questions and concerns of a first time breeder

[Arachnophoric]

I realized the mistake after i already said can't say whether he's Honduran or Nicaraguan. i do not expect anyone to believe me after that mistake, but i am sure. i will make sure to be more careful with my wording in the future.

Thankfully it's usually pretty obvious visually to differentiate between honduran form and Nicaraguan form. If it makes you feel better, you can throw up a picture or two to get a second opinion and set some minds at ease.

I'm sure you've gathered from the response that hybridization is highly frowned upon in the hobby, especially when it comes to B. albopilosum honduran form and Nicaraguan form. With the Nicaraguan form being newer to the honduran, it's a little alarming that people just assume it's okay to pair them with hobby form mutts and further muddy the species, and goes to show how we ended up with the honduran form in the first place. No offense to honduran form B. albos - I love my female to bits.

 

[LunarB]

Thankfully it's usually pretty obvious visually to differentiate between hobby form and Nicaraguan form. If it makes you feel better, you can throw up a picture or two to get a second opinion and set some minds at ease.

I'm sure you've gathered from the response that hybridization is highly frowned upon in the hobby, especially when it comes to B. albopilosum hobby form and Nicaraguan form. With the Nicaraguan form being newer to the hobby, it's a little alarming that people just assume it's okay to pair them with hobby form mutts and further muddy the species, and goes to show how we ended up with the hobby form in the first place. No offense to hobby form B. albos - I love my female to bits.

i am very aware! i get pretty worried myself when i see people talk about crossbreeding. here are my male and female. i did notice that she had a darker carapace, but she definitely does not have the very distinct thick white hairs that a Nicaraguan has. (the male is the one pictured in the larger tupperware from when i transported him a little while back, and the females the one climbing out of the smaller tupperware while i was moving her to her enclosure)

 

[cold blood]

You have there one Nicaraguan and one Honduran.

 

[Liquifin]

Male- Honduran
Female- Looks Nicaraguan, but one more picture would help just to be sure.

I hope that the T. hobby will put hybrids to a stop which will probably never happen as long as inexperienced people exists in this hobby who's to desperate for slings. This hobby needs less of them for sure. I'm so tired and scared of hybrids running around and messing with the gene pool. If she laid a sac, I would've burned the egg sac entirely. I know it sounds harsh, but I rather do it for the good of the T. hobby than letting them roam around to be sold to a clueless person to create more abominations.

 

[Tenebrarius]

But I rather do it for the good of the T. hobby than letting them roam around to be sold to a clueless person to create more abominations.

>implying it isn't already like that

I'm not cruel. I wouldn't burn baby slings even if they are vile mutts. If it were me I wouldn't sell them and take the burden of housing those hundreds of hybrids as punishment for my sins until they die out.

or just not incubate the eggs and keep them cold so they wont develop.

this poses a real moral issue. clearly it is wrong to hybridize but isn't it wrong to kill cute baby Ts? I should make this a thread (like this comment if your think that would be a good discussion, otherwise I wont bother)

 

[Arachnophoric]

>implying it isn't already like that

I'm not cruel. I wouldn't burn baby slings even if they are vile mutts. If it were me I wouldn't sell them and take the burden of housing those hundreds of hybrids as punishment for my sins until they die out.

or just not incubate the eggs and keep them cold so they wont develop.

this poses a real moral issue. clearly it is wrong to hybridize but isn't it wrong to kill cute baby Ts? I should make this a thread (like this comment if your think that would be a good discussion, otherwise I wont bother)

Pretty sure there's already been a thread or two on the topic.

I'd pull the sac and freeze it myself. As much as it'd pain me to do so, I wouldn't be able to guarantee I could care for and house 100+ hybrid slings for an upwards of 20 years, or that anyone else willing to purchase them would keep them as pet-only and not breed or sell it. There's just way too many unknowns, and it's far kinder to freeze developing eggs than it would be to kill off fully developed slings.

 

[Tenebrarius]

Pretty sure there's already been a thread or two on the topic.

I'd pull the sac and freeze it myself. As much as it'd pain me to do so, I wouldn't be able to guarantee I could care for and house 100+ hybrid slings for an upwards of 20 years, or that anyone else willing to purchase them would keep them as pet-only and not breed or sell it. There's just way too many unknowns, and it's far kinder to freeze developing eggs than it would be to kill off fully developed slings.

for me prevention is the first step as I'm sure it is for you and everyone else. It prevents us from having to make hard and tragic decisions.

