Hysterocrates hercules Research

[Paul Osullivan]

Hi Ooya. I really appreciate you going to these lengths to show more of your spiders. It is very interesting discussing these spiders. I did initially think your spiders were h. laticeps, but sometimes pictures can show things that made believe you had a Hercules female, but now I'm not so sure.

I have looked closely at your male and I'm sure you can see the differences between my hercules and your spider. Hercules having silmmer shorter back legs, longer thicker front legs, slender femurs and a deeper black color. It's likely your 3 males were all from the same eggsack and all matured at different times and sizes. They all seem to have the longer back legs, with bigger femurs and lighter color.







The bulbs do look to be the same shape and size to each other and look alike to the sketch in A. Smith's book of H. laticeps in my opinion. Your right hercules were never collected or described. We can see the bulb is slender and longer in this species compared to H. laticeps.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

I did also think the female 'hercules' next to the laticeps appeared only slightly bigger than the laticeps and is prehaps a molt ahead of the other one or just a bigger spider but both 6cm. It's also likely it would be a H. laticeps as she has also produced viable eggs from what looks to be a H. laticeps male.
The hercules below, next to similarly sized H. laticeps looks much bigger.. you can really see how short and slim the back legs are in hercules and how long and wide the carapace is.. You can really see this is a massive bodied goliath sized spider even when compared to the giant H laticeps!!


I hope you have enjoyed these comparison pictures. I would be very surprised if your spiders were H. hercules unfortunately, but nature and surprises go hand in hand and I could be wrong, but I think the comparisons show many differences it would seem.

I know you have such great passion for these spiders and the keeness to investigate. They really are a rare species and very very difficult to find, identify and breed to the correct male. I was lucky in that two different spiderling and juvenile spiders were found (from what I think was the same female) in a bush root giving two sizes of spider, which meant I could time a breeding of them and I know they were the same species from my analysis (seen previously) so a pure lineage was born and I'm trying to now establish them in the hobby although proving something like this is no easy task, but my reasearch once studied and understood along with the clear evidence should prove this is a genuine living species.

I would be more than happy to post you some of my hercules spiders in the warmer months so please message me your address if you would like me to do this

It's no easy task trying to figure out which species are which.. however after 5 years of studying 4 Hysterocrates species, you get a good 'feel' for each species and you can learn to identify them. I have learnt side-by-side comparisons reaveal differences between each species. However, hercules and laticeps are very similar in appearance, but as you can see once they get to a bigger they are easier to distinguish.. but examination of an exuvia is really the best way to go about it..

thanks again my good friend Ooya and may god /mother nature remind us of its authority, so we all slow and bow humbly in these horrible and uncertain times..

Paul..

 

[ooya]

Hi Paul
My male H. hercules and male H. laticeps have different sources.
H. laticeps is CB and H. hercules male is WC who came on the same flight with H. hercules female.
Compared to me, in the photo you can see that the length of the body does not change, but the area of the head and the length of each leg are overwhelmingly different.
This is beyond the scope of individual differences due to growth.
Obviously it's a different species.
By the way, the male of H. laticeps in my photo is 16 cm, which is quite huge for H. laticeps.
If the photo comparing my H. hercules and H. laticeps is certainly a photo, H. hercules looks a little small, but in reality it just looks like that in perspective due to the amount of soil and puts it next to you like your photo I think there is a difference as much as.
There is a larger H. hercules female in my house, which may be easier to understand than that individual.

You can see that it is bred, but H. laticeps is about 6 cm in length at the maximum, which is similar to H. hercules, but you can see that it is far from the size.

I'm glad I was able to discuss a lot of content with you.
I'm looking forward to the day when I can show you my bigger H. hercules.

H. hercules

H. laticeps

H. hercules Body size7cm

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Hi again Ooya, I shall definitely look forward to this big Hercules you want to show me . I do understand the soil height was different and made Hercules look not as big, prehaps you can put on the same surface like I have? Spiders with the 6cm> B.L would show much difference, Hercules nearly twice as long and wide in the body over laticeps

As much as we think Hercules male would be bigger than laticeps.. I would like to say Hercules males that I have are small, so the size isn't important as much! Its likely a 17cm Hercules male will have a very big carapace! I can still see the Leg 4 in your Hercules and laticeps looks the same in proportion to the 1st in both your spiders and leg 4 longer than in my Hercules. This is a big difference to distinguish the species as Hercules have very short leg 4 even on mature male and it's very important to see as Hercules is only species with a shorter leg 4 in comparison to other legs. You can also see how short and silm they are, with the front legs looking the same size, but thicker. Both your spiders look to have less of a difference of build in the front and back legs. But 'hercules' I believe is called this for its stronger front legs and slimmer shorter back legs. Prehaps put your spiders in the same position as mine and take some pictures and you can see if it's alike? I would also add, your bigger male with different head and leg proportions, could be it's a different hysterocrates species, locality or just a bigger size grown in the wild.

