US Dealer Involved in Smuggling revealed in court documents

[Redneck]

Unfortunately, Redneck, ignorance does not hold up in court. As the buyer we are obligated to check the credentials of our sellers/suppliers.
I am however with you on this one. The average hobbyist buying a couple specimen for himself is not going to be looking for proper export/import documentation. They are simply looking to get a beautiful specimen for their personal, private enjoyment.

No, I understand ignorance does not hold up in court... I have pointed several people in the direction of this thread. Do you know how many of them actually knew that there was a rumor of this is the past? None.

Are we supposed to ask the dealer we buy from if we are buying illegally imported stock? Are we suppose to ask for import documents?

How are we, as customers, guilty for supporting some BBing seller, if we dont know they are brown boxing? I personally wouldnt know what a real import document looks like. So, if I did ask for import documents, I wouldnt know if I was looking at the real deal or fake that was just typed up to show off...

 

[Fran]

It doesnt matter. They can have the documents, and never used them for a particular box.

Its imposible to know and extremely pointless to question... And you wont face the same consecuences anyway.

 

[MrDeranged]

Administrators Note: There now, that's better...

Alright all,

I just deleted almost 2 pages worth of posts and probably edited out another pages worth of content from individual posts. I will not do that again.

If you're going to accuse someone of something illegal you better have proof of it and be able to post it or your post will be deleted PERIOD.

If you think your posts removal or editing was unwarranted, I don't want to hear it Chalk it up as one of those cases where we reserve the right to remove anything we want without an explanation and move on.

Keep the thread on topic or next time I'll just delete everything past the first post and lock it.

Regards,
Scott

 

[ArachnidSentinl]

Well -- aside from the drama -- this discussion has been rather enlightening. Thank you to those who provided the court documentation and other evidence.

It's always been obvious to me that the 'boards are full of passionate people with strong loyalties (and rivalries), thus on some level it doesn't surprise me that this issue is so polarizing. What does surprise me, however, is some individuals' complete lack of interest in maintaining some level of ethical standards within the hobby. It seems to me that there's an "ends justify the means" mentality that is highly prevalent amongst some of our fellow invert enthusiasts. I would challenge those individuals who believe that circumventing federal laws is justifiable so that they can purchase animals at a lower cost to consider the ramifications of these actions. No one is completely innocent, of course, but continuing to knowingly support individuals who engage in illegal import/export behavior is irresponsible when considering the health of the hobby as a whole.

Again, as a individual who is relatively new to the hobby (relative to all you heavy-hitters, of course...I'm a weekend warrior, so to speak), this has been an educational thread. I will be much more vigilant when purchasing inverts from dealers in the future, and I would encourage others to do the same. Even if we don't get caught for skimping on import fees or more expensive domestic shipping options, I personally feel as though we owe it to ourselves, our hobby, and our animals to hold ourselves to a higher standard.

 

[Fran]

If I may add to the conversation,

There are people sayiong over and over that we need and we must make sure everything they sell us has been obtained under the law, prior buying from a dealer/seller...
That is IMPOSIBLE.

As I said and commented with other people here, anybody can show you the propper paperwork,permits and plain tickets and that doesnt proof ANYTHING.

A dealer can tell you "Yes, everything is legal , heres my papers", and still obtain the spiders ilegaly. Asking wont hurt, but also wont make any difference since they wont obviously tell you "Yes, I brown boxed".

If we as buyers can not know if they are lying to us or not,the admins cant either -And is not their job-. So for those who think someone here was supporting his/their brown boxing by allowing them to sell on the classified section, makes absolutely no sense.

 

[ArachnidSentinl]

...That is IMPOSIBLE....Asking wont hurt, but also wont make any difference since they wont obviously tell you "Yes, I brown boxed"...

Perhaps instead of focusing on what we can't do we should focus on what we can do. For instance, how can we encourage legal domestic shipping of tarantulas rather than shipping illegally through USPS? We obviously can't stop all irresponsible activity in the hobby, but if we're collectively a little more conscientious on an individual basis we may just accomplish something. I realize that's an idealist attitude, but I find it much more appealing than surrendering to the "impossibility" of improvement.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

who cares

Far more important ...please come show your support
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?p=1888449#post1888449

 

[Fran]

Perhaps instead of focusing on what we can't do we should focus on what we can do. For instance, how can we encourage legal domestic shipping of tarantulas rather than shipping illegally through USPS? We obviously can't stop all irresponsible activity in the hobby, but if we're collectively a little more conscientious on an individual basis we may just accomplish something. I realize that's an idealist attitude, but I find it much more appealing than surrendering to the "impossibility" of improvement.

There not much room for improvement, unfortunately, since money is everything that matters to people.
People wont pay for the $50-75 that costs shipping something via Fedex-without a bussines account-.

 

[Chripin]

I got caught doing something wrong….

I appreciate your response to this thread, and I hope you pull through this event, because I am willing to give you a second chance.

Stay on the straight and narrow path, Paul.

 

[Bill S]

There are people sayiong over and over that we need and we must make sure everything they sell us has been obtained under the law, prior buying from a dealer/seller...
That is IMPOSIBLE.

Correct. There have also been suggestions that the individual customer could be held responsible for purchasing something that had been illegally imported, and that is simply not true. If you buy something from what is to all appearances an honest business, you have no legal obligations to verify how that business obtained its products, and you cannot be held accountable for products that you buy from them. The very worst that can happen is that if the product you buy is determined to be illegal, it could be confiscated from you. For example, I remember years ago a local gun shop sold receivers for Kalashnikov rifles. It turned out that the receiver was actually for the full-auto (machine gun) variation of the gun, which was illegal. None of the people who had bought the receivers got in any legal trouble - but they did have to turn the receivers in to the authorities. So.... People here suggesting customers could be arrested for buying unverified illegally imported tarantulas from an apparently legitimate dealer don't know what they are talking about.

