Five Poecilotheria species - Endangered status and limitations

[MintyWood826]

Trying to interpret laws is messing with my brain. There's this one, but now I have to figure out my state's.

 

[MetalMan2004]

This is without a doubt one of the most depressing things I’ve seen in a while. The more I think about it though, I think the hobby will adapt to the rules after a bit of time. Breeding loans will obviously become much more popular and obtaining them will be a bit more difficult, but I don’t think they’ll dissapear from the hobby altogether (as long as they don’t write even more strict rules...).

I’m kind of bummed specifically for the smithi. I always liked them, partly because they were less popular. You don’t see them for sale too often so I’d guess these would be the first to go. I bought a female smithi over a year ago and its now turned out to be a subfusca mutt as its grown. I may never get my hands on a true female smithi now.

 

[SonsofArachne]

Dumbest thing said in this article was, “We’re thrilled that these beautiful spiders, imperiled by human greed, now have additional protections to help them survive,”. Even if they're protected, it won't be fully enforced. The location of the pokies is on Sri lanka, not the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Basically speaking, if Sri lanka wanted to destroy more acres of land of the pokies. The US can enforce them and tell them to stop. But if Sri lanka claims something stupid like, "it's for the government" or "here is our papers from the Sri lanka government". Then they can destroy the land and ignore the the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service like they're a joke.

Yes, If they really wanted to protect them they should be trying get India and Sri Lanka to protect their HABITAT, not worrying about getting them the "paper" protection of ESA. This is why the only environmental group I give money to any more is the Nature Conservancy, who actually work on protecting habitats.

 

[Stella Maris]

So what happens if you plan on moving to a different state and you plan on bringing your animals with you-of which you happen to own one or several of those 5 species-does this mean transportating your animals with you will be illegal?

If you bought one of the 5 Pokie species from a local expo in the same state you live in, but the police/authorities/whatever don't believe you and think you're trying to "smuggle" the animal across state lines?

Then what if "the law" can't differentiate between those 5 species and other Pokie species, then ALL Pokie species become suspect?

 

[Greasylake]

So what happens if you plan on moving to a different state and you plan on bringing your animals with you-of which you happen to own one or several of those 5 species-does this mean transportating your animals with you will be illegal?

There's no transaction going on with the spiders, so it's perfectly legal. As we've said before, they can cross state lines as long as no one is paying for it. If you move it's not even changing hands, there's no exchange or transaction whatsoever.

If you bought one of the 5 Pokie species from a local expo in the same state you live in, but the police/authorities/whatever don't believe you and think you're trying to "smuggle" the animal across state lines?

They can't do anything without probable cause. Shouldn't be very hard to prove you're a resident of that state anyway, just show a drivers license with your address on it.

 

[MintyWood826]

to a different state and you plan on bringing your animals with you-of which you happen to own one or several of those 5 species-does this mean transporting your animals with you will be illegal?

Transporting them throughout the country is legal, as long as they were legally acquired and aren't being sold.

Haha @Greasylake beat me

 

[Torech Ungol]

I'm not sure about the legal obstacles, and other obstacles (lack of profitability, integrity, etc.), but it would be neat to have a non-profit set up by well informed and experienced hobbyists and "professionals" for the purpose of conserving, educating, sharing or "adopting" (not selling) captive bred specimens of endangered Poecilotheria (and maybe a separate one for Brazilian endemics).

The group could receive donations (not for the adopted spiders!) that are in return, used for shipping expenses, donated to educational outreach, NGOs, or conservation groups within the USA, or Sri Lanka that help with the spider or land conservation.

There could be a (hopefully) simple approval process for "adoption", that involves agreeing to a certain set of rules and laws (both government and group). Breeders could list their stock to the group admins, and adopted spiders could be sent from the breeders.

You'll have to excuse my naivety. I realize, even if something like this was possible, there would have to be enough people to care about the species, and hobby, more than profits.

That might actually be viable. I don't know the legal details of a 501 (c)3, but it seems to me that one should be able to set one up, and run a non-profit that gives these species away to qualified owners. It would require an in-depth look at the laws for a 501 (c)3 to know for sure, but that definitely seems feasible.

 

[SonsofArachne]

Reading this thread and this thread - http://arachnoboards.com/threads/potential-hobby-setbacks.309327 - I think there is some confusion between the T. seladonia issue and Sri Lanka poecilotheria issue. From what I understand this is basically the difference:

The T. seladonia situation is a Lacey act violation - banning importation and interstate sales, but not in state sales or ownership of these spiders.

The Sri Lanka poecilotheria situation involves the Endangered Species Act - banning all sales of these species but not ownership or transference (for free) of these species.

If I left anything important out, or made any mistakes, please feel free to correct.
I posted this in both threads

 

[JAFUENTES]

Why not use a t species that act's as an equivalent monetary wise. A swap if you may but not at the same time so it's not a trade by presence. (Just a theory only)

 

[sschind]

So, I just need to start up a Youtube channel and label it "Educational" right? Right!?!?!

