US Dealer Involved in Smuggling revealed in court documents

[xenesthis]

but how much more evil is he than the dealers who "expose" him?

<edit - MrD>

Becker exposed himself. Not once. Repeatedly. When caught, he pointed fingers at all his competition to get the heat off himself and bury this bus. partner. Becker was the one doing the exposing. Bad karma came back and he got exposed now.

Again, again, again....read the court docs posted at the beginning of this thread. Becker exposed himself and tried to hurt all his competition. He then lied to the hobby. Yes, you the hobbyists. Then, the court docs came out and he went for the sob story. He is responsible for the exposing. Dealers have a right to be mad. He cheated in order to compete. He become the cheap dealer darling of the hobby by selling illegal, brown-boxed stock. Hobbyists have a right to be mad to. Getting compromised, potentially illegal species in their collections and putting as one said, a huge "skidmark" on our hobby. Becker exposed himself i.e Anthony Weiner style. How does Weiner look today? Anybody fill sorry for Weiner?

 

[baboonfan]

Also if you look at the prices of Ts in other countries you can see that it is much cheaper, an adult female A.versicolor can cost 40$ in europe, while its more like 100$ here. That is also why Paul listed everything cheaper

---------- Post added at 03:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:15 PM ----------




They have to charge more because they payed for legally importing the Ts, They were pointing fingers at him because he was ruining their businesses by having really low prices that you can only offer if you ship the Ts in illegally.

How much are they really importing? Many of the Ts they sell are the products of domestic bred adults. One would have no business sense at all to import a P cambridgei for example given the fact that they are common and cheap within the domestic market since at least the mid 90s.

I really think he pissed people off by charging a lower profit percentile than they do. There is no reasonable explanation for high end pricing a species that has been commonly bred for decades.

 

[Stoneleaf]

well worded, thats exactly what Paul did, I highly doubt any of the other bug dealers would do anything like this. Ken the bug guy is more expensive because he didnt break the law

Completely agree with this post as well as those by Jose and xenesthis.

<edit - MrD>

Take care,
-Happy customer of legitimate dealers.

 

[Carrot]

Honest question: Is shipping via USPS in an unmarked box considered "brown boxing"? Everything I've read points to it being a violation of the Lacey Act and technically illegal.

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=693929&postcount=15

I know that's not what Paul got in trouble for, but it seems a little silly to me to say it's okay to break one law when shipping tarantulas, but not another just because the penalty/chance of being caught isn't as high.

I'd imagine if there was a news story about someone being caught shipping mass quantities of spiders via USPS it would negatively effect the public's opinion of the hobby just as much as what Paul did.

Not that I think anyone who ships USPS is bad or unethical or anything, since personally I think it's silly you can ship bees and stuff via USPS and not spiders.

 

[Cuddly Cobalt]

Honest question: Is shipping via USPS in an unmarked box considered "brown boxing"? Everything I've read points to it being a violation of the Lacey Act and technically illegal.

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=693929&postcount=15

I know that's not what Paul got in trouble for, but it seems a little silly to me to say it's okay to break one law when shipping tarantulas, but not another just because the penalty/chance of being caught isn't as high.

I'd imagine if there was a news story about someone being caught shipping mass quantities of spiders via USPS it would negatively effect the public's opinion of the hobby just as much as what Paul did.

Not that I think anyone who ships USPS is bad or unethical or anything, since personally I think it's silly you can ship bees and stuff via USPS and not spiders.

correct me if i am wrong but i think paul was breaking federal law with the international brown boxing. domestic T shipping is not against federal law so its not that big of a deal, but it is still illegal

 

[Kirk]

How about you show me evidence pointing to massive import fees on domestic purchases? Explain why a 10.00 T common in the US market as captive bred specimens for 2 decades costs 45.00.

Greed is the only common sense explanation.

Thank you. You've confirmed that your knowledge of dealers' actions is on the same level as your understanding of the law.

 

[Kirk]

Anything posted here that is not supporting SOME PEOPLE beneficts is not a wanted topic by such people. Why would that be, I wonder.

