US Dealer Involved in Smuggling revealed in court documents

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

For the most part I have to agree with this.

For an example:

Dealer A imports 100 tarantulas legally and has to pay a $1000.00 import fee on them.

To cover the fee Dealer A now has to charge an additional $10.00 per tarantula. Lets say instead of the $40.00 Dealer A would've charged, they now have to charge $50.00.

Dealer B brown boxes 150 tarantulas into the country. Dealer B used the $1000.00 he would have had to pay in import fees to buy the extra 50. Well, that and the lower price the supplier gave him because he bought more. Dealer B now has 150 Tarantulas that he's able to sell at $20.00 a piece because, he didn't have to pay import fees and he got them at a cheaper price.

$20.00 may be cheaper, but is it really fair?

People seem to keep mixing up a fair price with whatever price they want to pay. The two aren't necessarily comparable.

Scott

Thank you!:clap:


Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates

 

[xenesthis]

If you buy from brown-boxing, illegal sellers, you are part of the problem, not the solution

Something that I'm seeing a few post about with the "price is everything mentality- I don't care if it is legal or not as long as I get my stuff cheap"....

I understand it's a bad economy and it's rough out there for the hobbyists. It's rough for everybody. Imports are harder to do and way more expensive than 3 yrs ago. USFWS inspection fees went up over 150% two yrs. ago. Air cargo costs have risen dramatically and with the recent fuel prices getting worse, it's going up more and more. Hobbyists don't pay the $800+ in import overhead and invest 2k, 3k or more into shipments to make everybody excited and happy with all the great species hobbyists have enjoyed the last three decades.

I was around in the '90s when the reptile trade was busted for all the illegal activity. One thing that I saw was Joe Smoe the hobbyist sometimes had his illegal animal confiscated. Joe Smoe cried and said that he was not the one that acquired it illegally...BUT..., yes it did from the original brown-boxing seller. Sometimes he got fined. If he did repeated business with an illegal seller bringing in stuff illegally without proper permits and adhering to fed. laws and regs, the feds would suspect he was part of the illegal scheme.

This mentality of "I don't care if it's legal or not, I just want my sling for cheap" is soooooooo misguided. If this continues or increases, we will not have a hobby to bitch about. Sellers on the net that brown-boxed in wildlife from foreign countries so they didn't have to pay import costs, so they can gain a market advantage and become the hobby's "cheap price darling" HURT our hobby. Joe Smoe can have his wildlife confiscated when they find out the illegal seller sold it to them.

Instead of this misguided attitude of "I don't care as long as I get my stuff cheap", you better care. Our hobby can be restricted and made even more expensive very quickly. Our hobby has no official lobby and is too loosely organized to stop that from happening. A seller's brown-boxing from overseas hurts everybody and be glad you have a hobby today as it can be taken away from you in the near future. For those that continue to support brown-boxing, illegal sellers, you are part of the problem. Not the solution. You are enabling these people. Big Brother is here now in our hobby. It will get worse. Our hobby will become more restrictive and expensive. Mark these words.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

I understand that there are alot of us that dont make the money we wish too, here's an example. When I was 18 I was only making $3.35 hourly and that was back in 1989, bought my first tarantula at that year. I couldn't afford those high end spider that I saw at the local petstore, my point to this is you cant compare to someone that is 40 years old now to an 18 year old that just became a man. I wish I could buy a Ferrari but I cant, cause I cant afford it.

Dealers dont have a link to their website of the following:

18 to 21 if you make $5,000.00 a year you pay for your spiders at this price

22 to 26 if you make $10,000.00 a year you you pay for your spiders at this
price


The prices are set for a reason regardless of age race or how much you make a year. Does this make any sense? There are other dealers that are respectable besides Paul! Open your eyes and look.


Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates

 

[baboonfan]

Ask yourself this question, why did he have fair prices? Why did he have larger selection? Now go back and read the documents over again and you'll find the answer. Think about it a bit. If KenTheBugGuy or other dealers were doing the same thing as Paul, I'm sure they would be having the biggest collection that Paul has and the best prices. True or not true?

Here are some items that have been stablished for decades, gasoline, clothes, food, electronics, diapers, bicycles, automobile, airfair, cigarretes, furnitures, girlfriends, school, trips, long distance phone calls, toilet paper, paper towels, medicine, etc, etc, etc, I can go on and on. Do you think the prices are going to go down for all this items that we need? BIG NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now ask youself why? Please someone give me a good answer to all this!

You the public that want to buy from Paul, you have that right to choose! Maybe someone out to start a poll, just a suggestion? Wether that will make any difference to alot of you.:?

What Todd and Ken were trying to do is to inform you the public that has the right to know who is doing the illegal importation of live tarantulas in our Nation, that's all. If you wish to support someone was doing the illegal importation, than you're no different of supporting someone that just sold to a minor illegal drugs. If I'm wrong than tell me so. Thanks for any feedback!


Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates

He had fair prices because he wanted people to come back for more. Look at the other dealers. They charge an arm and a leg for CB slings that are common and well established. Why? They have it in their heads that future business doesnt matter, they want to make their profit right now. Their strategy is to mark everything up a few hundred percentiles for a fast buck. Pauls strategy was to charge a low mark up percentile and make his profits a little slower while selling more units. <edit - MrD> Being overly greedy doesnt make them saints who would never break the law.

You think we should all pay as much as possible for everything in our homes out of generosity for business owners looking to make massive profits really really fast? Most well established items do fall in price over time. Look at electronics, and long distance calls. Nobody could afford an LCD TV not long ago, now they sell for the same price the old massive boob tubes sold for. Long distance is alot cheaper. Why should I pay 300,000.00 USD for a well established T thats been bred for more than 20 years? As a market saturates with an item the price usually falls, but that hasnt proven true with Ts as many dealers do rip their customers off.

P cambridgei is a good example. They have been around in the hobby forever, they have been bred over and over. In the mid 90s they were so well established that some mail order dealers were selling them for 10.00. The year is now 2011 and you can still find greedy dealers who want 40.00 to 100.00 for them! Import fees do not explain this as the current stock is all captive bred. There are ton of other good examples of common high mark ups on the market.

I dont feel guilty for paying a fair price at all. I bought two P cambridgei for 40.00. My last oder with Paul was 130.00 for 6 Ts, and that included the shipping fee.

 

[xenesthis]

"He had fair prices because......" - they were illegal

"He had fair prices because......" - they were illegal

It is detailed in the court docs Ken posted. He didn't pay import overhead, that is how the cheap prices were made available - period.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

He had fair prices because he wanted people to come back for more. Look at the other dealers. They charge an arm and a leg for CB slings that are common and well established. Why? They have it in their heads that future business doesnt matter, they want to make their profit right now. Their strategy is to mark everything up a few hundred percentiles for a fast buck. Pauls strategy was to charge a low mark up percentile and make his profits a little slower while selling more units.<edit - MrD> Being overly greedy doesnt make them saints who would never break the law.

You think we should all pay as much as possible for everything in our homes out of generosity for business owners looking to make massive profits really really fast? Most well established items do fall in price over time. Look at electronics, and long distance calls. Nobody could afford an LCD TV not long ago, now they sell for the same price the old massive boob tubes sold for. Long distance is alot cheaper. Why should I pay 300,000.00 USD for a well established T thats been bred for more than 20 years? As a market saturates with an item the price usually falls, but that hasnt proven true with Ts as many dealers do rip their customers off.

P cambridgei is a good example. They have been around in the hobby forever, they have been bred over and over. In the mid 90s they were so well established that some mail order dealers were selling them for 10.00. The year is now 2011 and you can still find greedy dealers who want 40.00 to 100.00 for them! Import fees do not explain this as the current stock is all captive bred. There are ton of other good examples of common high mark ups on the market.

I dont feel guilty for paying a fair price at all. I bought two P cambridgei for 40.00. My last oder with Paul was 130.00 for 6 Ts, and that included the shipping fee.

Which part is it that you are not understanding read the court documents your answer is in front of you. It is not because he was been nice.



Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates

 

[baboonfan]

I understand that there are alot of us that dont make the money we wish too, here's an example. When I was 18 I was only making $3.35 hourly and that was back in 1989, bought my first tarantula at that year. I couldn't afford those high end spider that I saw at the local petstore, my point to this is you cant compare to someone that is 40 years old now to an 18 year old that just became a man. I wish I could buy a Ferrari but I cant, cause I cant afford it.

Dealers dont have a link to their website of the following:

18 to 21 if you make $5,000.00 a year you pay for your spiders at this price

22 to 26 if you make $10,000.00 a year you you pay for your spiders at this
price

Regardless of what we make we shouldnt be expected to run out and look for the highest possible price. I make a lousy 50,000.00 per year, 20.00 for a sling sounds reasonable to me. 300,000,000,000.00 for the same sling doesnt sound reasonable at all. These dealers arent paying import fees for well established captive bred Ts they still overcharge for. There is no excuse for alot of the prices I see.

<edit - MrD>

 

[Fran]

More BULL mixed with a truth custom.

There is no other reason than greed,whatsoever , for having a female Lasiodora klugi priced at $1200 <edit>.

Price them as you wish, but dont try to justify whats not possible to justify.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

I understand that there are alot of us that dont make the money we wish too, here's an example. When I was 18 I was only making $3.35 hourly and that was back in 1989, bought my first tarantula at that year. I couldn't afford those high end spider that I saw at the local petstore, my point to this is you cant compare to someone that is 40 years old now to an 18 year old that just became a man. I wish I could buy a Ferrari but I cant, cause I cant afford it.