It apparently works with baby turtles. All I can say is there are a lot of 5 year old educators and scientists out there judging by all the little kids I see walking around the swaps with baby turtles.

Including one of the listed species a "freebie" (along with a purchase) to promote one's business or entice sales would probably still be considered "in the course of commercial activity" for the purposes of the Act..

I agree. People tried that with baby turtles and it didn't fly. Buy this setup and get a free turtle.

 

[lostbrane]

The Sri Lanka poecilotheria situation involves the Endangered Species Act - banning all sales of these species but not ownership or transference (for free) of these species.

Intrastate sale is allowed. See this summary: https://www.fws.gov/endangered/esa-library/pdf/USFWS-5-Sri-Lankan-Poecilotheria-Q-As-final.pdf
Or check out this screenshot:

 

[SonsofArachne]

Intrastate sale is allowed. See this summary: https://www.fws.gov/endangered/esa-library/pdf/USFWS-5-Sri-Lankan-Poecilotheria-Q-As-final.pdf
Or check out this screenshot: View attachment 283034

Okay, so you can sell Sri Lankan pokies within your state. While that's better than no sales at all it will still severally restrict sales (and the breeding that goes with commercial sales). And, as a buyer, if you can't find these species in your state you're out of luck.

 

[Lamia]

So my earlier post might not have completely off -
"I wonder if it's legal to give them away. And if you just happen to have a Gofundme page for donations...."

I mean as long as you didn't ask for money directly for spiders, instead asked for money to help with "overhead" (and don't tell me to go try it - I'm not a breeder)

I was thinking more on the lines of free sling, but shipping is 10X the amount it normal is???

 

[John Apple]

From what I can tell, owning them is perfectly legal. It's selling across state lines that is the issue. So if you've got stock to sell... sell it before August 30th (that's when the laws go into effect).

selling across state lines....?....I'll just sell at local shows

 

[Aleetist]

selling across state lines....?....I'll just sell at local shows

I am hoping there will be enough demand for them that I hopefully can still get them at local-ish trade shows. The shows around me seem to be a bit scant and I will probably have to end up driving out of state at some point where there might be a better market and better chance.

 

[viper69]

From what I can tell, owning them is perfectly legal. It's selling across state lines that is the issue. So if you've got stock to sell... sell it before August 30th (that's when the laws go into effect).

I read the document. You cannot sell those species across state lines. However, it is not illegal to own these species listed. Nor is it illegal to transport these species across state lines PROVIDED transport is not for purposes of sales. So if you are moving from Montana to Maine, you are fine.

Just a matter of time before the rest of this genus is added.

sell plants legally because there can be proof that they are not wild collected plants.

How is this done?

 

[Torech Ungol]

I am hoping there will be enough demand for them that I hopefully can still get them at local-ish trade shows. The shows around me seem to be a bit scant and I will probably have to end up driving out of state at some point where there might be a better market and better chance.

You won't really be able to do that, unfortunately. Both buyer and seller must reside in the same state for a sale to take place, so no driving to out-of-state shows to pick any up.

 

[MikeyD]

How is this done?

The grower/exporter of the plant has to be able to fulfill the requirements of CITIES. This is required with all orchid species and Nepenthes species to ship them across boarders. With species that are strictly controlled it requires authorization of plant material that can be used for propagation, in most cases of the above plants that means both seed raised and tissue culture production.
One of the most high profile occurrences in the Orchid world happened in the early 2000s when a new species of South American slipper orchid was discovered and illegally transported to the United States. The country of origin in this case was Peru and they were not impressed by the actions of the botanists who smuggled the new species out of the country. It ended up that the species was ravaged by collectors who sought a quick buck and the wild population put into severe danger of extinction in habitat.
And this is the problem that always seems to occur when a species is described to science, it's location published, and it's of any commercial value. The wild populations are pillaged, the habitat damaged, and the future of the species in cultivation/captivity is also scrutinized.
In the genus Nepenthes it is N clipeata that has seen a similar fate yet the species is now produced via tissue culture and distributed legally by growers such as Borneo Exotics and Wistuba. In habitat the plants are still highly endangered and probably only the most inaccessible plants are still left on the summit of Mt Kelam in Kalimantan Borneo. There is thought to be little more than a dozen plants left in habitat and still evidence of poaching within recent months/years.

I am not sure exactly what framework exists as far as receiving CITIES certification but those questions could be asked directly of that organization. It also depends on the country of origin and if they allow export of flora and fauna, many do not. Many of these Orchid and Nepenthes species are highly controlled yet they are still available on the market as fully legal plants so it is possible to produce and market them if the rules of CITIES are followed. Perhaps tissue culture has been the saving grace with plant production and the Tarantula hobby has no parallel, but because these species already exist in captivity there could still be a way to breed and distribute them. Maybe similar to how Mexico is producing Brachypelma sp and exporting them along with CITIES certificates that accompany the T which can be kept by the customer as proof of provenance.

http://carnivorousockhom.blogspot.com/2014/02/phragmipedium-kovachii-beauty-and.html

https://pollenatrix.com/2003/12/29/phrag_kovachii_-4/

 

[viper69]

