Hysterocrates hercules Research

[Arachno32]

maybe because they can still be found but sadly aren’t in USA pet hobby.
Has anyone actually found a Real H. hercules since the one that was bottled? Pretty much all the ones and the pet trade that claim to be Hercules are gigas or other Hysterocrates sp..

This was based on the type specimen of a Phoneyusa spp being larger than the only known real H. hercules specimen that is kept the london natural history museum

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

This was based on the type specimen of a Phoneyusa spp being larger than the only known real H. hercules specimen that is kept the london natural history museum

Yeah think I heard rumors of that genus I just wasn’t too familiar with it and can’t find any information looking it up.
It must be a real large tarantula and impressive!!
Unlikely to make it into the hobby but if h gigas did it’s not impossible.
Lasiodora were rumored to be big up to 10” when I first started keeping Ts but none of mine ever got past 7-8”. Just as an example of size rumors not a baboon spider.

 

[Arachno32]

Yeah think I heard rumors of that genus I just wasn’t too familiar with it and can’t find any information looking it up.
It must be a real large tarantula and impressive!!
Unlikely to make it into the hobby but if h gigas did it’s not impossible.
Lasiodora were rumored to be big up to 10” when I first started keeping Ts but none of mine ever got past 7-8”. Just as an example of size rumors not a baboon spider.

I dont think there are many willing people that will venture into the heart of the Congo basin to collect spiders

 

[Brewser]

Hercules is Strong... Goliath is Giant...
Size doesn't really matter anyway, According to My Girlfriend.

 

[Glorfindel]

I dont think there are many willing people that will venture into the heart of the Congo basin to collect spiders

I believe that Region of Africa is in a War Zone.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

This was based on the type specimen of a Phoneyusa spp being larger than the only known real H. hercules specimen that is kept the london natural history museum

I did post this a few pages ago, although with the length of the thread it would have been easily missed! I was given information on Phoneyusa chevalieri as being bigger than Hysterocrates hercules, by Angelaarachnid who said with great confidence it was bigger, although my scale drawings prove its not!

I'm unsure if this was the same Phoneyusa sp, you speak of, Angela seems to be quite knowledgeable and theres a good chance P. chevalieri was the one. Although not as knowledgeable about the Hercules specimen as the real Hercules will take some beating..



Also, drawing out specimen's from specific measurements can really give a good idea about the size and form of the species. Individual specimens do generally look about the same within the species, but generally with the females oppose to mature males where there is more variability. I also have evedence to confirm as good as a 100% match to the individual carapace and leg measurements, when I compared my specimen to the holotype using a set scale up ratio - see below.

It's just one little piece of evedence to add to what the real H. hercules does in fact look like, when compared to other species and its nessecary to compare the measurements and ratios to the known holotypes. Here for example in Hercules, the carapace is quite distinctive, larger and oval in shape with a shorter leg span and generally a stronger spider and very unique compared to other Hysterocrates. Where as P. chevalieri is more leggier with a more rounded carapace shape, a similar build to Hysterocrates laticeps prehaps?

 

[angelarachnid]

This was based on the type specimen of a Phoneyusa spp being larger than the only known real H. hercules specimen that is kept the london natural history museum

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Ah wow, this one looks quite a big size! Do you know the measurements of this specimen? It looks larger than the one recorded in Andrews Baboon spiders book..



It would be good to draw it on paper if the measurements were available. I have a little too much time on my hands as you will see here.. I layered the two scale bars over each other to match and to give the best comparison to H. hercules and its a close match..

 

[angelarachnid]

37.5mm carapace ... bigger than hercules ... for some reason the chevalier pic wont upload?

 

[Glorfindel]

37.5mm carapace ... bigger than hercules ... for some reason the chevalier pic wont upload?

Why is the Size of Chevalier versus Hercules Relevant? Just Curious?

 

[Arachno32]

Why is the Size of Chevalier versus Hercules Relevant? Just Curious?

Because it will determine what species is the largest African theraphosid and likely largest Old world species

 

[Glorfindel]

Because it will determine what species is the largest African theraphosid and likely largest Old world species

If These Two Species are so Close in Size... It might be that a Specimen from other Strains, other Regions etc. May be found to be the Champion. I Assume P. Chevalier is the Current known Record Holder? BTW what a Great Name for a Champion Tarantula "Chevalier" Knightly for Sure.

