As I read this thread, it is not a shocker to know that there are so many hypocrites on this board (Human nature). I will continue to buy from Paul. He has provided superb services to me. This drama shows the depravity of man, and is a mirrored reflection of our own devious nature. We just weren’t caught.
US Dealer Involved in Smuggling revealed in court documents
- Thread starter KenTheBugGuy
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2009
- Messages
- 843
Ohh well, you must struggle with morals.... :?
I don't get it? Climb over the man and use his gun?
Basically!....
I dont agree with what paul did, but how can you be sure another dealer wouldnt do the same in that exact position??.Its just human nature.., at the end his services are still far more superior than any dealer I have ever dealt with, cant forget about his rapid response and what he did for us as costumers. Ifthere is no actual crime in buying from him, I will continue to purchase from him. This is more to benefit other vendors, as I assume they will be absorbing a good amount of pauls costumers.
Absolutely correct. Most of the people crying the loudest about how he should not have cooperated with the feds are, oddly enough, the same ones who cry that he should not have broken the laws in the first place - they're talking out of both sides of their mouths. The people who condemn him for cooperating are most likely people who have never been in a similar position themselves - Monday morning quarterbacks who are loud about how they would have won the game if only they'd been there.
In truth, Paul did not have a choice. If he had refused to cooperate the feds would have nailed him to the wall to make an example out of him. And they would have subpoenaed all his business records and gotten the information anyway. There is nothing he told them that they wouldn't have gotten one way or the other.
The real damage done to the hobby here (which is probably a lot less than some people here are making of it) came from two other sources. The federal prosecuters pitched a phony line about the tarantulas that Sven sent over as being wild caught endangered species. This does not seem to be supported by the evidence, but even the false implication is enough to get other conservation groups excited. The other is the curious statement by Rick West that based on what he had seen, the tarantulas were wild caught. He does not explain how he determines this in the court statement, which is neither ethically nor scientifically good. He should have either presented his reasons for assuming this or refrained from making such a statement. Sven's lawyers should have pounced on this, but they didn't. This may be because they were public defenders assigned to the case and less than inspired, or because they figured it wasn't important if Sven was going to plead guilty to the charge of importing without proper paperwork anyway. If West had a good reason for believing that the spiders were wild caught, he should have presented it - otherwise he is just fueling the fire for no good reason. And again, it's this kind of representation that causes damage to the hobby.
As to how much damage this whole incident will do - it got very little news coverage. Outside of people in the hobby and on this (and similar) boards, the average person never read the news story, or if they did they forgot about it a short time later. Few if any will ever be inspired to take any action over it. And of those who read the news stories and paid any attention to them, the name of Paul Becker was never mentioned, and the case against him was unmentioned and unknown. It still remains unknown to the general public. The rants about how much damage Paul has done are pretty much a tempest in a teapot.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2010
- Messages
- 629
@Bill S
I couldn't agree more.
I couldn't agree more.
NO, everyone on this this thread is struggling with a "moral" issue. :?
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2009
- Messages
- 1,287
@ those who feel this thread should be closed...
The whole point of a forum is to encourage discussion and debate - any contributions outside of the rules already clearly laid out will no doubt be moderated and dealt with appropriately.
I'm all for using one's own brain to reach a final opinion, but, why not hear multiple points of view along the way to better inform that decision? Additionally, if you've got to the stage of no longer desiring to read any more, simply avoid clicking and reading any more, it's quite straightforward really.
My 2p anyway.
The whole point of a forum is to encourage discussion and debate - any contributions outside of the rules already clearly laid out will no doubt be moderated and dealt with appropriately.
I'm all for using one's own brain to reach a final opinion, but, why not hear multiple points of view along the way to better inform that decision? Additionally, if you've got to the stage of no longer desiring to read any more, simply avoid clicking and reading any more, it's quite straightforward really.
My 2p anyway.
I hope he doesnt shut down. I did business with him in the past and I would really like to do alot more business with him in the future. His selection is amazing, his prices are are more than fair, and he knows how to treat his customers. Losing Paul would be a blow to the market as we wiould end up with dealers with 1/3rd the selection at 3 times the price to take his place.
I lost my collection to an Iraq tour and had a very hard time starting over with everything I wanted. Nobody has S. cals for example. Paul had nearly everything I wanted, I could order everything while paying for shipping only once.
I have nothing to do with his relations with other dealers, but he really earns loyalty from customers.
---------- Post added at 09:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 AM ----------
I hope I get to order from him again. Name another dealer with his selection and fair prices. Ive been buying Ts mail since the 90s and I can honestly say that PetCenter USA is probably one of the best I have ever run across. Most times T keepers have to find one thing they want and order it with shipping fees, then find another dealer for another T and pay for shipping all over again.Ah, I see now. I wasn't sure what this was all about. I knew bits and pieces but since i hadnt read the documents I wasnt too sure.