Dealers dont have a link to their website of the following:

18 to 21 if you make $5,000.00 a year you pay for your spiders at this price

22 to 26 if you make $10,000.00 a year you you pay for your spiders at this
price

Regardless of what we make we shouldnt be expected to run out and look for the highest possible price. I make a lousy 50,000.00 per year, 20.00 for a sling sounds reasonable to me. 300,000,000,000.00 for the same sling doesnt sound reasonable at all. These dealers arent paying import fees for well established captive bred Ts they still overcharge for. There is no excuse for alot of the prices I see.
<edit - MrD>

$50.000.00 per year, you make more than I do, AND YOUR COMPLAINING ABOUT PRICES!!!!!!!!!!


Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates

 

[baboonfan]

"He had fair prices because......" - they were illegal

It is detailed in the court docs Ken posted. He didn't pay import overhead, that is how the cheap prices were made available - period.

This doesnt explain it all. His prices on well established domestic CB slings were lower than everyone else. Other dealers ARE NOT paying import fees for well established domestic captive bred units.

<edit - MrD> He just wasnt as greedy with his profit percentile.

Any dealer who tells you his ridiculous prices are based on having to pay import fees on domestic captive bred units is lying to you.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

This doesnt explain it all. His prices on well established domestic CB slings were lower than everyone else. Other dealers ARE NOT paying import fees for well established domestic captive bred units.

<edit - MrD>. He just wasnt as greedy with his profit percentile.

Any dealer who tells you his ridiculous prices are based on having to pay import fees on domestic captive bred units is lying to you.

According to some people's mentality, I guess we are creating a new standard:


Announcing the "How to become a nice guy, respected and loved in the Tarantula Business Guide"


• Acquire wildlife illegally from foreign sellers through brown-boxing shipments without declaring the contents to customs and having USFWS inspect and clear the shipment. Break international CITES law and U.S. laws and regulations.
• Sell the stock at low prices undercutting your competition and become the "cheap price darling dealer" of the hobby.
• Roll in the money, grin and be very happy about how you got over on everybody and talk real nice on the phone to all these new customers.
• When caught, to save your own tail, point fingers at your competiton and shove your bus. partner's under the bus making them the bigger target than yourself.
• Continue to lie to the hobby about what you did, then when court docs are posted, go for the sob story excuses to gain sympathy.
• Circle the wagons with your existing customers and have them go on a crisis communications campaign defending you for being such a nice guy.
• Soon to be published at a CHEAP price!



Jose Berrios
Exoskleton Invertebrates

 

[Bill S]

I was around in the '90s when the reptile trade was busted for all the illegal activity.

Actually, that makes an interesting comparison. I think the illegal reptile trade was far worse "in the day" than tarantula trade is today, including the events being discussed in this forum. There have certainly been more negative reports in the news, more public awareness of illegal reptile trading than the spider trade has ever had. And it has caused some restrictions on the trade - but it certainly did not destroy the hobby. If anything, reptile hobbyists are far more common and mainstream today than they ever were back in the '60s and '70s when I was first deeply into it. True, I can no longer buy a puff adder at the local dealer's shop for $15, or buy an Egyptian cobra from a fellow hobbyist for $40. (And yes, I did both of these when I was a teenager.) But there's as wide a variety of animals out there for sale as there ever was, and loads more people keeping, breeding and selling reptiles than ever before. That's why I'm just not swallowing the idea that Sven getting busted and Paul being implicated is the "kiss of death" for our hobby that some of the doomsday people in this discussion are suggesting.

 

[baboonfan]

More BULL mixed with a truth custom.

There is no other reason than greed,whatsoever , for having a female Lasiodora klugi priced at $1200, <edit>.

Price them as you wish, but dont try to justify whats not possible to justify.

Thank you! I cant agree more.The excuse they fall back on is "uhhh I need 3 million dollars for these captive bred rosies because I have to pay massive import fees on animals I buy from domestic breeders...." Its all crap!

There are so few good dealers out there that we cant afford to lose Paul. Hardly anyone else wants a low profit percentile. Hardly anyone else really tries to work with a customer to strike a good deal for both parties. <edit - MrD> How can a CB sling well established within domestic borders for more than 20 years cost 4 times as much as they did 15 years ago?

 

[xenesthis]

illegal stock

"How can a CB sling well established within domestic borders for more than 20 years cost 4 times as much as they did 15 years ago? "

You are missing the point. Paul wasn't captive-breeding much of anything. He insulted CB breeders around the country with the destruction of many species market value.

He brought them into the country via brown-boxing. That is how he did it. Look at the court docs!

"There are so few good dealers out there that we cant afford to lose Paul." - NO, it's the other way around. Paul could not compete. So, he cheated over and over. It's all in the court docs.