 

[angelarachnid]

try again ... took ages to find it again

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Really interesting. That does look like a huge spider! Thanks for posting that and sorry if I mentioned that you weren't knowledgeable of the Hercules. I guess this one takes the cake!

If These Two Species are so Close in Size... It might be that a Specimen from other Strains, other Regions etc. May be found to be the Champion. I Assume P. Chevalier is the Current known Record Holder? BTW what a Great Name for a Champion Tarantula "Chevalier" Knightly for Sure.

This is Whiteys Hysterocrates "hercules" that was collected close to Jebba. It looks like this has grown passed the size of the Hercules Holotype and should be a serious rival as the Holotype I'm willing to bet isn't fully grown. "Pound for pound" Hercules does look a bigger/ heavier spider than even P. Chevalier going by my scale drawing. The bigger specimen with the 37.5 mm carapace must be a older specimen.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

I just thought to add this information regarding the recent publication of Hysterocrates celerierae. A new specimen was found over 380km away (NNW) from Bouna Park, Cote d’Ivoire, (Original collection location) and R. Gallon had identified this new specimen as being the same species as Hysterocrates celeriae. The habitat is similar and this proves that some species of Hysterocrates can colonise huge areas.

This can add some assurity that these Hysterocrates 'C.f' hercules that were "found close to Jebba" could very well stem from the original Hercules specimen and likely this one species could potentially be found across a huge area - alike to Hysterocrates celeriae. It was commented regarding Hysterocrates celeriae in the recent Bariev & Sherwood publication of 2024 - as being unsurprising to be found over 380 km away, due to it being in a similar habitat. Proving some Hysterocrates species can colonise huge areas, providing it has a suitable habitat.

The similar habitat and colonisation of Hysterocrates celeriae could support a similar idea of Hysterocrates hercules colonising a huge area and being found much further away than just Jebba.

The bottom map proposes and shows a 380km area where Hysterocrates hercules may have colonised, given the recent distribution findings of Hysterocrates celeriae, but likely remaining in the same (light green color) grassland habitat, but within the blue circle.

 

[Scolopeon]

try again ... took ages to find it again

Do you have the measurements for it?

got that it has a 37.5mm carapace, how wide?
Want these measurements also:
palp,
Leg 1
Leg 2
Leg 3
Leg 4

Overall body length including chelicerae

 

[Spyderdune]

To be honest, if a spider has these Four VERY UNIQUE/ KEY features (attatched) that's described only to H. HERCULES by Pocock and are NOT seen and described for any other Hysterocrates. You have to think this must be it, or at least a close relative to it and indeed the type specimen? The chances of a spider having these features on top of all the others described like mine (and possibly a few others I have seen) and not for it to be it is near impossible. It should be labled at the very least - H. Hercules (regional variation) or similar as it most closely matches this description than to the others (e.g gigas, crassipes etc).

There are also other sources that have H. Hercules pictures in the "Common Hysterocrates features" file on this shared folder and the file "key Hercules features" explains more unique features to H. Hercules.. thanks I hope you find this interesting ..

Hercules/

Shared via MobiDrive

mobidrive.com

Below the four "key features" attachments are different "hercules" from different sources and I would have to agree for them all to be H. Hercules from the unique features seen.. Surely one or all of these had to be labelled "hercules" from a knowledgable expert and maybe was compared to the type specimen and would be "IT". Though with the many unique features of H. Hercules, It didn't need to be compared, as the many unique features were present on the same spider and it was then a case of finding out where it came from and agreeing that all of Pocock's H. Hercules descriptive features being present on the same spider..

Hey all, I have finished prity much everything on the online drive. Including new files "Korean Hysterocrates" and "Whitey's herc compared to laticeps" this goes through in detail some common "hercules" look alikes and how to see the differences in them.

Please take a good look through those and familiarise with all the details. This will make the "Please Read" files easier to grasp.

I hope you will take the time to look through all of it and I will look forward to anything you may want to add or ask about the research.

Thanks,

Paul O'Sullivan

VERY INTERESTING !!