I have taken some pictures of both my mature males. I have also measured the body length and the length of leg 4 to show you how short the back legs are. Are you able to do the same for both your spiders and draw them after and we can compare? The ratios should be ok and we can compare the body length to leg length accurately and to see if your hercules is the same species as mine, but the leg lengths do look a different proportion to mine but it will be good to check..

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Hey Ooya, I have posted these. I think as your sppiders are now dead, (unless you have an exuvia) or you could cut leg one close to the carapace. Inside leg 1's surface will likely be one of these arrangements of setae, you can also do this of the females you have. Unfortunately Hercules male isn't recorded, but it will have similarities to the female. You should use a microscope and the try to take a picture to look at and send to me if possible or you can interpret this yourself, but it's tricky. This will be the only way to get a 100% answer in all honesty

 

[ooya]

Hello Paul

When I looked back at my male specimen of H. hercules, the length was 52 mm and the length of Leg IV was 80 mm.
I guess my male was even bigger than yours.


Later, as you say, when H. hercules and H. laticeps are taken side by side, H. hercules is overwhelmingly larger.

 

[Edan bandoot]

Hi Ooya. I really appreciate you going to these lengths to show more of your spiders. It is very interesting discussing these spiders. I did initially think your spiders were h. laticeps, but sometimes pictures can show things that made believe you had a Hercules female, but now I'm not so sure.

I have looked closely at your male and I'm sure you can see the differences between my hercules and your spider. Hercules having silmmer shorter back legs, longer thicker front legs, slender femurs and a deeper black color. It's likely your 3 males were all from the same eggsack and all matured at different times and sizes. They all seem to have the longer back legs, with bigger femurs and lighter color.
View attachment 411590
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The bulbs do look to be the same shape and size to each other and look alike to the sketch in A. Smith's book of H. laticeps in my opinion. Your right hercules were never collected or described. We can see the bulb is slender and longer in this species compared to H. laticeps. View attachment 411598
View attachment 411604

You might want to invest in a set of callipers for comparisons like these instead of just going by eye.

And you might need a larger sample size to account for intraspecies size variation

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Hi Ooya.. wow that's an awsome picture you managed to get of them both. The hercules is does look much bigger for sure on the left!

I'm still quite unsure of your male though, those measurements would be a similar ratio to mine, but looking at it, it does look very alike to the smaller laticeps male you have. To me the leg 4 looks too long and the palpal bulb didn't look as long as my males did and did look the same to the laticeps. Would there be a cance you could send me the male if possible to see for sure?

One of my hercules spiders has molted out. Her skin was around 5.5 inches, but you can see how big her fangs were at close to 1/2 inch almost already so I guess they will be absolutely huge when she gets bigger. She still isn't a big size, now maybe 6 inches or just over, but is a very strong spider. She has such a huge body now and huge chelicerae and must have even bigger fangs than before. She is a very interesting spider to have and study.

The strong foveal groove and very curved palp femurs are seen here.. a good indicator of this species. t

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Thanks Edan, yea I do need some calipers I agree! I tend to struggle on lol. It is very difficult to see from pictures the differences, but I'm prity sure Ooyas mature males both look to be the same species. And I'm not sure how it's produced young from a hercules although I'm not sure if it would be this to be honest. So it could be a larger laticeps. Hysterocrates seem to grow slower in leg span and greater in the body/ bulk of the spider. Unfortunately I may have to wait a few more years to see another mature male and be lucky to get a larger one. I think the best way would be to examine the spider though

 

[Paul Osullivan]

I just thought to close this thread with some final bits of my research for you to ponder over and hopefully attract new interest/ ease doubt of those that are dubious of what I have discovered.

I am at a point where I am nearly ready to print my research <edit>. I have invested over 6 years and many long hours studying, learning some aspects taxonomy, researching, contacting experts and compiling as much evedence as I could gather to convince anyone who reads my research in its entirety, of how this really is the hercules species or at the very least 'C.F. hercules', using both modern and pre swelling (accurate) measurements, comparisons, analysis and visual references made by A. Smith and R. Pockock.. with every confidence in both of their literature..

I have never done anything like this and it seemed to have fallen upon me to learn how to examine, measure, compare and piece together every detail related to this spider. I had nearly given up on several occasions.
But my determined character of knowing something to be true and not stopping until I feel my duties are completed.. no matter how hard the task was, as to disprove this legendary myth of Hysterocrates hercules and a supremely tough crowd to convince..

After investing so much time and energy into the research, I felt also some time was needed to make it appealing to the average hobbiest.. with a nice gloss cover and lot's of pictures and alternate information and my experience of keeping and breeding spiders on and off over the years, on top of the many pages of research evedence and to make sure this research will at the very least be acknowledged by those with a scientific background and debated upon.

