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The worlds most venomous spider? End-all-be-all-topic.

Discussion in 'Other Spiders & Arachnids' started by Shelob, Nov 1, 2004.

  1. Shelob

    Shelob Arachnoknight Old Timer

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    So I did some searching on the site and found a couple topics (with many pages of replies) where the question of which spider has the most toxic venom was asked. I read through these topics, but with so much arguing and scientific names I have to admit I came out a little confused. So I figured I would ask several questions and hopefully we can all get a little bit of knowledge.

    1. Which spider has the most toxic drop for drop venom?

    2. Which spider posseses the best combination of highest amount of drop-for-drop toxicity and amount of venom injected (like if the answer to #1 was the Blah Spider, but it hardly injected any venom at all when it bit, which spider has the best of both worlds)?

    3. Which spider kills the most people every year?

    4. Which spider has the most potent hemotoxin (i.e. the Brown Recluse, the Crab Spider, etc.)?

    If you want, to keep replies organized you could say the question number before your answer that way people know which one you are talking about. Thanks and hopefully we can shed some light on this hazy subject.
     
  2. Crotalus

    Crotalus Arachnoking Old Timer

    1. Should be Latrodectus mactans

    2. Most likely Hadronyche infensa or H. formidabilis. Possibly Phoneutria fera or P. nigriventer.

    3. Phoneutria ssp. I would say. And very few per year.

    4. Not sure, maybe Loxoscelus ssp.

    However, you must consider the nature of the spider, closeness to humans, willing to bite, venom potency and venom yield per bite.

    /Lelle
     
  3. Shelob

    Shelob Arachnoknight Old Timer

    Just to confirm the scientific names and to translate, in your opinion -

    1. Southern Black Widow

    2. Most likely a species of Funnel Web. Could also be the armed spider (that was the only common name for it I could find, is it a wandering spider?) or wandering spider a.k.a. banana spider.

    3. Species of spider in the same genus as that of the wandering spider.

    4. Brown recluse or its sub-species.

    Let me know if I did that right.
     
  4. Crotalus

    Crotalus Arachnoking Old Timer

    1. Yes.

    2. Hadronyche is australian (and one species on Papua New Guinea) funnel web spiders. Phoneutria ssp. is wandering spiders.

    3. More specific nigriventer (due to closeness to populated areas).

    4. L. reclusa and laeta is the ones who are most potent AFAIK.

    Common names are changing and not reliable, use the scientific names so no misunderstandings occur. Thats even more important if been bitten by one of the above mentioned species.

    /Lelle
     
  5. Steven

    Steven pede-a-holic Old Timer

    a bit off-topic :8o or maybe not,....
    but anyone knows anything about the venom of Macrothele gigas ?
     
  6. oblivion56

    oblivion56 Arachnobaron Old Timer

    dont forget trechona venosa,another dangerous spider from south america
     
  7. MUNG!!!

    MUNG!!! Arachnosquire

    Furthermore... what is the most potentially dangerous T... i have heard bad things about Java Yellowknees. :?
     
  8. JJJoshua

    JJJoshua Arachnobaron Old Timer

    That question should be posted in the T section, but I've heard alot of bad things about pokie bites, but in the mygalomorph department, the Sydney funnel web has the most dangerous bite.
     
  9. blacktara

    blacktara Arachnobaron

    Some general notes on venom and bites

    I am a physician in Georgia USA and have some experience with spider bite cases, so here's some general info

    Widow bites - can produce severe muscle cramping and flu like symptoms. The severe abdominal pain/cramping has been known to lead to a misdiagnosis of acute abdomen in cases that are really widow boite, with the result being that the patient ends up with an unneeded exploratory surgery to try and find a source of the pain in the belly that isnt there. Calcium salts can help with the cramping. In general, nothing more than pain medicine and/or calcium for the pain is needed along with some supportive care. In the cases I have had, the patients have described the experience as feeling like the worst case of the flu they ever had, and they usually feel like dirt for several days, but without any real life threatening issues. Small children, or the frail elderly can do worse, with death a possibility, especially in cases of multiple bites.
    The cases I have seen were a trucker who leaned up against a tree and thereby accidentally against a widow (which he brought with him to the ER in a jar!) The ER staff had quite a time gawking at it. Unfortunately for spidey, she lost a leg and ended up faring far worse out of the encounter than the bite victim, who was discharged after overnight observation in the hospital. The second cases was a moron who went poking around blind in his garden without gloves on despite having seen several widows in that location a few days before. DUH!

    Recluse - bites do happen, but, in contrast to widow bites which are underdiagnosed, they are overdiagnosed. It has become the trend to attribute any necrotic appearing ulcerative wound without a clear source to "spider bite", even in locales that are recluse-free.In fact, drug resistant Staph infections produce wounds that look a lot like recluse bite. In the only case of proven recluse bite that I have seen, (where the spider was brought in and id'd) the wound did take over a year to heal, and required plastic surgery to excise all the necrotic area and finally get to a point where it didnt just keep eroding more and more. Not all bites are that bad, but they can be a bear. The bite itself isnt life threatening, but the wound can be disfiguring, and if it gets infected, there can be problems

    The whole issue of "most venomous" is, in a way, sort of silly. There are several factors, including the LD-50 and the amount of venom injected (which can vary greatly amongst bites from the same species) Also, note that venom that is toxic to one species may not be to another. To wit, humans, other primates, and insects are equisitely sensitive to one component of Atrax venom, but cats and dogs arent, so to them, the bite isnt life threatening

    Tho bite of some old world tarantulas can be nasty, as evidenced by the diaries posted by some Pokie bite victims. That said, most lay people who are spider junkies refer to any big hairy eight-legged thing as a tarantula, so some of the horror stories are probably in fact referring to Phoneutria bites.