Fran,

I've followed a number of threads in which your presence has been interjected to fulfill some ulterior agenda. The premise for this thread as initiated by Ken was to make available relevant court documents that contradict unsubstantiated claims and lies promulgated by Paul Becker in the Sven Koppler thread.

The reason Ken was able to make those documents available is because I downloaded all of the relevant court documents from PACER, read them, and then made some of them available for him to post. Beyond the attempts by so many to derail this thread by their lack of understanding of our legal system, the fact that they have personal axes to grind with other dealers, or other questionable mental faculties, it still stands that Paul was an unindicted co-conspirator involved in a pattern of illegal international importation of tarantulas. A pattern of activity that Paul earlier denied on AB to the point of contriving conspiracy theories among other dealers.

Now, note that I am not a dealer, I am not a breeder. I have some tarantulas as part of a hobby. I have no particular allegiances to any dealer(s). Those are the facts that readers need to cull from far too much inane arm waving within this thread.

 

[Chris_Skeleton]

baboonfan,

Where are you buying these 300,000 and 4 million dollar spiders? You keep putting extremely unrealistic prices to help sensationalize your argument. On top of that, when you do put a real price to a certain spider you don't mention the size.

 

[baboonfan]

baboonfan,

Where are you buying these 300,000 and 4 million dollar spiders? You keep putting extremely unrealistic prices to help sensationalize your argument. On top of that, when you do put a real price to a certain spider you don't mention the size.

The huge, unrealistic prices I mentioned were meant to make the point that too many dealers have unrealistic prices for common and well established specimens. The excuse we hear is "oh I had to pay an import fee for it" when the specimen is many times the product of long established domestic captive breeding.

Sizes? Take your pick depending on the dealer. The 90.00 overcharge I mentioned was a sub adult female. There is no way something that established (P cambridgei) should ever cost that much. I again grant that this sort of absurd greed isnt that common but they seem to average about 40.00 plus, which is still overpriced.

<edit - MrD>

 

[Kirk]

I'll point out again that Ken only posted the court documents because I made them available to him. One of the files is 8 mb and I have no server access to make a file of that size available on AB. Ken did the right thing by making the documents I downloaded available on AB. And as I noted earlier, I'm neither a dealer nor a breeder. So dealers' motives aren't the issue here.

 

[Krissy K]

I hope I get to order from him again. Name another dealer with his selection and fair prices. Ive been buying Ts mail since the 90s and I can honestly say that PetCenter USA is probably one of the best I have ever run across. Most times T keepers have to find one thing they want and order it with shipping fees, then find another dealer for another T and pay for shipping all over again.

As far as illegal importation goes I dont judge him. The entire exotic pets market wouldnt exist without illegal importations. We live in a world where most people think its ok to buy a gram of coke or a bag of weed while thinking of themselves as "nonviolent" and guilty of victimless crimes. Nevermind the obvious evidence of the destruction of whole communities and mass murder commited by those who deal in the "victimless" products. Sorry folks, what Paul did isnt a big deal. Prosecuting exotic pets dealers for this sort of thing is a waste of tax payer funds. Exotic pets dealers arent slaughtering families wholesale, turning American neighborhoods into warzones, and killing our youth.

Well now that you mention it... I can see your point perfectly. So long as it isn't against the law to order from him, I may continue to do so. But since i hardly order offline anyways, and he is the only one i HAVE ordered from (again, technically my sister. but i say "i ordered" because i made the selection for the T's I wanted.) He is the only person I have ordered offline from (my sister has gotten her own T's from others, but my only source of T's are Paul and the LPS) and I was happy with his service. I emailed and he replied rather quickly, he was very kind and considerate, and I like to believe that he was sincere with his words. And until there is proof of other such things, I will continue to believe this.