---------- Post added at 06:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:26 AM ----------

As I said and commented with other people here, anybody can show you the propper paperwork,permits and plain tickets and that doesnt proof ANYTHING.

Again correct. Many years ago I worked in a pet shop in the Los Angeles area. One of the things I learned there is that there was a good business in phony AKC registration papers for dogs. Breeders would register more puppies than were actually born in a litter, and sell the extra papers to people who in turn sold ordinary puppies with AKC paperwork. Pretty much the same thing can happen with import permits. Get all your paperwork in line for one shipment, and use it to cover several shipments.

That doesn't excuse those who get caught doing something illegal - but it does suggest that there may be a lot more illegal importing than we realize.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

There not much room for improvement, unfortunately, since money is everything that matters to people.
People wont pay for the $50-75 that costs shipping something via Fedex-without a bussines account-.

When E- Spiderworld was around I use to get my tarantulas delta dash, do you know how much that cost at that time? I cared more about the safety for the big females I use to order from John. So my point to this is I didn't care how much money I spend cause money comes and go. I may not have money today but I will have it eventually.
Fran, if money is an issue to you, you should find a new hobby that is cheaper!
All of us on the Arachnoboards are always looking for someone that is legit buyer wether is hobbiest or a dealer, so therefor why is it so hard to name a dealer that is not legit on the boards than a hobbiest? What's the difference between the two?


Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates

 

[Cuddly Cobalt]

I appreciate your response to this thread, and I hope you pull through this event, because I am willing to give you a second chance.

Stay on the straight and narrow path, Paul.

he was given a second chance already in 2009

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

2nd chance? Are you kidding? Not just in 2009 was their a second chance. Let's go back to 2004.


Read these haunting and forboding words by Holly:

he may have had good prices....but he didn't give a rats patoot about anything else. speaking as someone else that got screwed by him.... I have to say.. I'm GLAD that he is not in business anymore...and I dread the day he makes a 'comeback' .... ugh..
people with no scruples don't belong in a hobby this small!

(Reference: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=20687&highlight=petcenter)

 

[Armstrong5]

All I know is that Paul is a Great dealer. I have recieved many T's from Paul and he always replys quickly. Heck you can even call him on the phone and talk to him. Dont see many of you other haters doing that. As long as he is selling T's I will continue to buy from him its not up to me to decide if he broke the law. All I'm saying is that if his T's are cheapest thats where I'm going to buy from plain and simple!

 

[Fran]

Fran, if money is an issue to you, you should find a new hobby that is cheaper!


Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates

I wonder if you can understand the English language , or if indeed your problem resides on a deeper level.

You simply read what you want, twist it, and then answer something extremely stupid that has nothing to do with what was originaly said.

That doesn't excuse those who get caught doing something illegal - but it does suggest that there may be a lot more illegal importing than we realize.

Exactly

 

[Kirk]

That doesn't excuse those who get caught doing something illegal - but it does suggest that there may be a lot more illegal importing than we realize.

Exactly

The Koppler/Becker instance certainly does not stand to suggest anything beyond the actions of those two individuals. I fail to see why some have this need to go beyond the issue at hand and make unfounded, oblique or otherwise, slights against other dealers. If you can provide no evidence of illegal activity, then leave your rumor mongering at your neighborhood playground or dinning room.

 

[Fran]

The Koppler/Becker instance certainly does not stand to suggest anything beyond the actions of those two individuals. I fail to see why some have this need to go beyond the issue at hand and make unfounded, oblique or otherwise, slights against other dealers. If you can provide no evidence of illegal activity, then leave your rumor mongering at your neighborhood playground or dinning room.

Kirk, suggest then to close the thread. You just want to repeat over and over what has been said 15 pages ago, and when we give our opinion (founded opinion after dealing with dealers and people in the hobby for years) about the hypocresy that exist between the dealers, you have a personal problem with it.

Lets close the thread then. Nothing else is gonna be learn. Nothing else will be usefull if we keep repeating over and over how bad Paul Becker is and how legit the rest are.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

All I know is that Paul is a Great dealer. I have recieved many T's from Paul and he always replys quickly. Heck you can even call him on the phone and talk to him. Dont see many of you other haters doing that. As long as he is selling T's I will continue to buy from him its not up to me to decide if he broke the law. All I'm saying is that if his T's are cheapest thats where I'm going to buy from plain and simple!

Take a look at my last post that I made when I was selling a pair of P.metallica you can clearly see my PHONE NUMBER is on there! I be more than happy to answer to you or anyone that has any question about tarantulas? So please dont include me with your rudeness.


Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates

 

[Chripin]

He gets a second chance with me. It is nice of you to bring up dirt from 04, but I won't hold that against him. Some will bad mouth him till end of time, some will forgive.

 

[Kirk]

Kirk, suggest then to close the thread. You just want to repeat over and over what has been said 15 pages ago, and when we give our opinion (founded opinion after dealing with dealers and people in the hobby for years) about the hypocresy that exist between the dealers, you have a personal problem with it.

Lets close the thread then. Nothing else is gonna be learn. Nothing else will be usefull if we keep repeating over and over how bad Paul Becker is and how legit the rest are.

I apologize for repeating myself, Fran, but I'm only responding to what I see as an undercurrent of implying that other dealers are just as culpable when no one actually provides any evidence to back up what they suggest. I've read nothing to indicate hypocrisy among dealers.