US Dealer Involved in Smuggling revealed in court documents

[xhexdx]

I don't think shipping tarantulas illegally is comparable to breaking into someone's house/facility and stealing their property.

I don't think that was the argument...

 

[patrick86]

Help us Lord. Thanks Joe.

My point was if the tarantula buying public all had the same attitude that the quoted person does then what's the point of any of us following laws? Just get the cheapest tarantula out there no matter what the means.

 

[spiderpets]

I don't think that was the argument...

But should be when you take the harm of his crimes, messured as loss under the fraud table...
Under federal law smuggling is even worse than theft!

 

[pocock1899]

But should be when you take the harm of his crimes, messured as loss under the fraud table...
Under federal law smuggling is even worse than theft!

It depends on which laws you are looking at. Most wildlife laws, like CITES violations, are misdemeanors.

But, like others, I don't think the legal aspect is the main thing most people are dealing with.

I think the fact that many folks know the parties involved makes this much more personal, for some folks, this seems like a betrayal of the hobby. Especially considering previous posts of denial and finger pointing.

 

[spiderpets]

It depends on which laws you are looking at. Most wildlife laws, like CITES violations, are misdemeanors.

That's right, they are mostly just administrative offenses. But we are talking about smuggling charges here, not about Lacey Act, right?
This case never was about CITES, but the storry about "endangered spiders" sold good in public of course...

 

[RoseT]

All this and I still dont see a reason why not to order from him. :?


This thread was created for those vendors who were obviously hurting because of pauls business, nothing else.

 

[patrick86]

All this and I still dont see a reason why not to order from him. :?


This thread was created for those vendors who were obviously hurting because of pauls business, nothing else.

Do much trolling?

 

[JC50]

All this and I still dont see a reason why not to order from him. :?


This thread was created for those vendors who were obviously hurting because of pauls business, nothing else.

In other words.It doesn`t matter how or where he obtained the Tarantulas as long as his price is good?

 

[Carrot]

Help us Lord. Thanks Joe.

My point was if the tarantula buying public all had the same attitude that the quoted person does then what's the point of any of us following laws? Just get the cheapest tarantula out there no matter what the means.

A lot of the tarantula buying public already does have that mentality of the person you quoted.

I'm sure many people here buy from sellers who use USPS due to the cheaper shipping rates, even though shipping via USPS in an unmarked box is illegal. They don't care that they're violating a federal law and I'm sure they don't find the seller unethical for violating it either (nor do I). I'd guess the guy you quoted doesn't care if Paul imported his tarantulas illegally because he personally doesn't find it unethical.

Sure, the punishment for being caught isn't as harsh as what Sven/Paul received, nor are you as likely to be caught, but it is still illegal.

I guess I just don't understand why its okay to break some laws, but not others when it comes to shipping tarantulas. Seems like it's permissible in the hobby as long as you don't generate a news story and/or snitch on your supplier/customers if caught. =p

 

[spiderpets]

Sure, the punishment for being caught isn't as harsh as what Sven/Paul received, nor are you as likely to be caught, but it is still illegal.

I still do not get what punishment this unindicted crime offender got compared to the person who spends his time in prison now? A foreigner he lured into the country just to safe his nuts! This could be a good reason for not buying from him, just an idea...

 

[sinflspeed]

Granted shipping USPS is illegal, but shipping USPS does not change the price of the T. If the T is 20, shipping via USPS doesn't make it 15.00. What people loose sight of is that PB used an illegal means to make his stock cheaper for him and still charge a market price so he could pocket more money. I personally do not cast judgement on him. It was his choice, he has to live with the consequences. If his choice cast a negative light on a hobby that I enjoy, than I will do everything I can to shine a favorable light when presented with an opportunity to do so. Would I risk my hobby(yes it's my hobby)for personal gain? No, I have way more import things going on. If you don't agree with my prices I am okay with that, but I do my best to be fair. I play on a level field and hope that everyone else does the same.

 

[Carrot]

Well, he did say he was still waiting to hear what his sentence is, so I'd assume he's going to be punished in some way. If not, then disregard what I said.

 

[PhobeToPhile]

If I may point something out to the people trying to raise comparisons with USPS/UPS shipping? The import/export laws that Paul knowingly broke were designed to protect endangered species. Now, with all the talk I am not 100% whether the Ts in this specific case were captive bred (I kind of lost track). However, whether they were or no is, in fact, entirely irrelevant considering that the purpose of these laws is protect the species from over exploitation. Are the laws expensive and cumbersome? Not going to deny it. But to be honest, "expensive and cumbersome" is better than "no access at all". Said "no access at all" refers, of course, to the species in question becoming extinct, which is what the goal of these laws is to prevent.

Granted, in many cases human action other than collecting is more of a risk to the continued existence of these animals than collecting is (read: habitat destruction). Granted, in some cases these laws may harm rather than help. That being said, it's pretty much all we have. Even if it makes it a pain in the ass sometimes when trying to transport captive bred specimens. So, quite frankly, what I am trying to say about this is simply: shut up and compare the two. Yes, both are illegal. However, violating one is much worse than the other. Worry about the important one for now; we can work on getting the rules changed so tarantulas can be legally shipped via USPS later. Actually, isn't Ken doing that right about now with that petition? Hmm...

USPS shipping and breaking international law designed to protect endagered species are apples and oranges. You can compare them, but only in the sense that one is worse than the other. And, for one, it is actually possible to make one of those legal.