To all those who say this act makes him such a horrible person and puts a bad mark on the hobby... Does this act make him worse than Alex080 who scammed dozens if not hundreds of people out of their money? what about brandon becker who scammed RobC? would you rather him have scammed someone out of their money (and i guess in some ways he has done this) or have him at least attempt to add more genes to a hobby in which variable genes are hard to find? Even if this act was done for selfish reasons, he probably would have sold those T's, they would have grown and possibly been bred, thus still adding new genes.
I suppose breaking federal law is worse than scamming but... I'm pretty sure scamming someone is against the law too! And I'm sure most of us have at least dealt with a scammer or knows someone who has, regardless of if it's in the T hobby or not. I know I have been scammed, and it did not make me feel too proud for even falling for it. Regardless of if you admit it to us or not, at least admit to yourself how ashamed or embarrassed you felt, or that you even felt it at all. I'm sure a lot of you have been embarrassed or ashamed over something.
now imagine how paul must feel. I'm sure he's embarrassed for even doing this, he's ashamed, and probably very resentful. All of you who used to respect him, i'm sure we've ALL done something we wish we hadn't and that we regretted. I'm sure we've ALL angered someone or fought with someone and disappointed someone. I'm sure we've ALL made mistakes. Some big, some small. But the severity makes no difference. whoever you've disappointed or angered has forgiven you. If someone disappointed you, i'm sure you've forgiven them. no matter how big or small the reason was. You've forgiven them. It's not like he physically harmed someone. he made a mistake, he apologized. I'm sure it was sincere. He may not have needed to bring in excuses for why he did it, because excuse or no excuse, he committed a crime. and he admitted he was wrong. even if at first he denied it, at least he admitted it. he's paying the price for breaking the law. so don't hold a grudge. there is no reason to, unless he continues to do this. and i don't believe he will.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Well now that you mention it... I can see your point perfectly. So long as it isn't against the law to order from him, I may continue to do so. But since i hardly order offline anyways, and he is the only one i HAVE ordered from (again, technically my sister. but i say "i ordered" because i made the selection for the T's I wanted.) He is the only person I have ordered offline from (my sister has gotten her own T's from others, but my only source of T's are Paul and the LPS) and I was happy with his service. I emailed and he replied rather quickly, he was very kind and considerate, and I like to believe that he was sincere with his words. And until there is proof of other such things, I will continue to believe this.

To all those who say this act makes him such a horrible person and puts a bad mark on the hobby... Does this act make him worse than Alex080 who scammed dozens if not hundreds of people out of their money? what about brandon becker who scammed RobC? would you rather him have scammed someone out of their money (and i guess in some ways he has done this) or have him at least attempt to add more genes to a hobby in which variable genes are hard to find? Even if this act was done for selfish reasons, he probably would have sold those T's, they would have grown and possibly been bred, thus still adding new genes.
I suppose breaking federal law is worse than scamming but... I'm pretty sure scamming someone is against the law too! And I'm sure most of us have at least dealt with a scammer or knows someone who has, regardless of if it's in the T hobby or not. I know I have been scammed, and it did not make me feel too proud for even falling for it. Regardless of if you admit it to us or not, at least admit to yourself how ashamed or embarrassed you felt, or that you even felt it at all. I'm sure a lot of you have been embarrassed or ashamed over something.
now imagine how paul must feel. I'm sure he's embarrassed for even doing this, he's ashamed, and probably very resentful. All of you who used to respect him, i'm sure we've ALL done something we wish we hadn't and that we regretted. I'm sure we've ALL angered someone or fought with someone and disappointed someone. I'm sure we've ALL made mistakes. Some big, some small. But the severity makes no difference. whoever you've disappointed or angered has forgiven you. If someone disappointed you, i'm sure you've forgiven them. no matter how big or small the reason was. You've forgiven them. It's not like he physically harmed someone. he made a mistake, he apologized. I'm sure it was sincere. He may not have needed to bring in excuses for why he did it, because excuse or no excuse, he committed a crime. and he admitted he was wrong. even if at first he denied it, at least he admitted it. he's paying the price for breaking the law. so don't hold a grudge. there is no reason to, unless he continues to do this. and i don't believe he will.