The grower/exporter of the plant has to be able to fulfill the requirements of CITIES. This is required with all orchid species and Nepenthes species to ship them across boarders. With species that are strictly controlled it requires authorization of plant material that can be used for propagation, in most cases of the above plants that means both seed raised and tissue culture production.
One of the most high profile occurrences in the Orchid world happened in the early 2000s when a new species of South American slipper orchid was discovered and illegally transported to the United States. The country of origin in this case was Peru and they were not impressed by the actions of the botanists who smuggled the new species out of the country. It ended up that the species was ravaged by collectors who sought a quick buck and the wild population put into severe danger of extinction in habitat.
And this is the problem that always seems to occur when a species is described to science, it's location published, and it's of any commercial value. The wild populations are pillaged, the habitat damaged, and the future of the species in cultivation/captivity is also scrutinized.
In the genus Nepenthes it is N clipeata that has seen a similar fate yet the species is now produced via tissue culture and distributed legally by growers such as Borneo Exotics and Wistuba. In habitat the plants are still highly endangered and probably only the most inaccessible plants are still left on the summit of Mt Kelam in Kalimantan Borneo. There is thought to be little more than a dozen plants left in habitat and still evidence of poaching within recent months/years.

I am not sure exactly what framework exists as far as receiving CITIES certification but those questions could be asked directly of that organization. It also depends on the country of origin and if they allow export of flora and fauna, many do not. Many of these Orchid and Nepenthes species are highly controlled yet they are still available on the market as fully legal plants so it is possible to produce and market them if the rules of CITIES are followed. Perhaps tissue culture has been the saving grace with plant production and the Tarantula hobby has no parallel, but because these species already exist in captivity there could still be a way to breed and distribute them. Maybe similar to how Mexico is producing Brachypelma sp and exporting them along with CITIES certificates that accompany the T which can be kept by the customer as proof of provenance.

http://carnivorousockhom.blogspot.com/2014/02/phragmipedium-kovachii-beauty-and.html

https://pollenatrix.com/2003/12/29/phrag_kovachii_-4/

Thank you very much for your time. I'm only barely aware of plants in terms of propogation. However, I am aware of danger plants are in due to poaching. I read article in NYTimes I THINK, around this time about the poaching of orchids. All of these prized orchids sought after due to how rare they are, or pretty etc.

I LOVE pitcher plants!!!

 

[MikeyD]

The difficult part about CITIES is that it only controls trade in flora and fauna species and how they cross boarders. It's less than perfect because as we have seen happen countless times, the flora/fauna can still be ruthlessly exploited by people within the country of origin and many are traded and sold within the country or neighbouring ones where they can easily smuggle across the boarder. Many a rare plant is plucked from the wild only to die before it ever reaches a collector or dies in the hands of someone who doesn't have the skill to keep it alive. Orchids are very commonly seen for sale in roadside markets in Asia and other tropical countries and many have been made extremely rare and often only seen in the most inaccessible habitats.
The same problem happens with fauna, and people often have to cause more damage to get specimens. Burrows excavated, trees cut down, adults killed to take their young. I think this is why so many countries forbid export of their wildlife, it's the only way to prevent people from pillaging nature to make a living. Still it can be done responsibly and countries like Thailand have beetle, butterfly, tropical fish, orchid/plant production operations that ship their products all over the world. Indonesia does the same with reptile farming. I am sure they are not perfect but they have done a good job of working within the laws to create employment within their countries and legally export around the world.
So many people get upset and they think that we need rare species in captive culture as a way to preserve them but they are not understanding the bigger picture. We will not necessarily save species that way. Our hobby produced plants and animals will not end up back in a habitat that has been destroyed and we will not come out as heroes for breeding them in captivity. What is really important is conservation of the habitats themselves and if that fails then captive reproduction is the next step. There is a really cool thing that has happened in fish keeping circles with the creation of the CARES program where keepers dedicate themselves to breeding and sustaining endangered species, especially the livebearing fish of Central America. Some of these fish are now thought to be extinct in the wild as the only known locations/populations have been destroyed. In the USA there are rare pupfish such as the Devils Hole Pupfish and a few other populations of pupfish. There was at least one population that was saved from extinction by some dedicated scientists who saved the fish from a drought that had dried up their only habitat. So there are stories of success, and organizations and hobbyists who have already laid the framework for these types of conservation programs and if people are dedicated the same thing could happen in the Tarantula hobby. Maybe organizations such as CARES would be the ideal places to ask questions to better understand how they have accomplished what they have. How they have made hobbyists into a network of dedicated breeders who help sustain species that are otherwise extremely rare and listed by CITES. I think that instead of hobbyists getting upset they should get informed and learn how these challenges have been dealt with in the past. The recent news about both Typhochlaena and the two Poecilotheria species doesn't mean it's the end of the road, it just means that things will have to be done differently than they have been in the past, and thats not a bad thing for those species. We need to stop thinking that it's our right to own these species and understand that it's a privilege. It might take a little while to iron out the wrinkles but it's all been done before, it just takes time.

https://caresforfish.org