    Any spider with large enough fangs can inflict a nasty deep bite that hurts and that runs the risk of getting infected

    Whether daddy long legs venom is actually nasty I dont know, but its irrelevent, because their bite cant penetrate the skin

    Hobo spiders arent found naturally in these parts, so I have no experience there.

    The problem I see with keeping the non-native nasties is that if a bite does occur (and even the most experienced keepers/handlers will inevitably have a screw up someday that might or might not lead to a bite) - if the bite occurs, antivenom would be nigh impossible to get a hold of. This is the same problem with herpers who are into keeping hot snakes Plus, tho there are some that are experienced and mature enough to handle these critters, the fact remains that the lure of keeping a venomous "pet" is often the machismo aspect. Along these lines, the only rattlesnakes bites I have seen have inevitably been where some dork (usually drunk) starting messing with a snake to try and show off to his buddies or a lady friend

    As far as pain, crotalid bites are right up there. I had a fella who got tagged in the knuckle by a copperhead - grown man tough guy who was about in tears for days even when pumped full of opiates. The pain was mostly from some ghastly swelling

    Anyway, if anyone has experience with Atrax of Phoneutria bites, I'd love to hear an account

    Cheers
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  10. Crotalus

    Crotalus Arachnoking Old Timer

    Since Phoneutria is a wellknown spider in the countries where this genus can be found I dont think they mistake a tarantula for a Phoneutria. What do you base this on? Its more a misunderstanding that once thought the european wolf spider, Lycosa tarentula, is supposed to be dangerous that created the myth that theraphosids are dangerous to humans.


    Antivenom might be impossible to obtain where you live but that doesnt mean that its impossible to find everywhere does it? I can easily get serum for most species here.
    You put "experienced and mature keepers" in the same sentence as "machismo"" - I can only conclude you are against keeping certain species of animals but that doesnt make you the right to judge alot of serious keepers to have a machocomplex. Please see the difference between serious keepers and drunk people that play with a rattler.

    /Lelle
     
  11. Wade

    Wade Arachnoking Old Timer

    If you're talking about harvestmen (Opiliones), they are not spiders, they have no venom at all. In the US, these are very common in and around buildings and are often see walking around on walls. They do not build webs, have long skinny legs, and appear to have only one body section (abdomen and cephlathorax appear fused). I think these are what most in the US are talking about when they say "daddy long legs"

    The other arachnid known as "daddy long legs" are cellar spiders (Pholcidae). They also have long thin legs, but have two distict body sections and are almost always seen in webs. They have venom, but as far as I know there are no reports on their venom being dangerous. Don't know know if their fangs can penetrate skin or not, but they are quite a bit bigger than recluse spiders and at least as big as widows (although they may not get as heavy).

    Recluse bites are known to cause problems without actually penatrating the skin, so penetration isn't really a requisute for potential medical problems.

    Wade
     
  12. MilkmanWes

    MilkmanWes Arachnobaron Old Timer


    And if we have even discovered it yet. Plenty of bugs out there we have never examined, cataloged, and named yet. Who is to say the deadliest spider in the world has even been found yet?
     
  13. mimic58

    mimic58 Arachnobaron

    funny enoug i red up on this as i was considerng feeding them to my slings , we get alot of the here ,anyway what i discovered "apparently?" that "dady long legs" actualy posses one of most potent venoms known in the spider world ,The only reason there are not many fatalitys is due to there fangs being unable to penitrate our skin.

    Daddy long legs being the small Pholcidae spiders with say a 3.5" leg span ,
    http://www.xs4all.nl/~ednieuw/Spiders/Pholcidae/pholcus_phalangoides.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2005
  14. Crotalus

    Crotalus Arachnoking Old Timer


    Well i was talking about spiders we have discovered and have some sort of knowledge about when it comes to bites on humans.
    But yes, offcourse there might be a species with a even more potent venom then those we have done research on.
    There might also be a gigantic one lurking about in the rainforest somewhere, but we dont consider that to be the largest before we found it right? ;-)

    /Lelle
     
  15. Wade

    Wade Arachnoking Old Timer


    Which "daddy long legs" are you talking about? Where did you find this information? Harvestmen-no venom. Cellar spiders? Fatalities?

    I'd be hesitant to feen any other spider to slings. If not eaten right away, they can easily turn the tables. Using predators as feeders may not be a great idea!

    Wade
     
  16. Sheri

    Sheri Arachnoking


    AND they're blue to boot. Terrestrial, and no urticating hairs.
    Parahybana sized clutches, OBT resistance to poor conditions.

    Good point Lelle. {D
     
  17. mimic58

    mimic58 Arachnobaron

  18. Crotalus

    Crotalus Arachnoking Old Timer

    Internet is sometimes misleading.

    http://www.snopes2.com/critters/wild/longlegs.htm
    And I can give you alot of sites that states this is a myth. But even if it was true, the venom yield wouldnt be high enough to cause serious harm.

    /Lelle
     
  19. mimic58

    mimic58 Arachnobaron

    Perhaps not as i said there is alot of debait onit... The link you posted states this.
    >
    If these spiders were indeed deadly poisonous but couldn't bite humans, then the only way we would know that they are poisonous is by milking them and injecting the venom into humans. For a variety of reasons including Amnesty International and a humanitarian code of ethics, this research has never been done
    >
    If you read it fully you will see there is no evidence to support the claim OR disprove it iver......
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2005
  20. MilkmanWes

    MilkmanWes Arachnobaron Old Timer

    Was really poking at the thread title which says 'end-all-be-all'. In an area that admitedly has a lot of discovery left that seems rather premature. :)
     
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