Looking for a new, reliable guard dog.

[ThomasH]

Boa's just trolling, guys, let's just leave it.

Oh yeah, because any body who questions dogs is just sick, good-for-nothing and messed up.

 

[Mushroom Spore]

Oh yeah, because any body who questions dogs is just sick, good-for-nothing and messed up.

You don't seem to know the definition of trolling. "Sick, good-for-nothing, and messed up" are not actually what I said - but bringing that into the thread and thus accusing me of saying it are also pretty good trolling tactics. They're not going to *work*, but they were pretty good.

Yes, I do think you're trolling. You come into a thread about dog breed personalities with a huge rant in which you claim that dogs are worthless and wrong, that they're like a "helpless crying good for nothing baby" (man I don't like kids and even I don't say that), and accuse dogs of being horrible human-eating babykillers who should all be regulated and/or shot. Then you veer wildly off-topic onto how domesticating ANYTHING is evil in the eyes of Jesus, then veer off *again*.

If you're not trolling, the alternative is that you can't even keep your own rants on-topic.

EDIT: Just for clarity in case anyone's unfamiliar with the term:

"Messages intended solely to annoy and/or offend other users by going against the clear nature of a board, topic or chat room."

"deliberately provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards, with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention."

 

[ThomasH]

I never accused you of saying that. It takes at least two to argue. If you pay attention my rant is on topic. What ever, I ain't even going to waste any more time on you. Talk to a wall willya?

 

[Tim Benzedrine]

I have to ask. Just what sort of animal meets YOUR requirements of being worthy of bring companions for us? Do you hate cats? Lemurs? Naked mole rats? Actually, I'm not crazy about naked mole rats myself. Interesting critters, but kinda disgusting looking. Someone really ought to start a "Clothe the naked mole rats" campaign, have a telethon or perhaps get Bono to champion the cause with an all-star music video or something. Get some pants on those things. Maybe provide dental care if there is any cash left over, have you seen the incisors on those things? There is clearly an market for naked mole rat braces. But I digress.

Do you have problems with other animals, say boa constrictors for example, that have been selectively bred? You know, for different colour morphs and things like that?

Just to show that I'm nothing if not fair, I gotta agree with you on the whole crested Chinese dog thing. Now THAT is a case of genetic cruelty if I ever saw one. They look like someone took a chihuahua and crossed it with one of those naked mole rats I mentioned earlier. But don't get me started on those atrocities of nature again!
Anyway, back to the matter at hand, you seem to be a bit out to lunch in regards to the domestication of wolves into dogs.
Just a quit googling of "wolf life span" brought up many results like "In the wild Wolves rarely live beyond 10 years. However, they can live for up to 20 years in captivity. "

Now, every dog I've had, with the exception of one, have lived to at least 12 years, with a couple hitting the 16 year mark, so that's a pretty decent trade off, if you ask me. I'm not gonna look it up, but I imagine the average life-span of a domestic dog is about 12 years, depending on the breed. Someone more savvy about dogs can confirm or dispute that guess, if they care to.
I think one of the mistakes that animal rights nuts make, (and I'm not saying you are an AR nut any more than I'm saying you are a troll, you just sound a little like one or the other, or maybe both) is that they see the domestication of animals for pets as some sort of slavery, when in a lot of cases it is more like symbiosis. Both parties benefit from the exploitation of the other. I'm not talking about the use of animals for food or sport, that's a whole different debate.
But in the case of dogs or cats, they supply us with companionship, security, entertainment, protection from naked mole rats, and various other services. In return, they get medical care, shelter, regular feedings, belly rubs, the latest in squeaky toy technology, and other assorted comforts. Again, not a bad trade-off, if you ask me

Anyway, this is what sets of my troll alarm:
"Not to mention you'll probably need an alarm system FROM the dog. They have more human body parts rotting in their stomachs than any other animal and kill an estimated thirty five people a year in the states alone! They go after the weak, mostly killing children and the elderly. Thats more than all the other captive animals combined. Why dogs are loved, not regulated and called man's best friend is beyond me. More like man's baby killer."

Wow, an entire 35 people! Truly dogs are the scourge of the earth second only to telemarketers and naked mole rats! How many dogs do you suppose are out there? That's a pretty small number of dog related deaths considering the dog population. Needless to say, any dog related fatality is a tragedy, but 35 fatalities isn't exactly an epidemic. Of course I'm sure that if you figured in non-fatal attacks, the number would jump considerably, but you did say "kill" not "injure".
I noodled around a bit and learned that from 1990 to 2003, 756 people were struck and killed by lightning. If I calculated correctly, that's 58 people killed a year. Do you worry a lot about lightning?