 

[Arachnophoric]

for me prevention is the first step as I'm sure it is for you and everyone else. It prevents us from having to make hard and tragic decisions.

Absolutely, but sometimes accidents do happen.

 

[LunarB]

Male- Honduran
Female- Looks Nicaraguan, but one more picture would help just to be sure.

I hope that the T. hobby will put hybrids to a stop which will probably never happen as long as inexperienced people exists in this hobby who's to desperate for slings. This hobby needs less of them for sure. I'm so tired and scared of hybrids running around and messing with the gene pool. If she laid a sac, I would've burned the egg sac entirely. I know it sounds harsh, but I rather do it for the good of the T. hobby than letting them roam around to be sold to a clueless person to create more abominations.

here is another photo, me and the seller were sure she didn't look Nicaraguan

here is another photo, me and the seller were sure she didn't look Nicaraguan

if it is any consolation, I obviously will not pare them again if her being Honduran is the case, and will dispose of the eggs if layed. I am now hearing the seller isn't the most trustworthy despite his reviews(which I thoroughly checked). i am so bummed out about this ):

 

[Liquifin]

Yours have the hair colors on a Honduran, but hairs (a lot of hairs that's straight) of Nicaraguan. Some Nicaraguans do have a more copper color resembling closer to the Honduran counterpart.

Comparison:

Honduran Sub-adult female

0.1 Freshly Molted Sub-adult B. Albopilosum Honduran 2/2

• Liquifin
• Apr 15, 2019
• 3
• albopilosus brachypelma albopilosum curlyhair tarantula honduran honduran curly hair honduras tliltocatl tliltocatl albopilosus

Better picture of Camilla freshly molted. Looking a little better in this picture.

0.1 Freshly Molted Sub-adult B. albopilosum Honduran 1/2

• Liquifin
• Apr 15, 2019
• 1
• albopilosum brachypelma brachypelma albopilosum curly hair curlyhair tarantula honduran honduran curly hair honduras

Freshly molted female, Camilla. Her molt measured very close to 4'', so she's past 4'' in...

0.1 B. albo Post Molt Feeding - Camilla

• Liquifin
• Apr 20, 2019
• albopilosus brachypelma albopilosum curlyhair tarantula feeding honduran honduran curly hair honduras tliltocatl tliltocatl albopilosus

Good seeing her eat again after a while since pre-molt and waiting post molt. Love my girl...

Nicaraguan Adult Female

Eggsac B. albopilosum (Nicaragua)

• Liquifin
• Feb 9, 2019
• 1
• albopilosum brachypelma brachypelma albopilosum curlyhair tarantula egg sac female mature female

Decent size sac, but I don't know why it seems so small in this photo. But whatever, twelve days...

Standing Proud (B. albopilsoum)

• Liquifin
• Mar 31, 2019
• 2
• albopilosus brachypelma albopilosum curlyhair tarantula feeding tliltocatl tliltocatl albopilosus

Rosa standing proud with extra feeding.

View media item 54334
Nicaraguan Mature Male
View media item 52957View media item 53040

MM Sr. Floof 4 months since Final Molt

• Liquifin
• Dec 9, 2018
• 3
• albopilosum brachypelma brachypelma albopilosum curlyhair tarantula male mature male nicaragua

After 4 months since he became MM and still going strong, no signs of super old age yet. And...

 

[LunarB]

Yours have the hair colors on a Honduran, but hairs (a lot of hairs that's straight) of Nicaraguan. Some Nicaraguans do have a more copper color resembling closer to the Honduran counterpart.

Comparison:

Honduran Sub-adult female

0.1 Freshly Molted Sub-adult B. Albopilosum Honduran 2/2

• Liquifin
• Apr 15, 2019
• 3
• albopilosus brachypelma albopilosum curlyhair tarantula honduran honduran curly hair honduras tliltocatl tliltocatl albopilosus

Better picture of Camilla freshly molted. Looking a little better in this picture.