And, since Paul said he was "awaiting sentencing" so-to-speak, he has apparently been proven guilty. And besides, after reading everyone's opinions, I was beginning to understand what this was about and that he was guilty in some way. I don't know whether his apology was sincere. I don't know if i'll ever order from him again.
and I'm pretty sure most people who get into "hobbies" and breed in those hobbies, have some idea of gaining profit. even though everything i read on just about breeding any animal states that this is no way to gain profit, obviously people still do it. So usually if someone is breeding an animal, they want some kind of profit. I do, however, understand there are exceptions to every situations. so please do not take this the wrong wayI do not mean to offend or accuse anyone.
I will be more cautious with who i order from. And i suggest everyone else do the same. This is no reason to stop ordering offline. there are many reputable breeders out there. And i will be one to admit i ordered from paul because he was cheaper. but also because other sellers didn't have any versis left or didnt have GBBs but also because he was helpful. I also saw he had many positive reviews. (well technically my sister ordered from him, but the T's were for both of us) I don't know if i will buy from him anymore. But i probably won't be buying from many people anyway, I have better and more important things for my money to go towards, and since i dont have a "taxable" job, i dont have much money and must save what i do get for my current animals (guinea pigs fish and a hamster. im a babysitter/petsitter btw hence the not taxable job)
As far as illegal importation goes I dont judge him. The entire exotic pets market wouldnt exist without illegal importations. We live in a world where most people think its ok to buy a gram of coke or a bag of weed while thinking of themselves as "nonviolent" and guilty of victimless crimes. Nevermind the obvious evidence of the destruction of whole communities and mass murder commited by those who deal in the "victimless" products. Sorry folks, what Paul did isnt a big deal. Prosecuting exotic pets dealers for this sort of thing is a waste of tax payer funds. Exotic pets dealers arent slaughtering families wholesale, turning American neighborhoods into warzones, and killing our youth.
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2007
- Messages
- 4,933
My guess would be that he dosn't have as good of a selection or as good prices anymore.
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2009
- Messages
- 1,649
Ok, thank you Bill, I think I made my point. Pay whatever you like, there are plenty of people selling Ts at good prices, including some of the bigger dealers. I've also found most will work with you if you are courteous and polite. But now, knowing what you know, I just don't get how you can still say that....
Last edited:
Please note that the feds never lift a finger to enforce other laws, yet they had all of the boys feeling like real G men when it came time to go after paul with a few scary looking spiders. Maybe they should put 1/8th as much effort into enforcing our borders huh? I wonder how many real criminals Agent Montouri has had the courage to go after, I will bet none.
This is a good job for Americas law enforcement. Once again they managed to find criminals who werent the least bit risky to bust.
I just hope the Gmen dont have to drag him out in the street and shoot him so they can look real tough.
The laws are stupid and based on fearmongering lies. More effort should be aimed at real criminals who tend to be violent. There are other importation businesses that cause alot of very real harm, yet the agent Montouris of the world cant be bothered to go after them because it isnt safe.
My thoughts exactly.
---------- Post added at 07:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 AM ----------
Keep in mind that if you make false accusations against him, especially ones that can hurt his business or his reputation, he has legal recourse to sue you. Are you sure you want to go public with accusations that he's dealing stolen goods?
Save up? Bill Gates could go broke overnight with some of the prices Ive seen. Do you really think you need to pay more than 19.00 for an S cal sling? I usually refuse to pay more than 40.00 for anything, anyone with a mid twenties price for the 40.00 T is going to win my business.
Most dealers I see today are inflating their prices as high as possible. Many of the Ts they sell have been bred for decades yet they charge as if the T is new to the hobby and rare. I refuse to pay in the hundreds for Ts that are well established and common. I recently saw an ad for a Trinidad Chevron selling for 90.00. Paul had them for a little over 20.00.
I work over 70 hours per week and even I cant afford the prices the average dealer charges. Prices should be fair to the customer. These dealers we see today really think it isnt possible to make a profit without ripping people off. Paul didnt rip us off and he still made a profit.
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2010
- Messages
- 1,309
Hmm.. And here I was thinking that busting those who illegally import products was enforcing our borders. Silly me.
Good point. He wasnt fencing stolen goods. He just had fair prices and a better selection than everyone else. I think the other dealers should all be alot more like Paul. My advise to them is stop charging absurd fees for CB slings that have been well established in the hobby for the last 2 decades.
Can the Feds just take over someones email and identity and pretend to be anyone they want to be? The don't need permission?
Whether or not all this would have happened anyway without Paul's cooperation is a huge assumption. And so what if he got "nailed to the wall". Is there a particular reason why someone who breaks the law shouldn't face the consequences of their actions? When you make a conscious decision to break the rules then you must be willing to face the consequences if you get caught. PERIOD.
Whether or not all this would have happened anyway without Paul's cooperation is a huge assumption. And so what if he got "nailed to the wall". Is there a particular reason why someone who breaks the law shouldn't face the consequences of their actions? When you make a conscious decision to break the rules then you must be willing to face the consequences if you get caught. PERIOD.
Jeff, the quote you have above your statement did not come from me. I have not taken a stand one way or the other regarding dealing with Paul. Most of my dealing has been with other people, especially with Ken. Will I buy from Paul in the future? Maybe. But that decision will be made at that time and will be based on whatever factors that I see as important at that time.