If your post is on the level, and like some others in the thread, I'm not entirely convinced it is, you sound like you have a serious dog phobia. Or maybe baby issues. Either way, it would probably be in your best interest to concentrate those fears on something that can be an actual menace. Like naked mole rats.

 

[ThomasH]

I have problems with any domesticated/selectively bred animal. Including "morphs" more like mutants. Wolves DO live longer than dogs would in the wild and we already know they live longer in captivity. 20 years is a considerable bit more than 12, eh? So you basicly proved my point. I kind of believe animal rights. I believe we shouldn't use animals to our benifit or change what they are. But I also believe that some pests need to be killed for our safety but they should always be respected and killed humanely. We'll never know if the domesticated wanted to be domesticated so we shouldn't have forced it. You could spend a million dollars on toys for your dog but they still don't nearly mimic the simulation of wilderness. Don't bring cats into this we're already debating over enough. Think what you want. I don't care about lightning. It doesn't go after the weak and helpless, its natural and I'm safe cause it only kills idiots. BTW my dog number was about ONLY the U.S, I don't know what yours was about. I don't have dog phobia. It just completely pisses me off that now no matter where I go I have to listen to the damn barking every night and day. I just don't get why people love dogs.

 

[pitbulllady]

I am 100% against dogs. They are stupid, eat a ton, bark constantly and require a lot of care. I think our domestication of dogs over thousands of years IS morally wrong. From being inbred some many times we have engineered them to be pretty and helpful. But we have also engineered them to become much, much weaker. They now have shorter lives, they suffer from issues that a full blooded wolf would never face and lets face it they are a heck of a lot more obnoxious than a wolf! Dogs bark and bark and bark until you feel like you have a helpless crying good for nothing baby. The only difference between a dog and a helpless baby is the dog is stronger, the baby will grow up to independance, and of course the dog didn't come out of a [human] uterus. Not to mention you'll probably need an alarm system FROM the dog. They have more human body parts rotting in their stomachs than any other animal and kill an estimated thirty five people a year in the states alone! They go after the weak, mostly killing children and the elderly. Thats more than all the other captive animals combined. Why dogs are loved, not regulated and called man's best friend is beyond me. More like man's baby killer.

It's very, very obvious you've never actually kept real wolves. I HAVE, and guess what? THEY ARE JUST LIKE DOGS, because they ARE the same species! With the exception of behaviors that we have selectively bred for in some dog breeds, or rather, selectively enhanced, as those behaviors were there all along, wolf behavior is identical to dog behavior. Everything you find obnoxious and unpleasant about dogs, you'll see the same thing in wolves. Plus, they shed a TON of hair, unlike short-coated dogs. And, no, actually HORSES kill more people per year than any other domesticated animal in the US, and I'm not even including people falling from or being thrown by horses, but I have never, ever heard such hate directed towards horses. It's rather stupid, if I must say so myself, to come on an animal forum and spew hate towards ANY animal, especially when every single one of us, regardless of what animal we CHOOSE to keep, is under attack by the Animal Rights people, who want nothing more than to take away OUR rights to choose what sort of animals we keep, by eliminating animal ownership, period! While they're busy with their propaganda to convince you and others of your ilk to hate dogs, and make it illegal to keep dogs, they're equally busy convincing old Mrs. Foo-Foo Dog Owner that your spiders, snakes, scorpions, etc., are a major threat to her and her beloved grandchildren, either through escapes/releases, followed by attacks, or from spreading Salmonella that will kill all the little babies. I'm surprised they haven't linked the outbreak in tomatoes and other veggies to some "exotic" animal keeper, yet. Every time someone starts up with their "I hate(insert animal type here) and wish we'd just get rid of all of 'em" rhetoric, it hurts all of us, because it gives more power and more credence to the people who want to achieve an animal-free society, by any means.

pitbulllady

 

[crpy]

Dogs help so many people in so many ways from guide dogs to bomb dogs, they are to be revered.
Wise up Boa.

 

[Mushroom Spore]

Talk to a wall willya?

It seems I already am.

 

[ThomasH]

PB Lady: Dogs will NEVER become illegal. The government's number one concern is the economy. Dogs are ABSOLUTELY perfect for the economy. They draw in money by the 100's of millions a year. Look at tobacco and alcohol, there are groups and commercials against it every where. Alcohol and tobbaco draw in enough money to be ignored by the government. Other exotics not so much money so the government is free to hate those and use scare tactics against them. I've been around wolves, they are nothing like dogs. You're probably talking about dog and wolf mixes. Why should hair shedding be an issue? There is no reason to keep them indoors anyway, the obvious exception being vet visits.
crpy: There is nothing that a dog can do that technology can't. The only reason some still rely on dogs is that dogs are cheaper than the technology and more fun to use.