0.1 Freshly Molted Sub-adult B. albopilosum Honduran 1/2

• Liquifin
• Apr 15, 2019
• 1
• albopilosum brachypelma brachypelma albopilosum curly hair curlyhair tarantula honduran honduran curly hair honduras

Freshly molted female, Camilla. Her molt measured very close to 4'', so she's past 4'' in...

0.1 B. albo Post Molt Feeding - Camilla

• Liquifin
• Apr 20, 2019
• albopilosus brachypelma albopilosum curlyhair tarantula feeding honduran honduran curly hair honduras tliltocatl tliltocatl albopilosus

Good seeing her eat again after a while since pre-molt and waiting post molt. Love my girl...

Nicaraguan Adult Female

Eggsac B. albopilosum (Nicaragua)

• Liquifin
• Feb 9, 2019
• 1
• albopilosum brachypelma brachypelma albopilosum curlyhair tarantula egg sac female mature female

Decent size sac, but I don't know why it seems so small in this photo. But whatever, twelve days...

Standing Proud (B. albopilsoum)

• Liquifin
• Mar 31, 2019
• 2
• albopilosus brachypelma albopilosum curlyhair tarantula feeding tliltocatl tliltocatl albopilosus

Rosa standing proud with extra feeding.

View media item 54334
Nicaraguan Mature Male
View media item 52957View media item 53040

MM Sr. Floof 4 months since Final Molt

• Liquifin
• Dec 9, 2018
• 3
• albopilosum brachypelma brachypelma albopilosum curlyhair tarantula male mature male nicaragua

After 4 months since he became MM and still going strong, no signs of super old age yet. And...

so do you think the girl I got is already a hybrid? ):

 

[Liquifin]

so do you think the girl I got is already a hybrid? ):

Nope, she's Nicaraguan for sure. Some imports of Nicaraguan B. albopilosum are a golden copper as well like your female. What you need to look out for is the hairs on the legs. Nicaragua have considerably more hairs than the honduran. I'm 100% yours is a Nicaraguan Curly Hair and not a hybrid.

Here is a thread from some time ago of a wild caught import Nicaraguan curly Hair:
http://arachnoboards.com/threads/wild-caught-brachypelma-albopilosum-from-nicaragua.280413/

 

[Mpmackenna]

Riddle me this.... Nicaragua and Honduras are right next to each other. They trade goods, cigars, tobacco, etc. Isn't the creation of a hybrid native species evolutionally inevitable?
For example:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/new-bird-species-arises-from-hybrids-as-scientists-watch-20171213/

 

[cold blood]

Riddle me this.... Nicaragua and Honduras are right next to each other. They trade goods, cigars, tobacco, etc. Isn't the creation of a hybrid native species evolutionally inevitable?
For example:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/new-bird-species-arises-from-hybrids-as-scientists-watch-20171213/

no

 

[Mpmackenna]

no

Compelling argument.

 

[Liquifin]

Riddle me this.... Nicaragua and Honduras are right next to each other. They trade goods, cigars, tobacco, etc. Isn't the creation of a hybrid native species evolutionally inevitable?
For example:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/new-bird-species-arises-from-hybrids-as-scientists-watch-20171213/

Natural hybrids happen here and there. But this thread is talking hybrids in captivity on accident, so are you saying that hybrid T.'s in captivity are okay??

 

[Mpmackenna]

Natural hybrids happen here and there. But this thread is talking hybrids in captivity on accident, so are you saying that hybrid T.'s in captivity are okay??

I believe anything in captivity is OK. By definition, things in captivity are confined and imprisoned away from the environment and the public. I can assure you the spiders don't care and because they are in captivity, by definition, they aren't interfering with spiders in Central America, so I fail to see any real victim here. I say let the market dictare whether there is a use for hybrid Ts. I dont see what makes it so much different from a Labradoodle or say a hybrid bass. I am always super careful about anything that sounds like an infringement on personal liberties. If you want to breed your goldfish with your python in the privacy of your own home and then share your gold, mouse eating, aqua dwelling, pets with your friends so they can enjoy them in the privacy of their home, I say that is your business, and I will frown on anyone who judges you for it.

