The worlds most venomous spider? End-all-be-all-topic.

[Wade]

I didn't say it didn't break the skin at all, I said it didn't PENETRATE the skin, meaning it doesn't go all the way through. If there's a better way to put that medically, fill me in. I make this distiction beacuse many people think that a spider with small fangs can't bite, but depending on the type of venom, the fangs may only need to scratch the surface. Recluse spiders are small to begin with and have tiny chelicerae, yet when pressed into the can still deliver a "bite" (I'm not sure if a spider passively being pressed into a persons skin qualifies as a bite, but anyway). Many people who are bitten by recluses are unaware they were bitten at all, and are only become aware later when when symptoms develop. The fangs are so tiny that the person never even feels the inital bite. As you know, the skin isn't just a non living covering, its an organ with it's own blood vessels. Recluse venom only needs to get into the skin itself to have the negative effect, it doesn't have to get into the tissue beneath.

My main point was that the myth about the daddylonglegs being very venomous but with fangs too small to penetrate the skin is false on many levels. Harvestmen have no venom at all, and cellar spiders have never been studied in this way. Some cellar spiders are quite large, much larger than a recluse, and I seriously doubt they are less capable of delivering a bite than a recluse. If a recluse is capable of giving a medically signifcant bite, than surely a cellar spider would be able to as well if it actually had the potent venom.

Wade

 

[looseyfur]

I'd have to say I would agree with Wade on his feelings about Pholcus phalangioides... I just saved one from the shower fed it a fruit fly and sent it on its way. It was HUGE, and large enough for me with a mag glass to have a real good look at it. Theres no sence to the idea that wouldnt be able to penetrate your skin, and as far as its venom goes I thought it was mostly understood its potency was a myth.

boggle-
loosey

 

[mimic58]

Maybe that's how snakebites are treated in Sri Lanka? Doesn't mean it's working though

Anyone ever seen that bloke who got bit by a deadly viper in the midle of the jungle , You know the one i mean right?, the guy who hacked of his own arm with a machete!

 

[galeogirl]

Link to a site about Tegeneria species and Tegenarism (I hate that the word "poison" is in the url; accuracy, people, accuracy!):

http://hobospider.org/poison.html

No, I'm not claiming that they're the most dangerous, just an interesting related link.

 

[Spiderfoot]

Daddy Long Legs

There is an accual spider called Daddy Long Leggs not a harvestman. I dont know any thing about it but I have a book from the professor at A&M, College Station that has the Daddy Long Legs in it.

 

[Tony]

There is an accual spider called Daddy Long Leggs not a harvestman. I dont know any thing about it but I have a book from the professor at A&M, College Station that has the Daddy Long Legs in it.

They are pholicds, commonly referred to as daddy long legs, as least by some. Please reference post 21 of this thread
T

 

[mimic58]

Brown recluse bite

I found this picture on google ,this women was biten by a Brown recluse ,It kinda looks like it Hurts a bit........

 

[Tony]

Wow, Brazil is using US common names for a completely different family of spiders......

Still thats a nasty infection, though is the thinking now that those ulcers are caused by bacteria rather than venom?
T

 

[Spider-man 2]

Ummmm....yea.....the Brazilian wandering spider is NOT the Brown recluse.

This is the Loxosceles reclusa (Brown recluse)

This is the Phoneutria fera (Brazlian Wandering spider)

 

[mimic58]

Sorry i mis red it , It was indead the brown recluse not the wandering spider

 

[Spider-man 2]

Sorry i mis red it , It was indead the brown recluse not the wandering spider

It's cool, just trying to be informative.

 

[Crotalus]

This is the Phoneutria fera (Brazlian Wandering spider)

And how can you tell...

/Lelle

 

[Spider-man 2]

And how can you tell...

/Lelle

I can't really, but I trust the photo since it from a caresheet that had Rick West's name on it. I do know that a Brown Recluse and a Brazilian Wandering Spider are not the same spider...