I hope you enjoy these last bits before the print within a few years. I will update when my reasearch book will be ready <edit>. Cheers.. Paul..

 

[Paul Osullivan]

 

[ooya]

Long time no see.

Your article is very impressive.
I now have the correct H. laticeps and after comparing it again with my own H. hercules, I found that it is still close to or the same species as your H. hercules.
I will post the characteristics of the shells here when they molt in the future.

I wish you the best of luck in your research.

Dear friends who share the same hobby in faraway lands
:Ooya

And I hope to send you a specimen of my H. hercules in the not-too-distant future.
I am currently preparing the international mail and waiting for the female to molt.
Both the female and the male are quite large, so I would be honored if I could be of any help.

I know I am from a far away country, but I wish you more success in this research than anyone else!

 

[angelarachnid]

You are aware that NONE of the availiable pet trade Hysterocrates species have EVER been compared with the holotypes prior to selling?

Therefore NO ONE really knows (well a couple of people who have not published yet do) what the pet trade species actually are.

And yes I have seen the holotypes.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Hey Ooya, thanks for your message. I appreciate your interest and thanks for wishing me luck with everything.. you are very kind..

I do look forward to seeing what your spiders are.. prehaps instead of sending a spider shell to me.. you could do like I have done here with legs 1 and 4 on the female and see if leg 4 is only a little longer than the first.. laticeps would have much longer leg 4, but it would also be good if you can send the spiders to see closely..

Thanks again my friend,

You are aware that NONE of the availiable pet trade Hysterocrates species have EVER been compared with the holotypes prior to selling?

Therefore NO ONE really knows (well a couple of people who have not published yet do) what the pet trade species actually are.

And yes I have seen the holotypes.

Hi Angela, yea I have spoken to a couple of arachnologists and importers and it seems the spiders are usually gathered from similar places each time and/or labelled by their place of being caught. Although I hear this isn't always accurate.

I do think there seems to be a general term for any spider with a thicker leg 4 to be called "gigas/crassipes" or thin leg 4 "laticeps" and the w/c 'pet-trade' hysterocrates seem to be one of these. Here's some bits I have done about the 'three common Hysterocrates in the hobby' with some features to look for.. I would also be interested to see the future publications..

That's cool you have seen the holoytypes, would there be any way you can help me forward my research.. as a couple of small observations I would like to draw from the spiders themselves and not the descriptions. I would be very appreciative to get the chance to view the holotypes if this is possible?

Oh these 'hercules' aren't 'pet-trade' Hysterocrates as such, as they were found in an import in the base of large plants/ shrubs which were from all I know as being 'West Africa'. Destined for the West African scape in the rainforest biome at the Eden project.. luckily I had previous interest in spiders and managed to save a few, as the plants were quarantined and likely destroyed!

 

[angelarachnid]

"Hi Angela, yea I have spoken to a couple of arachnologists and importers and it seems the spiders are usually gathered from similar places each time and/or labelled by their place of being caught. Although I hear this isn't always accurate."

I have helped unpack numerous shipments and the only information you get is the country of origin the exporters do not give locations away in case you get someone else to go and collect for you. But after they have emptied one location they will move onto the next and the next…

"I do think there seems to be a general term for any spider with a thicker leg 4 to be called "gigas/crassipes" or thin leg 4 "laticeps" and the w/c 'pet-trade' hysterocrates seem to be one of these. Here's some bits I have done about the 'three common Hysterocrates in the hobby' with some features to look for.. I would also be interested to see the future publications.."

Many of these are no longer viable primary taxonomical features as they have been found to be variable within specimens, others are not used as features as they are variable. Also comparing “named” specimens from shipments of unidentified spiders never compared against holotype material against Andys named drawings and drawing comparisons does not really work…you do know that Andy never measured every hair and drew them the correct length and exact position (A. Smith pers. com)

I really don’t understand why people think that hercules is a big spider? Hercules was known for his STRENGTH not his SIZE if you have big Hysterocrates then they are most likely H. gigas (gigas meaning giant). There are much bigger theraphosid spiders in Africa hercules is NOT the largest have a look at some of the Phonyusa sp… I have seen some much larger than any Hysterocrates sp

And not only that after some years many species get really big, I have also seen T. albopilosum about the same size as L. parahaybana in the wild and captivity does not mean to say that offspring from a really big female will always get that big or are a special strain all it means is that the young came from an older (bigger) female

Here are a couple of earlier articles

Gabriel, R. 2007. Captive breeding, social activity, and species status of pet trade Hysterocrates. Journal of the British Tarantula Society, 22 (3): 95–97.

Gabriel, R. 2015. Further Notes and Comments on the genus Hysterocrates (Araneae: Theraphosidae). Journal of the British Tarantula Society, 30(1): 6-8.


"That's cool you have seen the holoytypes, would there be any way you can help me forward my research.. as a couple of small observations I would like to draw from the spiders themselves and not the descriptions. I would be very appreciative to get the chance to view the holotypes if this is possible?"