 

[Liquifin]

I believe anything in captivity is OK. By definition, things in captivity are confined and imprisoned away from the environment and the public. I can assure you the spiders don't care and because they are in captivity, by definition, they aren't interfering with spiders in Central America, so I fail to see any real victim here. I say let the market dictare whether there is a use for hybrid Ts. I dont see what makes it so much different from a Labradoodle or say a hybrid bass. I am always super careful about anything that sounds like an infringement on personal liberties. If you want to breed your goldfish with your python in the privacy of your own home and then share your gold, mouse eating, aqua dwelling, pets with your friends so they can enjoy them in the privacy of their home, I say that is your business, and I will frown on anyone who judges you for it.

What about Florida??? There issue of everything that's out there?? Hybrids and invasive species?? Just because it's in captivity doesn't mean there's no chance of them going out. I believe there are small reports of B. vagans in Florida.

I can assure you the spiders don't care and because they are in captivity

Wrong, some spiders (not tarantulas) know what species they breed to and cannot breed with each other, even in captivity. An example is the Habronattus genus of jumping spiders. Believe it or not, while the males of this species cannot tell other female species of this genus apart, the females can easily tell which males are the same species as them. Which is why when males within this genus tries to attract females of another species (with the same genus) without knowing, the females know what species are their own and either eats or avoids the males unless it's there own. You can try to breed the Habronattus species in captivity to create hybrids, but I assure it's never going to work since females can somehow identify their species apart from another during breeding season. I don't encourage it and I consider forced man made hybrids as sacrilegious.

 

[Arachnophoric]

so I fail to see any real victim here

The victim would be both the Ts AND the hobby. Hybrids can be incredibly difficult to spot when compared to the species bred to make said hybrid. Whoever owns the hybrid needs money - knowing that hybrid Ts are generally frowned upon, the individual sells it as the species of one of the parents to an unsuspecting individual who intends to breed that species. The breeding is successful and they now unknowingly have a sac full of hybrids that they're going to sell as pure - now hundreds of unknown hybrid Ts floating around in breeding collections and further hybridizing our hobby blood. This is why conservation efforts aren't being made with endangered Poecilotheria species using the hobby's extensive supply - they're convinced our captive bred Ts are rife with mutts due to the lack of tracking on who's breeding what and just taking their word for it.

I dont see what makes it so much different from a Labradoodle

It's very different. All domestic dogs are the same species, Canis lupus familiaris. They just look different after humans took dogs and started breeding them for specific traits and characteristics. Hybrids are literally two different species that under natural circumstances wouldn't meet or mate in the wild. Offspring of hybrid animals frequently tend to be deformed, have health issues, be infertile, etc. And how do you care for a hybrid T if the parent species have wildly different care requirements??

 

[cold blood]

There is a lot of confusion regarding "natural" hybridization in the wild. People seem to think this is a common occurrence, while in fact, its actually incredibly rare. Creating new species by hybridization is almost unheard of, that's not the way it usually works, it typically takes evolution, often involving isolation allowing for a group of animals to evolve slightly different from others and this takes serious time and countless generations to accomplish. When it does occur in nature, it most often results in sterile offspring, which actually protect both species from becoming muddled up. This often isn't the case with ts, which makes tinkering with such things so potentially more disruptive within the parental species.

With regards to the hobby....our hobby is one strongly dependent on captive breeding, with many countries making importation harder and harder and many just not allowing it at all (and many keepers preferring captive bred)....and we sure as heck don't want to go encouraging smuggling because we keep destroying what we have by playing irresponsible breeding games with what we have been blessed with being able to keep or have access to.

Hybridization, instead of creating a new species, actually destroys the bloodlines of both species involved forever. In order to not have it cause issues, the breeder would need to literally keep every offspring in house, till death, to prevent any of the franken-spiders from being bred down the line. No one can unload entire sacs with any guarantee of what will happen to every one down the line or who's hands they will eventually fall into....leading to accidental further hybridization, which happens because they are often not easily distinguished from one parent...and every time just one is bred, it effects the bloodline of every single offspring down the line and their offspring and so on...once you do this, there is no going back, pure bloodlines are destroyed...forever.

Hybridization in a hobby dependent on captive breeding success is about the most irresponsible thing one can do to that hobby, and there is good reason why its so frowned upon by reputable/responsible people that love the tarantula hobby.

These albos here for instance, show indications that they are actually two separate species (I cant recall if it was emboli or spermatheca differences, or both).