My gripe with this discussion is the mob mentality that so eagerly condemns Paul for doing something that is fairly common in the business. I've bought from him in the past, and have bought from other well-known dealers. They all shipped their tarantulas the same way - through the mail. And many other people in this discussion have done the same, using the same tricks that Paul is being condemned for using.
If Paul is proven guilty of illegally importing endangered species, I will hold that against him. I'm not going to get bent out of shape because he tried to sneak imports into the country by labeling them as "scientific materials". Same with Sven - it appears he is being falsely accused of importing wild caught protected species, but his real crime (the one he's serving time for) is just evading import fees. It's reasonable he gets his hand slapped for this - but the accusations should be honest and the penalty realistic.
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2007
- Messages
- 1,101
Ask yourself this question, why did he have fair prices? Why did he have larger selection? Now go back and read the documents over again and you'll find the answer. Think about it a bit. If KenTheBugGuy or other dealers were doing the same thing as Paul, I'm sure they would be having the biggest collection that Paul has and the best prices. True or not true?
Here are some items that have been stablished for decades, gasoline, clothes, food, electronics, diapers, bicycles, automobile, airfair, cigarretes, furnitures, girlfriends, school, trips, long distance phone calls, toilet paper, paper towels, medicine, etc, etc, etc, I can go on and on. Do you think the prices are going to go down for all this items that we need? BIG NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now ask youself why? Please someone give me a good answer to all this!
You the public that want to buy from Paul, you have that right to choose! Maybe someone out to start a poll, just a suggestion? Wether that will make any difference to alot of you.:?
What Todd and Ken were trying to do is to inform you the public that has the right to know who is doing the illegal importation of live tarantulas in our Nation, that's all. If you wish to support someone was doing the illegal importation, than you're no different of supporting someone that just sold to a minor illegal drugs. If I'm wrong than tell me so. Thanks for any feedback!
Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates
Here are some items that have been stablished for decades, gasoline, clothes, food, electronics, diapers, bicycles, automobile, airfair, cigarretes, furnitures, girlfriends, school, trips, long distance phone calls, toilet paper, paper towels, medicine, etc, etc, etc, I can go on and on. Do you think the prices are going to go down for all this items that we need? BIG NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now ask youself why? Please someone give me a good answer to all this!
You the public that want to buy from Paul, you have that right to choose! Maybe someone out to start a poll, just a suggestion? Wether that will make any difference to alot of you.:?
What Todd and Ken were trying to do is to inform you the public that has the right to know who is doing the illegal importation of live tarantulas in our Nation, that's all. If you wish to support someone was doing the illegal importation, than you're no different of supporting someone that just sold to a minor illegal drugs.
If I'm wrong than tell me so. Thanks for any feedback!Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates
Last edited:
Bill Paul isn't being condemned for shipping his T's via USPS in the U.S. He's being hammered for avoiding the payment of import fees and taxes on T's imported from overseas. I don't know how you can imply that people importing T's illegally is "fairly common" in the business.
I've never sent, or received T's in a box shipped via USPS that was purposely mislabeled to avoid detection.
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2002
- Messages
- 2,001
For the most part I have to agree with this.Ask yourself this question, why did he have fair prices? Why did he have larger selection? Now go back and read the documents over again and you'll find the answer. Think about it a bit. If KenTheBugGuy or other dealers were doing the same thing as Paul, I'm sure they would be having the biggest collection that Paul has and the best prices. True or not true?
Here are some items that have been stablished for decades, gasoline, clothes, food, electronics, diapers, bicycles, automobile, airfair, cigarretes, furnitures, girlfriends, school, trips, long distance phone calls, toilet paper, paper towels, medicine, etc, etc, etc, I can go on and on. Do you think the prices are going to go down for all this items that we need? BIG NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now ask youself why? Please someone give me a good answer to all this!
You the public that want to buy from Paul, you have that right to choose! Maybe someone out to start a poll, just a suggestion? Wether that will make any difference to alot of you.:?
What Todd and Ken were trying to do is to inform you the public that has the right to know who is doing the illegal importation of live tarantulas in our Nation, that's all. If you wish to support someone was doing the illegal importation, than you're no different of supporting someone that just sold to a minor illegal drugs.
Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates
For an example:
Dealer A imports 100 tarantulas legally and has to pay a $1000.00 import fee on them.
To cover the fee Dealer A now has to charge an additional $10.00 per tarantula. Lets say instead of the $40.00 Dealer A would've charged, they now have to charge $50.00.
Dealer B brown boxes 150 tarantulas into the country. Dealer B used the $1000.00 he would have had to pay in import fees to buy the extra 50. Well, that and the lower price the supplier gave him because he bought more. Dealer B now has 150 Tarantulas that he's able to sell at $20.00 a piece because, he didn't have to pay import fees and he got them at a cheaper price.
$20.00 may be cheaper, but is it really fair?
People seem to keep mixing up a fair price with whatever price they want to pay. The two aren't necessarily comparable.
Scott
- Status