I am friends with Richard Gallon therefore cannot/will not divulge anything till he has published. Firstly, you would need to be linked to a research or scientific establishment then I think the NHM would need a request from your supervisor indicating that access to the specimens is directly linked to the research project you are doing for that establishment. You would also need to show that you have experience with handling holotype and other type material so letters from curators of other museums etc. Then there is the security, CRB checks etc.

You could try sending some specimens to NHM and ask for identification…may take some time depending on how busy Jan is but she is also waiting for the latest generic revision as previous works cannot be reliably used especially Pococks…


"Oh these 'hercules' aren't 'pet-trade' Hysterocrates as such, as they were found in an import in the base of large plants/ shrubs which were from all I know as being 'West Africa'. Destined for the West African scape in the rainforest biome at the Eden project.. luckily I had previous interest in spiders and managed to save a few, as the plants were quarantined and likely destroyed!"

I have been in this hobby for nearly 50 years. Did you hear one about the spider keeper who walked into a pet shop, saw some unidentified Pamphobeteus sp knew they were the Chicken spider and then tried to convince people in the hobby mainly from the Tarantula Store website (no longer active) he was the only person with the chicken spider? Again, with no specimens ever being compared to the type.

Interestingly from what I am told, anything found at the Eden Project is destined for NHM London due to the close ties there and so far, no theraphosids have ever been found and sent to London. I spoke with one person at Eden Project who told me they could not remember but would try to find out which “West African” countries plants came from, but Nigeria was highly unlikely due to the conflict and problems traveling/working in the country (if you are a westerner working in Nigeria it is normally in a fenced compound with armed guards, there is no nipping down the shops and definitely no tourism and armed escorts from the airport to the work compound and back… my brother worked there for some time).

Is this also you?

Goliath Grand Baboon Spider - Hysterocrates sp...

A video on the project has materialised: Hysterocrates sp “Goliath” Project Info Video This is a selectively bred species, in the Tarantula keeping hobby, the spider you are buying are from an Adult female of 9” in size, the largest old world species ever seen, rivalling the new world giants...

www.reptileforums.co.uk

 

[Paul Osullivan]

"I have helped unpack numerous shipments and the only information you get is the country of origin the exporters do not give locations away in case you get someone else to go and collect for you. But after they have emptied one location they will move onto the next and the next…"

Ah ok, I see. I did see Hysterocrates sp. "Bakassi" which is a more specific location than just the Country, but I guess still a vast area in Cameroon. It looked like sp. Gigas on a visual level.

"Many of these are no longer viable primary taxonomical features as they have been found to be variable within specimens, others are not used as features as they are variable. Also comparing “named” specimens from shipments of unidentified spiders never compared against holotype material against Andys named drawings and drawing comparisons does not really work…you do know that Andy never measured every hair and drew them the correct length and exact position (A. Smith pers. com)"

I do try to learn and understand about the 'stable' and 'unstable' taxonomic markers and I can only imagine about the differences found within the same species and whether this would categorize it a new, sub species or variation. I would say I haven't studied enough of them to see the differences, but I have learnt/ been told color can vary greatly within a population of the same species as well as size.. like with the T. albipolosus you saw.

Niklas Reinhardt - after studying numerous Hysterocrates specimens, both wild caught and hobby species. Has commented on the differences seen in the spermathicae at different life stages of H. crassipes and he mentions of only little variation. If you study the spermathicae of laticeps and hercules in my previous post, some key markers are seen relevant to each species.. also, he mentions most variation in his experience is mostly found in the male bulb and not so much in the females spermathecae or in the coxa and trochanter of leg 1.. being more less variable.






I will have to defend the importance of some of what Pocock has analysed and wrote down. Particularly in the case of H. hercules. It seems through the visual (photograpic evedence) of the hercules holotype and the now increased measurements in its back legs - measured by Andrew (where as legs 1 and 2 are measured the same by Andrew and Pocock) and appear unswollen. Suggests some swelling and lengthening had occurred in legs 3 and 4 and so Pocock's measurements should be used, as well his visual descriptions of the various body parts.

I have measured on my spiders exact ratio's of the femurs and tibias of the 4th leg to within less than a millimeter in both cases (see previous pictures) as well as all other of Pocock's comparisons and observations seem to match up precisely to what he took from the holotype. Also the unique and important lateral description of Leg 4 ticks every box, as this looks to be lost on the holotype.

I think this more 'standard'/ visual taxonomic evaluation taken from Pocock and Andrew's examination/ interpretation of the holotype with it's more 'microscopic'/ 'detailed' taxonomic evedence in providing more 'stable' / 'identifying' markers in combination. Could prove a species match. All the characteristics look to be matching at a minimum of extremely closely in every case - given the nature of the task. Or the spider being most comparable to H. hercules / C.f at the very least.