He's ashamed, embarrased and recentful cause he got caught by the public eye of what he has done. Paul would have never apologize to you or me if Ken didn't post the court doc. So dont give me or the public another sob story about Paul.
If this court doc. was never release his lies would have stood on the Koppler case on Ab.


Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates

 

[xhexdx]

Hello, and welcome to another episode of "5 Minutes of Joe". Today's topic: My thoughts regarding this thread.

Brown-boxing

It's being argued lately that all/most dealers have been or are currently brown-boxing. It's been said before that without evidence, it's all heresay. I agree with this, but I'm also not willing to rule out the possibility that most, if not all, current and past dealers have engaged in some form of brown-boxing throughout their careers in this hobby. Dealers, don't bother quoting me and responding with, "I haven't brown-boxed ever", because Paul just did that last week and look what happened. I'm NOT saying every dealer is brown-boxing and not to buy from them - just suggesting that most of them are calling the kettle black by posting in this thread.

Purpose of this thread

Kirk brought up a good point regarding this thread's purpose:

The reason Ken was able to make those documents available is because I downloaded all of the relevant court documents from PACER, read them, and then made some of them available for him to post. Beyond the attempts by so many to derail this thread by their lack of understanding of our legal system, the fact that they have personal axes to grind with other dealers, or other questionable mental faculties, it still stands that Paul was an unindicted co-conspirator involved in a pattern of illegal international importation of tarantulas. A pattern of activity that Paul earlier denied on AB to the point of contriving conspiracy theories among other dealers.

This is all fine and dandy. However, the fact that another dealer (i.e. competition) was the one who posted this information makes the 'purpose' of this thread slightly more questionable. Couple that with the thread posted a couple weeks ago detailing Sven's trial posted by a dealer (i.e. competition) and it really makes you wonder what the true purpose is. Do I feel that 'we have a right to know'? Yep, I sure do. Do I think that's the real reason these threads were created? Not for a second. Had a typical hobbyist been following this case and started these threads, I'd feel differently. As it stands, I believe the dealers care more about the size of their wallets then the 'injustice' of our government.

Dealer's pricing

Do dealers mark up their imported stock to make up for import fees? Sure they do. Do they also mark up their domestic stock? Sure they do. It's been stated several times - it's a free market, buy from whomever you choose. I know for a fact that one dealer has made offers of pennies on the dollar for large quantities of WC domestic arachnids - one species of tarantula that produces 2-3k spiderlings per sac, and others for Florida native/established arachnids. Even though these animals are obtained for pennies, they still see the same markup as the imported stock. Dealers are great for bringing in the first few specimens of newly available stock, but if you want to buy something that's being produced by hobbyists, they're the ones you should be buying from.

Dealer's pricing part II

"baboonfan" has made what I feel to be pretty outlandish claims regarding dealer pricing. As I've already stated, I do feel that their markup can be a bit too much at times, and that markups are given across the board to both domestic and imported stock. That being said, "baboonfan", please PM me with reference links of these outlandish prices you mention, because I'd like to see them. Remember, you can't post links to FS ads here, so please PM them to me. Make sure you not only send me examples of the overpriced item, but examples of other FS ads where a comparable specimen is listed much cheaper.

My point is this: Just because one person has a P. cambridgei subadult female listed for, say, $120, doesn't make it overpriced because you think it should be worth less due to it already being 'well established'. If there aren't any other female P. cambridgei for sale at the time, then the going rate is, well, $120. If there's another female listed at $80, then you've still got to provide a bit more proof that $80 is a typical price for the animal, especially if the individual selling her for that price makes mention of needing to let their collection go cheap because they need the money. I need to see that there is an abundance of this species, with comparable price and, if necessary, gender. If you cannot provide that, then the argument is, in my opinion, invalid.

Either way, please send me what you have - I'd be quite interested to see it.

Krissy's last post

so don't hold a grudge. there is no reason to, unless he continues to do this. and i don't believe he will.

Your forgiveness is commendable, but this is not the first time he's been caught.

Thank you all for reading, this has been another exciting episode of "5 Minutes of Joe".