 

[Shelob]

Hehe been a while sense I checked my thread, when I last looked it was on post 10 or so lol.

Thanks for all the replies guys, I just read all 7 pages and was interested the whole way through. Crotalus, your information was very helpful and informative, I would love to see pictures of your P. fera if you have any!

Another question though: on the Brown Widow Latrodectus geometricus does anyone have a link to a site showing those (however useless) LD50 tables or a link regarding their toxicity compared to mactans? Just curious because I would like to know if this 3-10 times the potentcy statement made earlier was correct. Thanks again all!

 

[wild4reps]

member posting..:most venomous

It is said that the Black Widow(Lactrodectus mactans) Some say the brown Recluse or the Katipo spider from countries, down under ie.Austr/NewZealand or the Brazilian Spider (phoneutria nigriventer a Brazilian wandering spider....gets confusing guess its the scientific perspective....

 

[Crotalus]

Maybe time to lock this thread?
I think the debate is finished here...

/Lelle

 

[Elizabeth]

Shelob, take a look at the Widow Misinformation? thread for a bit of discussion re: brown widows, toxicity, bite risk...


Link: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=39443

 

[Jeffh]

Venom strength

Acctually there are two species of funnel webs that are even more toxic then Atrax robustus;
Hadronyche infensa, and the one you mention - Hadronyche formidabilis.

However the closeness to human settlements as in the suburbs of Sydney perhaps make Atrax the more dangerous one of the top three.

Venom strength is one thing, but if the species never, or rarely, gets in contact with humans then it wont matter much. Compare it to the snake considered to possess the strongest venom of all snakes, Oxyuranus microlepitotus (think I got that right), which hasnt killed anyone (documented anyway).

/Lelle

I really don't which has the more potent venom between the Hadronyche infensa or the Brazilian Wandering spider.I do think the H. infensa is the deadliest funnel web spider.I would like to see proof, other than I was told by a doctor.Lets see the statement with test to back it up.I could be mistaken and always liked the funnel webs more but I've never seen in print(other than the posters here) that stated the H. infensa was the worlds most venomous spider.I do know the arachnid guru, Martin Nicholas vote goes to the Phoneutria. Here are a few statements he makes about the spiders venom and also compares the spider to the Syndey funnel web;

"Eagle River, Alaska: The Brazilian wandering spider is a beautiful looking spider, also quite toxic as I understand it. You said it was about 15-20 times more toxic than the black widow and Loxosceles reclusa, correct? Does the venom affect the central nervous system, or does it cause necrosis like the brown recluse?

Martin Nicholas: Phoneutria venom is a neurotoxin and goes for the central nervous system like black widow."

"Riverside, Calif.: Isn't the Australian funnel web spider more dangerous than the Brazilian wandering spider?

Martin Nicholas: No, Atrax, the Sydney funnel web male is is very dangerous but the venom toxicity is not as potent,it does not have the wide distribution and is not as active and aggressive. Still very nasty though."

"South Carolina: Firstly, I want to thank you for you TV show... I am thoroughly enjoying it... My question to you is..

you said the wandering spider is the deadliest... is that the deadliest in the world or just south America... is it's venom worse than that of the Sydney funnel web spider of Australia, also, is the trap door spider dangerous?

Thanking you,

Deb

Martin Nicholas: Wandering spider is more venomous, more widespread and faster and aggressive than the funnel web and therefore qualifies as "worlds most dangerous" but the title is quite subjective."


He could be wrong...I do know the Guinness World book of records use to list the Black Widow as the most venomous until the early 1980's.I also know that the Funnel web OR Wandering spiders bites aren't that bad and DON't require antivenom in most cases.Maybe most are "dry" bites,I don't know.