I did wonder about the hairs on the legs and their arrangement, length and form and just to add this to the body of evedence I had before. This was a tricky comparison to make and I did wonder if Andrews drawings could be of any use. I gave it my best shot anyway. I have heard a few say about Andrew's drawings of being of limited to no use. But I still wonder at the detail and the time he took to analyse and draw every spider species and their markers and so surely some of the descriptions must be of some use? Andrew did say when I started my project "My drawings in the Baboon spiders book are very accurate" (A. Smith pers. com) and I can agree that there looks to be a lot of likeness in many of the comparisons that myself and Niklas Reinhardt have made.



"I really don’t understand why people think that hercules is a big spider? Hercules was known for his STRENGTH not his SIZE if you have big Hysterocrates then they are most likely H. gigas (gigas meaning giant). There are much bigger theraphosid spiders in Africa hercules is NOT the largest have a look at some of the Phonyusa sp… I have seen some much larger than any Hysterocrates sp"

That's interesting you should say that. I did also wonder if it was named because of the general larger size of the carapace/ legspan, but I agree.. in that the spider does look to have very big powerful front legs over its back legs and the holotype is only around 7. 3/4"s.

I would argue true H. hercules - being a totally different animal compared to the other Hysterocrates cousins, would definitely give a Phoneyusa species a run for it's money. Although I have only seen smaller Phoneyusa pictures and they may get larger for sure yes. I am confident I have this same giant hercules species that Whitey had and the scale drawings show differences as does Whiteys comparison. This is how I know it's not possible to be a H. gigas. (His was also found very close to the delta).

"And not only that after some years many species get really big, I have also seen T. albopilosum about the same size as L. parahaybana in the wild and captivity does not mean to say that offspring from a really big female will always get that big or are a special strain all it means is that the young came from an older (bigger) female"

Awsome, that's very cool. I would imagine it being very fuzzy lol. It's so interesting to hear of these instances in the wild. I guess this would be some evedence to go against what Whitey is doing here. Although he also has some interesting theories about breeding the biggest male and female each time to get a bigger spider, but it could take years who knows. So would an older, bigger female lay larger fewer eggs or theres no difference than that of a smaller female?

Goliath Grand Baboon Spider - Hysterocrates sp...

A video on the project has materialised: Hysterocrates sp “Goliath” Project Info Video This is a selectively bred species, in the Tarantula keeping hobby, the spider you are buying are from an Adult female of 9” in size, the largest old world species ever seen, rivalling the new world giants...

www.reptileforums.co.uk

^Not me, this is Whitey exotics.^

"I am friends with Richard Gallon therefore cannot/will not divulge anything till he has published. Firstly, you would need to be linked to a research or scientific establishment then I think the NHM would need a request from your supervisor indicating that access to the specimens is directly linked to the research project you are doing for that establishment. You would also need to show that you have experience with handling holotype and other type material so letters from curators of other museums etc. Then there is the security, CRB checks etc.

You could try sending some specimens to NHM and ask for identification…may take some time depending on how busy Jan is but she is also waiting for the latest generic revision as previous works cannot be reliably used especially Pococks…"

Ok, that's understandable. I am not an academic or educated past degree level. I wouldn't be confident in handling a specimen. I was initially going to send a spider for analysis, but I wanted to do my own research and use this to help in identifying the spider or providing more evedence to support / create a debate about what it could be. I have previously contacted Jan and she has been most helpful, I will ask again for her help. I would only need a few further details/ photos and I wouldn't need to visit the museum. I look forward to R. Gallons publication and thanks for the advice

"I have been in this hobby for nearly 50 years. Did you hear one about the spider keeper who walked into a pet shop, saw some unidentified Pamphobeteus sp knew they were the Chicken spider and then tried to convince people in the hobby mainly from the Tarantula Store website (no longer active) he was the only person with the chicken spider? Again, with no specimens ever being compared to the type."

Oh, crikey, I haven't heard of this one. I guess greed can get the better of anyone/ maybe it was a last effort to make some money before shutting shop. The criticism would be too great. But I guess we have to forgive a man for trying. I guess though, at least from what you can see I have done. I have made some effort to compare to the type/ via Andrew's drawings & Pocock's work. There will be 100+ pages in my research book.

"Interestingly from what I am told, anything found at the Eden Project is destined for NHM London due to the close ties there and so far, no theraphosids have ever been found and sent to London. I spoke with one person at Eden Project who told me they could not remember but would try to find out which “West African” countries plants came from, but Nigeria was highly unlikely due to the conflict and problems traveling/working in the country (if you are a westerner working in Nigeria it is normally in a fenced compound with armed guards, there is no nipping down the shops and definitely no tourism and armed escorts from the airport to the work compound and back… my brother worked there for some time)."