 

[spiderpets]

now imagine how paul must feel...

:liar:

He may not have needed to bring in excuses for why he did it, because excuse or no excuse, he committed a crime. and he admitted he was wrong. even if at first he denied it, at least he admitted it.

:clap:

he's paying the price for breaking the law. so don't hold a grudge. there is no reason to...

are you serious? which prize did he pay?

 

[Kirk]

Well now that you mention it... I can see your point perfectly. So long as it isn't against the law to order from him, I may continue to do so. But since i hardly order offline anyways, and he is the only one i HAVE ordered from (again, technically my sister. but i say "i ordered" because i made the selection for the T's I wanted.) He is the only person I have ordered offline from (my sister has gotten her own T's from others, but my only source of T's are Paul and the LPS) and I was happy with his service. I emailed and he replied rather quickly, he was very kind and considerate, and I like to believe that he was sincere with his words. And until there is proof of other such things, I will continue to believe this.

This is irrelevant to the issue brought to AB by the original posting of this thread.

To all those who say this act makes him such a horrible person and puts a bad mark on the hobby... Does this act make him worse than Alex080 who scammed dozens if not hundreds of people out of their money? what about brandon becker who scammed RobC? would you rather him have scammed someone out of their money (and i guess in some ways he has done this) or have him at least attempt to add more genes to a hobby in which variable genes are hard to find? Even if this act was done for selfish reasons, he probably would have sold those T's, they would have grown and possibly been bred, thus still adding new genes.
I suppose breaking federal law is worse than scamming but... I'm pretty sure scamming someone is against the law too! And I'm sure most of us have at least dealt with a scammer or knows someone who has, regardless of if it's in the T hobby or not. I know I have been scammed, and it did not make me feel too proud for even falling for it. Regardless of if you admit it to us or not, at least admit to yourself how ashamed or embarrassed you felt, or that you even felt it at all. I'm sure a lot of you have been embarrassed or ashamed over something.

And how does this relate to the court documents presented and Paul's earlier post in the Sven Koppler thread? [Rhetorical question.]

now imagine how paul must feel. I'm sure he's embarrassed for even doing this, he's ashamed, and probably very resentful. All of you who used to respect him, i'm sure we've ALL done something we wish we hadn't and that we regretted. I'm sure we've ALL angered someone or fought with someone and disappointed someone. I'm sure we've ALL made mistakes. Some big, some small. But the severity makes no difference. whoever you've disappointed or angered has forgiven you. If someone disappointed you, i'm sure you've forgiven them. no matter how big or small the reason was. You've forgiven them. It's not like he physically harmed someone. he made a mistake, he apologized. I'm sure it was sincere. He may not have needed to bring in excuses for why he did it, because excuse or no excuse, he committed a crime. and he admitted he was wrong. even if at first he denied it, at least he admitted it. he's paying the price for breaking the law. so don't hold a grudge. there is no reason to, unless he continues to do this. and i don't believe he will.

Naivety is the making of a defense attorney's dream of the perfect juror.

 

[Maxrpm]

Hello, and welcome to another episode of "5 Minutes of Joe".

WTH... That took me 1 minute to read. Where's my other 4 minutes???

I've been robbed

 

[Carrot]

correct me if i am wrong but i think paul was breaking federal law with the international brown boxing. domestic T shipping is not against federal law so its not that big of a deal, but it is still illegal

The Lacey act is a federal law, I believe. From what I've read, at the very least you need to put "wildlife" on the outside of the box, and include an easily accessible packing slip inside the package stating the common name, species and quantity of animals it contains.

On a corn snake message board, someone contacted Fish & Wildlife regarding the labeling requirements, and here is the e-mail they got back:

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=826763&postcount=44

So if you ship/receive a tarantula in an unlabeled box and/or without a packing slip, you are violating a federal law. Probably won't get caught, but you're still breaking it.

However, since USPS doesn't allow tarantulas in the first place, I'd wonder if it'd still be a violation of the Lacey Act even if you did label the box and included the packing slip.