Here are some recorded bites with the H. infensa;

Summary of confirmed funnel-web spider bites presenting to Nambour Hospital, 1992-1998

Case/Age Sex Bite location Bite site Activity Symptoms/signs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1/34 Female- Maleny- Finger Gardening Painful bite, perioral paraesthesiae, neck and jaw muscle spasm, blurred vision, tongue fasciculation
2/62 Male- Maleny- Finger Gardening Painful bite diaphoresis, mild neck muscle spasm
3/68 Male -Fraser Island- Finger Gardening Painful bite, dizziness
4/8 months Male -Maleny- Finger Sleeping in cot Vomiting, tachycardia, muscle fasciculation, myoclonic jerks, sweating, salivation, altered conscious state
5/56 Male -Mapleton -Finger On bath towel in house Painful bite, perioral paraesthesiae

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Case/Age Sex Pressure-immobilisation/splint Antivenom ampoules administered Recovery Spider identification

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1/34 Female -Yes -2 Rapid- Male H. infensa (QMS 20633)
2/62 Male - - Within 8 hours -Female H. infensa (QMS 21549)
3/68 Male- Yes - Within 12 hours- Female H. infensa (QMS 30184)
4/8 months Male -Yes -1 Rapid- Male H. infensa (QMS 42731)
5/56 Male Yes - Within 8 hours- Male H. infensa (QMS 42860)

Patient 4 probably would have died without antivenom.

Here is an interesting article about the LD50 for the Phoneutria nigriventer .

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1678-91992003000200004

 

[Crotalus]

Martin Nicholas: No, Atrax, the Sydney funnel web male is is very dangerous but the venom toxicity is not as potent,it does not have the wide distribution and is not as active and aggressive. Still very nasty though."

He could be wrong...I do know the Guinness World book of records use to list the Black Widow as the most venomous until the early 1980's.I also know that the Funnel web OR Wandering spiders bites aren't that bad and DON't require antivenom in most cases.Maybe most are "dry" bites,I don't know.

Comparing two spiders to each other is like comparing apples with pears. If you get bitten and die it doesnt matter which is "more dangerous" then the other.

The first statement by Nicholas is true if you look on LD50 - but LD50 is only a indicator on the toxicity on mice. Not humans. If you get a full envenomation of a Atrax male and do not get serum, the risc are high that you die. This is not the case with Phoneutria venom.

Guinness Book of records is not a good reference source. Its full of crap.

You need serum if bitten by a funnel web. Since they developed the Atrax serum in the 1980's there have been no deaths due to a bite.

You might need serum after a Phoneutria bite but most survive the ordeal without.

You dont, in most cases, need widow serum after a bite of a Latrodectus. Most likely due to a small venom yield.

A good site that deals with Atrax venom and effects of bites:

http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/animal/atrax.htm

 

[Jeffh]

Comparing two spiders to each other is like comparing apples with pears. If you get bitten and die it doesnt matter which is "more dangerous" then the other.

The first statement by Nicholas is true if you look on LD50 - but LD50 is only a indicator on the toxicity on mice. Not humans. If you get a full envenomation of a Atrax male and do not get serum, the risc are high that you die. This is not the case with Phoneutria venom.

Guinness Book of records is not a good reference source. Its full of crap.

You need serum if bitten by a funnel web. Since they developed the Atrax serum in the 1980's there have been no deaths due to a bite.

You might need serum after a Phoneutria bite but most survive the ordeal without.

You dont, in most cases, need widow serum after a bite of a Latrodectus. Most likely due to a small venom yield.

A good site that deals with Atrax venom and effects of bites:

http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/animal/atrax.htm

Thats not what I"ve read about the Atrax...Most of the material I've read states only 10% of Altrax bites are severe enough to require antivenom.I've read that on several sites that I probably could find again if I needed too.The problem is the internet is more "full of crap" than Guiness book of records.Its hard to distinguish between fact and fiction on the internet.I would prefer the funnel web to have the record but I've seen no facts to back it up.All I've seen is poster's stating opinions or finding websites that back up their opinions which may or may not be accurate.I can find just as many resources that state the Brazilian wandering spider is the most venomous.I have emailed some "experts" that should be able to answer the question.