That's interesting to know. I was offered "a safe journey to the delta / Jebba" by a befriended Nigerian police constable/ currently a care worker. He is very interested in my research and I explained to him the ultimate goal would be to see the spider in the wild. But I'm still not sure if I would risk my life for this and hope my research would suffice. Is there a chance the plants were carried through the northern or western part of Africa?

Logically, I don't think any of the plants would have made it to the project/ N.h.m due to the obvious risk of infestation and they probably would have colonised the whole of the biome - being so warm. I do think the export manager would have suspended the shipment and I did hear they would be incinerated. Luckily I did manage to quickly empty my flask and lunchbox to transport some of the spiderlings home without being noticed!

 

[angelarachnid]

"Sorry for late reply, busy examining types"

Ah ok, I see. I did see Hysterocrates sp. "Bakassi" which is a more specific location than just the Country, but I guess still a vast area in Cameroon. It looked like sp. Gigas on a visual level.

"Next wild caught Cameroon shipment comes in I will sell you however many you want at a higher price from any location you ask for…doesn’t mean they came from there…just helps to sell more with people thinking they have something different (though sometimes true)"

I do try to learn and understand about the 'stable' and 'unstable' taxonomic markers and I can only imagine about the differences found within the same species and whether this would categorize it a new, sub species or variation. I would say I haven't studied enough of them to see the differences, but I have learnt/ been told color can vary greatly within a population of the same species as well as size.. like with the T. albipolosus you saw.

Niklas Reinhardt - after studying numerous Hysterocrates specimens, both wild caught and hobby species. Has commented on the differences seen in the spermathicae at different life stages of H. crassipes and he mentions of only little variation. If you study the spermathicae of laticeps and hercules in my previous post, some key markers are seen relevant to each species.. also, he mentions most variation in his experience is mostly found in the male bulb and not so much in the females spermathecae or in the coxa and trochanter of leg 1.. being more less variable.

"STILL so far no one has compared against the types only pet trade material from unknown and made up locations"

I will have to defend the importance of some of what Pocock has analysed and wrote down.

"Same paper Pocock names 3 species from 3 genera with only a single sex for each, collected by the same person on the same river …..so not that accurate"

Particularly in the case of H. hercules. It seems through the visual (photograpic evedence) of the hercules holotype and the now increased measurements in its back legs - measured by Andrew (where as legs 1 and 2 are measured the same by Andrew and Pocock) and appear unswollen. Suggests some swelling and lengthening had occurred in legs 3 and 4 and so Pocock's measurements should be used, as well his visual descriptions of the various body parts.

I have measured on my spiders exact ratio's of the femurs and tibias of the 4th leg to within less than a millimeter in both cases (see previous pictures) as well as all other of Pocock's comparisons and observations seem to match up precisely to what he took from the holotype. Also the unique and important lateral description of Leg 4 ticks every box, as this looks to be lost on the holotype.

I think this more 'standard'/ visual taxonomic evaluation taken from Pocock and Andrew's examination/ interpretation of the holotype with it's more 'microscopic'/ 'detailed' taxonomic evedence in providing more 'stable' / 'identifying' markers in combination. Could prove a species match. All the characteristics look to be matching at a minimum of extremely closely in every case - given the nature of the task. Or the spider being most comparable to H. hercules / C.f at the very least.

I did wonder about the hairs on the legs and their arrangement, length and form and just to add this to the body of evedence I had before. This was a tricky comparison to make and I did wonder if Andrews drawings could be of any use. I gave it my best shot anyway. I have heard a few say about Andrew's drawings of being of limited to no use. But I still wonder at the detail and the time he took to analyse and draw every spider species and their markers and so surely some of the descriptions must be of some use? Andrew did say when I started my project "My drawings in the Baboon spiders book are very accurate" (A. Smith pers. com) and I can agree that there looks to be a lot of likeness in many of the comparisons that myself and Niklas Reinhardt have made.

!Irrelevant as only the types have the measurements in Pocock and Smith. A specimen with the same measurements as the description will be larger after a moult so will not fit the type description anymore same as a smaller specimen will not fit the description…still the same species, not all specimens are the same size as the type"

"I really don’t understand why people think that hercules is a big spider? Hercules was known for his STRENGTH not his SIZE if you have big Hysterocrates then they are most likely H. gigas (gigas meaning giant). There are much bigger theraphosid spiders in Africa hercules is NOT the largest have a look at some of the Phonyusa sp… I have seen some much larger than any Hysterocrates sp"

That's interesting you should say that. I did also wonder if it was named because of the general larger size of the carapace/ legspan, but I agree.. in that the spider does look to have very big powerful front legs over its back legs and the holotype is only around 7. 3/4"s.

I would argue true H. hercules - being a totally different animal compared to the other Hysterocrates cousins, would definitely give a Phoneyusa species a run for it's money.