 

[spiderpets]

The Lacey act is a federal law, I believe. From what I've read, at the very least you need to put "wildlife" on the outside of the box, and include an easily accessible packing slip inside the package stating the common name, species and quantity of animals it contains.

On a corn snake message board, someone contacted Fish & Wildlife regarding the labeling requirements, and here is the e-mail they got back:

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=826763&postcount=44

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=169351&highlight=usps+illegal



:wall:

 

[baboonfan]

Well now that you mention it... I can see your point perfectly. So long as it isn't against the law to order from him, I may continue to do so. But since i hardly order offline anyways, and he is the only one i HAVE ordered from (again, technically my sister. but i say "i ordered" because i made the selection for the T's I wanted.) He is the only person I have ordered offline from (my sister has gotten her own T's from others, but my only source of T's are Paul and the LPS) and I was happy with his service. I emailed and he replied rather quickly, he was very kind and considerate, and I like to believe that he was sincere with his words. And until there is proof of other such things, I will continue to believe this.

To all those who say this act makes him such a horrible person and puts a bad mark on the hobby... Does this act make him worse than Alex080 who scammed dozens if not hundreds of people out of their money? what about brandon becker who scammed RobC? would you rather him have scammed someone out of their money (and i guess in some ways he has done this) or have him at least attempt to add more genes to a hobby in which variable genes are hard to find? Even if this act was done for selfish reasons, he probably would have sold those T's, they would have grown and possibly been bred, thus still adding new genes.
I suppose breaking federal law is worse than scamming but... I'm pretty sure scamming someone is against the law too! And I'm sure most of us have at least dealt with a scammer or knows someone who has, regardless of if it's in the T hobby or not. I know I have been scammed, and it did not make me feel too proud for even falling for it. Regardless of if you admit it to us or not, at least admit to yourself how ashamed or embarrassed you felt, or that you even felt it at all. I'm sure a lot of you have been embarrassed or ashamed over something.
now imagine how paul must feel. I'm sure he's embarrassed for even doing this, he's ashamed, and probably very resentful. All of you who used to respect him, i'm sure we've ALL done something we wish we hadn't and that we regretted. I'm sure we've ALL angered someone or fought with someone and disappointed someone. I'm sure we've ALL made mistakes. Some big, some small. But the severity makes no difference. whoever you've disappointed or angered has forgiven you. If someone disappointed you, i'm sure you've forgiven them. no matter how big or small the reason was. You've forgiven them. It's not like he physically harmed someone. he made a mistake, he apologized. I'm sure it was sincere. He may not have needed to bring in excuses for why he did it, because excuse or no excuse, he committed a crime. and he admitted he was wrong. even if at first he denied it, at least he admitted it. he's paying the price for breaking the law. so don't hold a grudge. there is no reason to, unless he continues to do this. and i don't believe he will.

I wouldnt compare Paul to Alex080 or B becker in any way shape or form. Paul broke a few laws but he didnt rip his customers off. 6 Ts for 130.00 including the shipping is a steal, Ill spend as much as I can with such a dealer. He gets bonus points for having S cals too.

The biggest problem here is the fake shock and awe found in these posts regarding illegal imports. Much of what we have in the market today as captive bred specimens probably wouldnt exist for us if it hadnt been for illegal importers. The practice is far from uncommon. I just cant see him as anything but a guy who got caught.

 

[Fran]

<edit - MrD>


What Im saying here is that once we have showed, discussed and talked about what Paul has done, some dealers are taking the oportunity that they have been seeking for for a long time.

Im just pointing out that I dont believe one bit they have never engaged into Ilegal activities, and I believe this is a great oportunity for SOME to point the finger to ONLY ONE PERSON, as well as make believe to the general public that they are all legit and Paul was the black sheep.

That way people will think that is reasonable to pay the ridiculous prices SOME dealers have, and in the end, atract more buyers.

That is the type of Bullcrap they can sell to someone else, not me.

Now , since I pointed that out, they dont like it so they have to complain about me derailing the thread when in fact is perfectly related to the topic.