Five Poecilotheria species - Endangered status and limitations

[Greasylake]

Lately only good news for U.S keepers, eh

Maybe I will be able to make use of my swedish citizenship now.

 

[Tenevanica]

This only affects interstate trade though...

So, correct me if I’m wrong, you could got to a reptile show or pet store or something like that and still acquire these species legally?

Either way, I promise you that rules will be broken. The sale of all Phasmida is illegal in the United States under all circumstances... but you can get your hands on Extatosoma tiaratum and Phyllium phillipinicum fairly easily. It’ll become the same way with these species. They’ll get sold across state lines, and as long as everyone keeps quiet no one will get caught.

Just sad that we’ll have to resort to illegal measures to keep a species alive... seems counter-intuitive.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Maybe I will be able to make use of my swedish citizenship now.

Mark my words (this is like an older 'bro' advice) remain in the 'Lone Star State', my man

 

[MintyWood826]

Just sad that we’ll have to resort to illegal measures to keep a species alive... seems counter-intuitive.

Yes it does. That's why I wanted to know the thought process behind this (although I wonder if there was any).

So, correct me if I’m wrong, you could got to a reptile show or pet store or something like that and still acquire these species legally

Within your state you could. But would it be legal to go to another state, buy there, and come back? (Since I don't know of any breeders in Minnesota)

 

[ErinM31]

Typical stupid government overreaction - harming the species they supposedly want to help.

Yep, our government takes the cake for stupidity; they excel at creating laws that have the opposite of their stated intended effect.

Nope, in fact, if wild conditions don't improve with respect to the species, and it won't, extinction is the inevitable result....stopping captive breeding all but guarantees this will occur one day.

I feel bad for anyone with a gravid female of these species, by the time they hatch out, they won't be able to be sold...what's the alternative...freezing the sac or raising an entre sac...no one wants to, or will raise entire sacs. The captive breeding game on these 5 species just ended.

Hopefully they will continue to be bred and traded within states? I hope that there breeders of these species in Texas! I thought I was at T capacity for my one-room apartment, but this may necessitate reconsidering... Throw out the wardrobe, I need to obtain these T’s while I still can! I am fortunate that my husband is very supportive of my hobby and enjoys our invertebrates as well, but this may test the limits!

 

[Greasylake]

Are there breeders of these species in Texas?

Like I said before, I know of one breeder in Texas who has bred pokies a fair amount of times before. I loaned them my MM P. miranda as well.

 

[ErinM31]

Like I said before, I know of one breeder in Texas who has bred pokies a fair amount of times before. I loaned them my MM P. miranda as well.

Ah, sorry, I skimmed but did not read every post in this thread!

Still quite upset about this latest governmental stupidity.

 

[Tenevanica]

Within your state you could. But would it be legal to go to another state, buy there, and come back? (Since I don't know of any breeders in Minnesota)

There aren’t border patrols or checkpoints between states or anything of course, so you could pretty easily get one and drive back home with it without problem even if it was technically illegal... just stay *hush hush* about it.

Not that I’m advocating breaking the law (there’s the disclaimer), but it wouldn’t be hard to do...

 

[Chris LXXIX]

There aren’t border patrols or checkpoints between states or anything of course, so you could pretty easily get one and drive back home with it without problem even if it was technically illegal... just stay *hush hush* about it.

Not that I’m advocating breaking the law (there’s the disclaimer), but it wouldn’t be hard to do...

Quite frankly, I think that this is what will happens sooner or later, one way or another, let alone ordering from Europe.

Here in the review section there's the page, always updated, of a European based breeder that, lol, seems that works more with Americans (U.S, notably) than other Europeans, according to the locations of those silly enough that even leaved a review

 

[Aleetist]

Found out about this last night as I was drifting off. It really saddens me as a new person to the hobby who had a goal of getting to Pokie's. There are several animals that only exist now due to hobbyists basically saving them as their natural environment was destroyed. This ban will only further hurt the species listed as many have stated, both with domestic CB population and the wild. Also, the whole inbreeding aspect with inverts is pretty bunk as I cannot find ANY information to suggest they suffer from it until very deep into the generations if at all.

Even though the studies show it is very rare for a wild individual to be sold in the US the people who submitted this still thought it was a good idea to go ahead and do so, lets not let them get off the hook either, blow up their inbox and social media too! Or heck, if you live near them in New Mexico, maybe pay a visit. Help them to understand how this actually hurts the species and doesn't help it at all.

https://wildearthguardians.org/about-us/contact-us/
516 Alto Street, Santa Fe, NM, 87501
Wildlife Issues
Bethany Cotton, Wildlife Program Director
503.327.4923
bcotton@wildearthguardians.org
https://www.facebook.com/WildEarthGuardians
https://twitter.com/wildearthguard
https://www.instagram.com/wildearthguardians

P.S. how soon is too soon for a Pokie? lol

 

[lostbrane]

Did some digging.