"Tell me how old is the hercules specimen? You cannot tell ….it could be a very large specimen of a small to medium Hysterocrates but you have bought into/believe that hercules is huge … now the holotype of Phonyusa chevalier is a big spider bigger than hercules and just watch this space within months someone will have specimens of this collected by their 3rd cousins, uncles, best friends, grandmothers, sisters pet gerbil or some similar fantasy rubbish from the type location though never having been identified against the type. (déjà vu)"

Although I have only seen smaller Phoneyusa pictures and they may get larger for sure yes. I am confident I have this same giant hercules species that Whitey had and the scale drawings show differences as does Whiteys comparison. This is how I know it's not possible to be a H. gigas. (His was also found very close to the delta).

"STILL so far no one has compared against the types only pet trade material from unknown locations"

Awsome, that's very cool. I would imagine it being very fuzzy lol. It's so interesting to hear of these instances in the wild. I guess this would be some evedence to go against what Whitey is doing here. Although he also has some interesting theories about breeding the biggest male and female each time to get a bigger spider, but it could take years who knows.

"It is not genetic they still have to be over fed and some females prefer smaller males so wouldn’t mate a bigger male…this whole genetic giant rubbish has been around for quite a while and still nothing published, and peer reviewed to prove it is true."

So would an older, bigger female lay larger fewer eggs or theres no difference than that of a smaller female?

"Varies with each eggsac with each female (regalis)"

Ok, that's understandable. I am not an academic or educated past degree level. I wouldn't be confident in handling a specimen. I was initially going to send a spider for analysis, but I wanted to do my own research and use this to help in identifying the spider or providing more evedence to support / create a debate about what it could be.

"no not how it works you send stuff to be identified with your suggestion as to what it might be…you get an identification…there is no debate"

"I have been in this hobby for nearly 50 years. Did you hear one about the spider keeper who walked into a pet shop, saw some unidentified Pamphobeteus sp knew they were the Chicken spider and then tried to convince people in the hobby mainly from the Tarantula Store website (no longer active) he was the only person with the chicken spider? Again, with no specimens ever being compared to the type."

Oh, crikey, I haven't heard of this one. I guess greed can get the better of anyone/ maybe it was a last effort to make some money before shutting shop.

"It was a customer not the shopkeeper who “IDENTIFIED” the spiders"

The criticism would be too great. But I guess we have to forgive a man for trying.

"Forgive a man for trying to con people? I dont"

I guess though, at least from what you can see I have done. I have made some effort to compare to the type/ via Andrew's drawings & Pocock's work. There will be 100+ pages in my research book.

That's interesting to know. I was offered "a safe journey to the delta / Jebba" by a befriended Nigerian police constable/ currently a care worker.

"YEAAAA we had a Nigerian a few years back who had family in India and would get us all the Poecilotheria we wanted…………cash up front… no pictures of his own…and we could trust him as he was a prince."

"And the amount of taxi drivers worldwide who “know” where to find tarantulas is amazing…they can take you there at a cost (but they are then magically gone) but not tell you or show you on a map."

He is very interested in my research and I explained to him the ultimate goal would be to see the spider in the wild. But I'm still not sure if I would risk my life for this and hope my research would suffice. Is there a chance the plants were carried through the northern or western part of Africa?

Logically, I don't think any of the plants would have made it to the project/ N.h.m due to the obvious risk of infestation and they probably would have colonised the whole of the biome - being so warm. I do think the export manager would have suspended the shipment and I did hear they would be incinerated. Luckily I did manage to quickly empty my flask and lunchbox to transport some of the spiderlings home without being noticed!

"You would think a CONSERVATION group would obtain their plants from other horticultural places rather than go and obtain from the wild destroying microecosystems contra their conservation proclamation . Anyway, from what I understand no plants for the Eden project were wild harvested in Nigeria."

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Thanks for your reply Angela. I appreciate you taking time to respond. I do find the conversation very interesting and funny.. but let's get down to business.. like you mentioned it would be a good idea to send an exuvia to the museum. I had planned to do this once a bigger spider had shed so it would be more alike to the holotype in it's size. There is a lot to take in and understand in your responses and it helps me to understand the situation I am in at the moment and where to go forward from now..

When you say the "spiders aren't compared to types.." I know they aren't compared directly to the preserved "type specimen" spiders in the Jars of alchol at the museum(s). But I thought that Andrew's Baboon spiders book was a detailed interpretation and description of these "types" so that this could be used with the types identifying markers highlighted as the book shows, to save having to compare directly to the type specimens. Or is more detail needed to be saught from the specimens themselves when an identification is needed, like a D.n.a analysis? Or as you mentioned some of Andrews interpretations are just that, of sometimes one spider species and the drawings aren't quite as accurate as the specimen itself.

I would like to understand more in respect to this and to add it to my book to hopefully add some further evedence or possibly discover something that would refute my research or lead into a new topic of discussion. Surely though some of the professional detailed micro photography of the spiders I have had taken of their markers would be of some interest and use to the taxonomist identifying this spider?