 

[Fran]

Todd;

Just for you to understand, I will say it ONCE MORE. Now take your time and read carefully;

1. I, Francisco Estevez DO NOT SUPORT BROWN BOXING or ANY OTHER ILEGAL ACTIVITY.

2. I also dont believe the crap most of you try to sell us hobbiest to overprice your stock.

3. I believe in free market, I believe you can price your stuff as you wish.BUT, dont try to lie to my face. Your prices are sky high because YOU want to make a ver high proffit.

4. I believe Paul Becker has done wrong, and he must face the consecuences.
<edit - MrD>

 

[Bill S]

On a another note and on the thread's topic, Bill you are right, the reptile trade is bigger than the invert trade and gets more news, but this brown-boxing thing is a bad start in the wrong direction.

Agreed. I'm in favor of measures to control it. When Paul got caught by pure bad luck, he still got caught doing something he shouldn't have. And he should be busted for it. But what should have been a small legitimate bust got turned by bureaucratic feds into something completely out of line, and is now being turned into a circus on this discussion board. Some private communications I've had while this discussion has been taking place suggest that the feds aren't the only ones to blame for blowing up a small charge into a major one, and sadly it appears that people within the hobby were responsible for the worst of it.

 

[baboonfan]

"How can a CB sling well established within domestic borders for more than 20 years cost 4 times as much as they did 15 years ago? "

You are missing the point. Paul wasn't captive-breeding much of anything. He insulted CB breeders around the country with the destruction of many species market value.

He brought them into the country via brown-boxing. That is how he did it. Look at the court docs!

"There are so few good dealers out there that we cant afford to lose Paul." - NO, it's the other way around. Paul could not compete. So, he cheated over and over. It's all in the court docs.

Again, this brown boxing doesnt explain everything. Go to the dealers who are "exposing" Paul to look at their price lists. They have CB slings of species that have been common within our DOMESTIC market for over 20 years priced at 4 times what they costed 15 years ago. Import fees do not explain this. They want you to think what they have is special and rare, thus "high end". I saw a 90.00 price tag on a P cambridgei not too long ago while cruising around on the web. Those were almost all captive bred in the domestic market and sold for 10.00 15 years ago! I grant that 90.00 for that T isnt common but other dealers really do want 35.00 and over 40.00 for them even though they should be selling for alot less. Kelly Swift being a good dealer did of course have a similar price to Paul, but look at the common prices listed by these supposedly honest dealers.

I know he broke the law, that isnt debated. <edit - MrD> I think he existed as a pain in the butt for them because his price lists exposed their absurd and greedy 300 percent markups for common and well established items. I am not paying 400 million dollars for a P cambridgei just because some dealer wants me to believe he pays an import fee on a domestic purchase.

I highly doubt all of my purchases from him were imported illegally and sold as CB slings.

 

[Kirk]

He had fair prices because he wanted people to come back for more. Look at the other dealers. They charge an arm and a leg for CB slings that are common and well established. Why? They have it in their heads that future business doesnt matter, they want to make their profit right now. Their strategy is to mark everything up a few hundred percentiles for a fast buck. Pauls strategy was to charge a low mark up percentile and make his profits a little slower while selling more units. <edit - MrD>. Being overly greedy doesnt make them saints who would never break the law.

Please provide us with evidence for your claims of knowing the motivations and practices of 'other dealers.' Otherwise, this is just unfounded, libelous hyperbole that has no place in this thread.

 

[Cuddly Cobalt]

According to some people's mentality, I guess we are creating a new standard:


Announcing the "How to become a nice guy, respected and loved in the Tarantula Business Guide"


• Acquire wildlife illegally from foreign sellers through brown-boxing shipments without declaring the contents to customs and having USFWS inspect and clear the shipment. Break international CITES law and U.S. laws and regulations.
• Sell the stock at low prices undercutting your competition and become the "cheap price darling dealer" of the hobby.
• Roll in the money, grin and be very happy about how you got over on everybody and talk real nice on the phone to all these new customers.
• When caught, to save your own tail, point fingers at your competiton and shove your bus. partner's under the bus making them the bigger target than yourself.
• Continue to lie to the hobby about what you did, then when court docs are posted, go for the sob story excuses to gain sympathy.
• Circle the wagons with your existing customers and have them go on a crisis communications campaign defending you for being such a nice guy.
• Soon to be published at a CHEAP price!



Jose Berrios
Exoskleton Invertebrates

well worded, thats exactly what Paul did, I highly doubt any of the other bug dealers would do anything like this. Ken the bug guy is more expensive because he didnt break the law

 

[Cuddly Cobalt]

Also if you look at the prices of Ts in other countries you can see that it is much cheaper, an adult female A.versicolor can cost 40$ in europe, while its more like 100$ here. That is also why Paul listed everything cheaper

<edit - MrD>