 

[angelarachnid]

Do you have the measurements for it?

got that it has a 37.5mm carapace, how wide?
Want these measurements also:
palp,
Leg 1
Leg 2
Leg 3
Leg 4

Overall body length including chelicerae

As i am not in the slightest interested in the taxonomy of this genus I did not do a full diagnosis ... but only wanted to dispel the absolute rubbish about H. hercules being the bigest African and through some mythical magial process they appeared in the pet hobby.

If you want me to supply you with a complete examination of both the male and the female of these specimens then please pay for my:

Accomidation,
Food and drink (by far the largest exspense)
Train fare on Eurostar,
Compensation for booking my holiday time from work,

Wasting my time over this rubbish that specimens illustatrated here are H. hercules even though better people than me on this subject have identified then as both H. gigas and H. laticeps.

While in Paris

Should be about £1500 to cover it

Best regards

R

 

[Paul Osullivan]

As i am not in the slightest interested in the taxonomy of this genus I did not do a full diagnosis ... but only wanted to dispel the absolute rubbish about H. hercules being the bigest African and through some mythical magial process they appeared in the pet hobby.

If you want me to supply you with a complete examination of both the male and the female of these specimens then please pay for my:

Accomidation,
Food and drink (by far the largest exspense)
Train fare on Eurostar,
Compensation for booking my holiday time from work,

Wasting my time over this rubbish that specimens illustatrated here are H. hercules even though better people than me on this subject have identified then as both H. gigas and H. laticeps.

While in Paris

Should be about £1500 to cover it

Best regards

R

(It's Ray Gabriel?). Sorry, I didn't mean for my thread and research to cause this contention. All I wanted to do is my own research and analysis and comparisons to other species and put together some known facts.. We did see some specimens arriving in the hobby around 10 years ago that looked different to the ones already seen in the hobby. It was known they were collected "Somewhere close to Jebba" and they were also analyzed and were deemed DIFFERENT to what you say here.. gigas and laticeps.

All I'm proposing is that this species could be found in a huge region (Alike to H. celeriae) and they could be the same species as hercules, possibly collected on the very outskirts of the forrest in central Nigeria along with some plant specimens it would seem. I have been lucky to have spotted them as being a different species and isolated the male and female to successfully breed. I think it's one thing to say it's a different species and another to say it's H. hercules.

I have asked for Richard Gallons help now (finally!!), after handing over some male and female specimens at the B.t.s. show this year and he said he will get round to analyzing them at some point. It would be good to get your insight too, but I will need to save to pay for any of your expenses. Unless you are able to analyze the specimens that Richard has and I can mention your help in the finished book along with anything you want to add to support or negate what I have discovered?

I hope thats all ok, I'm just doing what I have somewhat enjoyed doing (without the mega b*llaches). To show some evidence and comparisons that I have learnt from Andrew's book and his analysis in trying to identify a spider species, along with some previously known facts and new knowledge of Hysterocrates celieriae and it's huge range, to support them as possibly being this species or at least something different to gigas, laticeps and crassipes.

Also, it would be good to draw out this Giant Phonyusa and compare to the Hercules drawing, but would need those measurements and would be good to see if my ones get as big! cheers..

 

[xenesthis]

Just to re-visit the conversation about the Hysterocrates sp. "Niger Delta". It was concluded that hobbyists believe this is a variant of H. gigas. Here are two pics with a good one showing a 5" adult female 7-days post-molt. Note the greenish-black carapace. One thing that I can say about this species is that unlike typical H. gigas imported the last 25 yrs., this species don't get the "rusty red" coloration pre-molt. They stay black-brown with a lighter shade before the molt and are darker after the molt with the greenish-black carapace. Opinions about this species are welcomed. I wonder is this is NOT H. gigas and definitely not H. crassipes or H. laticeps, but another Hysterocrates in the genus.

I just got my 2nd sac produced from this species with a captive-breeding this past winter. Fun times cupping up about 150+ slings next week. Another female produced a sac last year around 160 slings.



What does Hysterocrates celerierae look like?
It's range is in the Ivory Coast and Burkina Faso according to:
Bariev T.B.1, Sherwood D.2* 2024. First records of Hysterocrates celerierae (Smith, 1990) from Burkina Faso (Aranei: Theraphosidae) // Invertebrate Zoology. Vol.21. No.1: 94–96

The H. sp. "Niger Delta" are supposed to have been collected from the coastal region (inland rainforest) of Nigeria and possibly the tip of SW Cameroon coastal region of inland rainforest.