... Tremendous ... May I say ... Heroic ... Could it be ... I Dare not say ?

Haha, it's always difficult to tell from photos. I always felt (but I could be wrong) Ooyas specimens were Hysterocrates laticeps. The lighter color, longer leg 4, larger 4th tibia and smaller body in comparison to it's leg span and some other subtle features seem to fit the bill. Also the males bulb was also different looking to what my male 'hercules' have got. It's great your as interested in them as much as I have and a few others have been

 

[Terrovax]

Richard Gallon is currently revising the genus Hysterocrates along with closely related genera. It's futile to use Pocock's and Andrew Smith's papers to try and identify pet trade spiders that don't have reliable location origins. Pocock's and Smith's papers are decent, but they are not works that can make someone come to reliable conclusions on eumenophorine baboons. You should just wait for Gallon's paper to be published with updated redescriptions and classifications to know what you really have.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Richard Gallon is currently revising the genus Hysterocrates along with closely related genera. It's futile to use Pocock's and Andrew Smith's papers to try and identify pet trade spiders that don't have reliable location origins. Pocock's and Smith's papers are decent, but they are not works that can make someone come to reliable conclusions on eumenophorine baboons. You should just wait for Gallon's paper to be published with updated redescriptions and classifications to know what you really have.

That's some fair points that I will take on board and I will certainly look forward to any new litearature. I'm by no means an expert on anything to do with taxonomy, biology or genetics, but I'm giving my research my best and I'm sure you can appreciate what I have tried to do with what is available to me at the moment and with what I would agree is a vague collection location. Just two small pieces to a big puzzle.

Prehaps one day, Richard will reveal more about this spider/ the holotype. I do feel Andrews drawings offer a significant ammount detail and crucial identitfying features examined, but maybe yea in terms of ground work and collecting and examining more specimens across Nigeria, It seems very little research has been carried out unfortunately.

I have prepared a male and female specimen preserved in ethanol as instructed by A.Smith, that I will give to Richard or his associates to hand to him this year. As Andrew is keen to hear his opinion on the spider. I guess until then I won't be posting much more unless it's an update from Richard and hopefully some form of conclusion.

Cheers.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Long time no see.
View attachment 458065 My friend

My female H. hercules has passed away, but if you are considering reclassifying this species, I would like to have my specimen delayed by international mail.
A large female specimen and a small adult male specimen.
What do you think? ?

Hi Ooya, I thought to mention that I'm hoping to send R. Gallon my specimens of Hysterocrates and you suggested to also have yours examined? Prehaps you could send those to me and I will prepare them to send to R. Gallon? Thanks

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

That's some fair points that I will take on board and I will certainly look forward to any new litearature. I'm by no means an expert on anything to do with taxonomy, biology or genetics, but I'm giving my research my best and I'm sure you can appreciate what I have tried to do with what is available to me at the moment and with what I would agree is a vague collection location. Just two small pieces to a big puzzle.

Prehaps one day, Richard will reveal more about this spider/ the holotype. I do feel Andrews drawings offer a significant ammount detail and crucial identitfying features examined, but maybe yea in terms of ground work and collecting and examining more specimens across Nigeria, It seems very little research has been carried out unfortunately.

I have prepared a male and female specimen preserved in ethanol as instructed by A.Smith, that I will give to Richard or his associates to hand to him this year. As Andrew is keen to hear his opinion on the spider. I guess until then I won't be posting much more unless it's an update from Richard and hopefully some form of conclusion.

Cheers.

I’m sure people have tried to find Hercules in Africa. But it’s just too dangerous in some parts or everywhere , as you figured out. Best of luck !

 

[Arachno32]

Interestingly, i saw a comment from one of the leading researchers on African therophids that it is a little known fact that H. hercules is actually not the largest African species. It is in fact a Phoneyusa species.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Interestingly, i saw a comment from one of the leading researchers on African therophids that it is a little known fact that H. hercules is actually not the largest African species. It is in fact a Phoneyusa species.

maybe because they can still be found but sadly aren’t in USA pet hobby.
Has anyone actually found a Real H. hercules since the one that was bottled? Pretty much all the ones and the pet trade that claim to be Hercules are gigas or other Hysterocrates sp..
Real H. hercules is pretty much a myth of a spider rivaling the goliath bird eater.