 

[spiderpets]

Well, he did say he was still waiting to hear what his sentence is, so I'd assume he's going to be punished in some way. If not, then disregard what I said.

People have a right to know, mostly all the unbelievers...

 

[RoseT]

In other words.It doesn`t matter how or where he obtained the Tarantulas as long as his price is good?

Im not saying what he did is right, and hopefully this ties as an example for Paul, and those other following footsteps and what not. Im just saying if the man is still up and running, I'm assuming legally now with what happened and all...Im gonna keep buying from him, his prices are untouchable, and his services are absolute. I just find it funny how most the people on here bashing him OVER AND OVER are people that vendor (competitors). You've all said your piece, we've read the documents...why keep going?.

 

[wesker12]

well if you read the documents his email account was "hijacked" by the fbi, they impersonated him and special agent morrison sent sven multiple emails luring him here and tried to persuade him to bring some ts on him. Did paul have any say in this? I doubt that the fbi told him their plan. If you look closely its not really snitching to save his ass so to speak.

 

[pocock1899]

well if you read the documents his email account was "hijacked" by the fbi, they impersonated him and special agent morrison sent sven multiple emails luring him here and tried to persuade him to bring some ts on him. Did paul have any say in this? I doubt that the fbi told him their plan. If you look closely its not really snitching to save his ass so to speak.

Actually, if you'd read the documents, you'd know it wasn't the FBI.

...and you'd have read the name of the Special Agent.

...and you'd see that he did participate in helping Sven to a six month stay at the Iron Bar Hotel.

 

[Bill S]

If I may point something out to the people trying to raise comparisons with USPS/UPS shipping? The import/export laws that Paul knowingly broke were designed to protect endangered species. Now, with all the talk I am not 100% whether the Ts in this specific case were captive bred (I kind of lost track). However, whether they were or no is, in fact, entirely irrelevant ...

Actually, it is not irrelevant. Sven was convicted of failing to get proper paperwork and pay required fees. This is not really aimed at protecting endangered species. The Lacey Act does that, and Sven was not charged with violation of that. Interestingly though, the volunteer self-appointed "expert witness" tried to implicate Sven in violations of the Lacey Act, stating that in his opinion the tarantulas were wild caught. I'm curious why this more serious charge was not followed up on - perhaps the prosecutors expected it would be challenged and beaten, thus degrading their case. ("Endangered Species" was still a relevant issue in the case, but only inasmuch as it required permits and fees. No wild populations were protected in the handling of this case.) The issues being raised regarding Paul suggest that he may have been importing wild caught specimens, which does impact wild populations. But no clear charges against him have been presented here, so we're left with a lot of speculations.

 

[paulatpetshop]

1)Shipping Tarantulas illegally through the USPS is a practice that many of us have done..It is a Federal offence…What I did was failed to declare them when they were being shipped to me from another country... This was done in 2008 and everything I brought in was confiscated and is long gone..It clearly was not worth the risk.. What I did was wrong . Since then all my imports are legal with proper documentation. My prices are low because I order in large quantities(over 1000 pieces typically) and I am a single man operation with only one part time helper. I answer all my own e-mails, do my own cleaning and feeding, packing and shipping. This allows me to take better care of the spiders and better care of the customers on a personal level. This also allows for a better price to the customer . I don’t think any customer would rather pay a higher price . I can make a reasonable margin and still keep the prices low..
2) The CITES Laws are there to protect the animals of the world that are being poached for big profits.. such as Rhino horn and Ivory tusk..all the way down to tarantulas ,fish, reptiles, plants and even corals…. Everything I brought in was Captive Bred. Not wild caught. I want to be clear.. I am remorseful about what I did and will face punishment.. I worked with the Fish and Wildlife service because I learned my lesson and wanted to contribute in a positive way .I had a choice ,If I did not cooperate, then the problem of illegal importation would still be a major problem and I would be in jail… I wanted to help the situation , not contribute to making it worse..I learned a lot.. I think that this lesson was an expensive one because of the fines and hardship I have endured over the past year and a half. I deserved it and will definitely not do it again.. This situation also brings to light how big the problem is within the hobby and will surely curtail illegal activity for a long time in the future. There will always be people trying to exploit animals for profit by collecting them in the wild. This is not right and people who buy them are unethical.. On the other side of the coin there at some point needs to be new blood for breeding purposes.. Experts should make the decision to take from the wild for those animals. Not civilians. Private captive breeding of threatened tarantulas and selling to hobbyists is a good idea because it helps keep them from becoming extinct(as long as they were captive bred themselves).
3) Many of the animals seen in the pet industry today were once brought here because of illegal importation ..Parakeets, cockatiels ,cockatoos ,Bearded Dragons for example are all illegal for export from Australia.. so how did they get here..? Hmmm..? I mention this ,not to try to justify anything, just to inform.
4)The Fish and Wildlife Service is here to protect all animals from extinction because of taking from the wild and to enforce laws designed to protect threatened species...…I wish for everyone to learn from this so this hobby can move forward .. and hopefully in the long run, will be better than ever.
5) Please feel free to e-mail me any questions.. I will answer them as best I can..
Thanks,
Paul Becker

 

[Redneck]

Paul, I am curious... If you had not cooperated with the FEDs (Or whoever), what would you have gotten as punishment? Like, what kind of time were you looking at getting?

I know you said earlier in the thread that you are still waiting to hear what kind of punishment you are going to get. Have you heard what your getting?

As I said, Im just curious...