Per Section 3 of the ESA this is the definition of ‘commerical activity’ (Source: https://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/esa.pdf): “(2) The term ‘‘commercial activity’’ means all activities of in- dustry and trade, including, but not limited to, the buying or sell- ing of commodities and activities conducted for the purpose of fa- cilitating such buying and selling: Provided, however, That it does not include exhibitions of commodities by museums or similar cul- tural or historical organizations.”

Industry/trade is further defined in Section 17.3 (Note: I am not sure of the accuracy of this source but it seems to be consistent with the rest of the ESA) (Source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/50/17.3): “Industry or trade in the definition of “commercial activity” in the Act means the actual or intended transfer of wildlife or plants from one person to another person in the pursuit of gain or profit.”

So, to me this seems that if they can prove that the transport/transferrence of said species was known by the involved parties to eventually be a sale, even if was under a guise, there would be issues. That being said, I am no expert and my interpretation could very well be incorrect.

 

[Theneil]

in pursuit of gain or profit sounds like even a breeding loan would be off limits then because it is in order to gain possession of of slings even if not for sale.

Personally i expect that most people will just ignore the law (they already ship through usps anyway...) and only the 'bigger' folks that do a lot of the legal importing, everything by the books and whatnot (you know, the folks that actually use only fedex) will follow the law. I would predict that the 5 listed pokies (if not all of them) will likely see a little price hike in the future though until 'the hobby' adjusts accordingly.

 

[MetalMan2004]

Yeah that word “gain” makes the interpratation hard. Are they talkig about monetary gain only, or are trades or getting slings back “gain?”

 

[cold blood]

Found out about this last night as I was drifting off. It really saddens me as a new person to the hobby who had a goal of getting to Pokie's

Your dreams are still alive, not all species were included in this. You will still be able to get a pokie one day.


Which begs the question, are the people enforcing these laws educated on differentiating between the legal and non legal species. I mean, would the average fish and game person know if its a fasciata or a regalis? Especially as slings this can be difficult, if not impossble at 2i...and I doubt they would know even with more obvious adults to be frank.

So does this mean we will now have to provide some sort of proof to breed and sell say, regalis slings in the future, so they can be differentiated from the others included in this legislation? Or will we just run the risk of a random official assuming my regals slings are one of these other species...what a headache that could amount to.

 

[pocock1899]

There are several animals that only exist now due to hobbyists basically saving them as their natural environment was destroyed.

I'm curious what species you are referring to.

 

[ErinM31]

I'm curious what species you are referring to.

The cockroach Simandoa conserfarium is one that I know of off the top of my head.

 

[pocock1899]

Your dreams are still alive, not all species were included in this. You will still be able to get a pokie one day.


Which begs the question, are the people enforcing these laws educated on differentiating between the legal and non legal species. I mean, would the average fish and game person know if its a fasciata or a regalis? Especially as slings this can be difficult, if not impossble at 2i...and I doubt they would know even with more obvious adults to be frank.

So does this mean we will now have to provide some sort of proof to breed and sell say, regalis slings in the future, so they can be differentiated from the others included in this legislation? Or will we just run the risk of a random official assuming my regals slings are one of these other species...what a headache that could amount to.

One point to remember, is that the rules in this arena are different from a court of law. They don't have to believe you. They don't even have to know what it is. They can require you to prove what species you are saying it is, ...at your cost. Otherwise they can seize it, destroy it or send it back.

You can expect that there will be instances, especially for some of the larger importers (with "less than spotless records"), that some of the animals will end up having their legs removed for DNA analysis at the USFWS Forensics Lab. While that happens, the shipment might be seized, or they may let it go through. If they seize it, and you were wrong, you'll have to pay for the upkeep of the spiders whereever they are sent. Even if it's delivered, the law states that clearance or delivery does not make it legal. If they later find out that you lied on the Declaration, they CAN come to your house and take the animals. They have done it before

Something else I would add is that making false statements to a Federal Officer is a Felony (this includes something as innocuous as saying "I'm not guilty") and people frequently spend years in Federal Prison for this. It's a far more serious crime that bringin in P. fasciata.
Likewise, labeling as something else is considered smuggling. Again, this is far more serious than an ESA violation.

We are past the time when brown boxing was ignored or a slap on the wrist. We are now into the area of law that puts people in prison for years, or costs them tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills. You can ruin your life and the life of your family. Ask some of the people who have gotten caught smuggling endangered reptiles or tigers or rhino horn. This is where we are now.

 

[Liquifin]

So acquiring these 5 pokies is going to be almost impossible now???? Well..... there goes my dream of owning a P. ornata

 

[Aleetist]

I'm curious what species you are referring to.

Ambystoma mexicanum (Axolotl) was the first one I was thinking off.

There are some minnows as well and a few other species.

I know some fish are due to over fishing/pet trade but those are specifically because of habitat loss.

A few animals only exist because of zoos as well. (At work or I'd dig deeper)

 

[ErinM31]

So acquiring these 5 pokies is going to be almost impossible now???? Well..... there goes my dream of owning a P. ornata

Buy now.

Otherwise, hope you have a breeder in-state or consider moving...