I would like to show you these three pictures of three separate specimens of different sizes. It shows the trochanter of leg one and it took all three of these specimens to reveal every unique and distinct marker that Andrew has identified from the holotype - All 100% unique only to Hysterocrates hercules. Collectively these markers look to be all present, but two different microscopes and three specimens were needed to reveal all these identifying markers. However a taxonomist may only examine one specimen and conclude that all the markers aren't present and this is why I think my research could be of more value than it may appear..



Thanks for answering all my questions. Your knowledge and experience is of much interest to me and I was thinking prehaps the seller that tried to sell the chicken spider may have had some financial issues and was acting in desperation.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Hi, Sorry if I was short this time in my reply. I do think sometimes my way of conveying my ideas isn't always as clear as it could be. I do have a lot more to show, although I wanted to display this in the finished book so people will be more inclined to buy it, instead of showing it all on this thread. I do think when you put this:

"Irrelevant as only the types have the measurements in Pocock and Smith. A specimen with the same measurements as the description will be larger after a moult so will not fit the type description anymore same as a smaller specimen will not fit the description…still the same species, not all specimens are the same size as the type"

I think it was misunderstood as to what I was trying to explain.. as in the leg measurements of Pocock must be used and not Andrew's for the ratio's and to grasp the general body shape/ sillouhette of the spider. I'm sure you can see the ratio's of the femur and tibia of leg 4 in Pocock's work and how when these ratios (measured on my smaller spider - when scaled up by 1.25) completely match the ratio drawn from Pocock. I know it's not a conventional thing to do, but for me it's another small bit of evedence to add to the rest of my research. I suspect in a few years when I can measure a similar sized spider to the holoytype, the ratios will be very close again and possibly the other measurements of the legs, their segments and carapace will be close too and similar sizes/ ratios in respect to each other and when compared to the holotype. I did measure the exuvia of a smaller spider, rather than the spider itself, but I just thought it was interesting how the ratio's held, despite being smaller..

I do feel I am coming to an end to what I can do with regards to displaying evedence of the many distinguishing markers and small identifying details, that prehaps would be overlooked as Pocock mentions other details in the description of Hysterocrates scepticus. I have done what I thought was right.. reading and learning Andrews book and how to go about identifying a spider and to understand the importance/less important markers as well as the more visual descriptions of Pocock that are all present on these spiders. I realize how fast science can progress and the details and time put into describing new species on paper and with so much still to learn about the classification of species to their genus. I have learnt about the differences between Hysterocrates and Phoneyusa and how each one is assigned to the correct genus, which is all in my research book. I thought the mature males of Phoneyusa having a incrassate leg 3 femur and extended palp beyond the tibia of leg 1 and the females unlobbed spermathicae were interesting and known ways to assign a spider to it's genus.

As you can see I have given 'basic taxonomy' my best shot and I will really look forward to an 'official identification' in the near future. I have to say though, from my own research, I am very confident in the identification of this species from all of the comparisons to Andrew's and Pococks works and a previous known collection location ( whitey exotics -being "somewhere close" to where the original spider was collected). I just thought that if it wasn't felt it was a match, my research - showing so many similarities to the description and disproving any coincidences and so would all be considered. Or some evedence on the part of the taxonomist to disprove what I have found would be appreciated.

I think in this case a good pair of eyes, a detective minded approach and embodying all known facts and information of a previous known collection location was needed to show this is as close to the species as it can get.

I was told "not to keep this spider from science" and I have done what I thought needed to be done.. I have spent easily over a thousand pounds on food, substrate, containers, tools, warmth and the time and dedication to raising these spiders and separating the males from females at the N1/ N2 stage. I believe in them so much.. I have converted 2 rooms of my home into space to raise the many female slings/ juveniles and they are growing extremely fast and big and as you can see these really are a big spider - possibly the true African goliath..

I think it would be good to get some help in the dispersion of these spiders, as I feel I am the hobby dad of this species, but sadly there's only little interest / much doubt in this spider, but being anything but your average hobby Hysterocrates. I do have them successfully bred, sexed and primed ready to be introduced into the hobby and hopefully be sustained and made available globally as with every other species.

I get the sense everyone is too busy for this or is unbelieving/ untrusting of me and my discovery and my research. All that aside, this is what it is: The biggest known Hysterocrates found 'somewhere close' to where the original spider was found in 1899, but looks to be a close resemblance taxonomically and it being distinct from the other known Hysterocrates species. Despite our differences in education, experience and opinion. We share a unique passion for tarantulas and time, respect and appreciation for this spider should be given and my efforts to distinguish it and to educate future hobbyists to successfully distinguish, breed and sustain them in the hobby for many years to come should be the next goal. As well have this same responsibility shared by all those who want to see this happen and also the taxonomist who have a responsibility to officially lable this species or lable it as being distinct from other Hysterocrates.