 

[Tim Benzedrine]

I have problems with any domesticated/selectively bred animal. Including "morphs" more like mutants.

Okay, just a quick hypocrisy check, there.

Wolves DO live longer than dogs would in the wild and we already know they live longer in captivity. 20 years is a considerable bit more than 12, eh? So you basicly proved my point.

Maybe. But if they need to be in captivity to gain that 8 year benefit, what difference does it make if they are domesticated>
Also, if you take into consideration that animals are blessed with lacking the knowledge that their time is limited, I'm not so sure that having a comfortable, safe life at the cost of having 8 years or so shaved off their life-span is a bad thing.
Naturally, we've kept these longevity facts hidden from dogs. Or at least have tried to, but you always have ARAs going around trumpeting that the dogs have been short-changed. Once the dogs catch on, we'll end up with a lot of clinically depressed pooches who have decided that life should be something out of a Jack London novel.
Probably the ones that bother you by barking are the ones that found out they got screwed and are just bitchin' about it.

I kind of believe animal rights. I believe we shouldn't use animals to our benifit or change what they are.

So you refuse virtually all medical aid? That's commendable. A tad dangerous, but noble nonetheless. Medicines and surgical procedures are for wimps, anyway.

But I also believe that some pests need to be killed for our safety

Wait. That is kinda for our benefit too, right? Now I'm all confused!

We'll never know if the domesticated wanted to be domesticated so we shouldn't have forced it.

Well, when asked if they wished to be domesticated, 8 out of ten wolves said nothing. One said "Growl-rawrrr-bark-rowf!" The tenth ate the pollster. In most countries this is considered implied consent, and would stand up in court so the wolves were rounded up at gunpoint and forced to subjugate to us. And that's how we got domestic dogs.
Don't believe those commie pinko stories of how they hung around humans and slowly built up a mutual trust, that's just propaganda.

Don't bring cats into this we're already debating over enough.

I'm not setting up a debate of cats vs dogs. I merely wondered whether you thought the world was better off without them, a creature whose background lies along parallel lines as far as domestication goes. it isn't about which one is better. Call it another hypocrisy check if you like.

Think what you want. I don't care about lightning. It doesn't go after the weak and helpless, its natural

Hey, what's more natural than going after the sick and the helpless. I really hope you don't think that the wolf, in all of his Wilderness Nobility(tm) only goes for prey that has a sporting chance. Hmmmm....

Pack Leader: Okay youse guys, here's how it's going down. You see that group of weak fawns over there? Well, ignore 'em! We got bigger fish to fry. We are going after that bull elk over there. Yeah, that one, the one that is sharpening it's antlers with that wolf skull.

Fang: Gee, I dunno boss, that thing looks like it weighs in at 2000 pounds. What do we weigh as a group? 600 pounds? Can't we at least go after that old blind cow elk with the broken leg?

Pack Leader: Aw, shaddup! We are noble savages. Those fawns would be easy pickings and the cow wouldn't be any kind of challenge at all. Nope, that bull will take a few of us with it, but those of you that don't make it won't have died in vain!

Fang: Dammit, I KNEW I shooda took that pollster up on his domestication offer instead of eating him!

BTW my dog number was about ONLY the U.S, I don't know what yours was about.

Whoops! My bad! I meant to state that those numbers were a compilation of lightning fatalities in the U.S.

I don't have dog phobia. It just completely pisses me off that now no matter where I go I have to listen to the damn barking every night and day. I just don't get why people love dogs.

So now it begins to sound more like a personal issue rather than moral outrage.
And I don't get why so many people love sports, olives, and that one chick from "Sex and the City", but there ya go.....

 

[dtknow]

Well, when asked if they wished to be domesticated, 8 out of ten wolves said nothing. One said "Growl-rawrrr-bark-rowf!" The tenth ate the pollster. In most countries this is considered implied consent, and would stand up in court so the wolves were rounded up at gunpoint and forced to subjugate to us. And that's how we got domestic dogs.
Don't believe those commie pinko stories of how they hung around humans and slowly built up a mutual trust, that's just propaganda.

Haha this is a gem! Its funny how flame wars bring out the best and the worst in people.

Oh, may I end with the question. What do you keep, Boa constrictor?

 

[ThomasH]

Whatever. One side isn't going to make the other's mind change, lets call it over already. You can have dogs just shut 'em up at night.

and that one chick from "Sex and the City", but there ya go.....

Sarah Jessica Parker? Yeah I know, me neither. Her face looks like a foot for god's sake. What does that have to do with sex?

 

[ThomasH]

Oh, may I end with the question. What do you keep, Boa constrictor?

Sure. Herps and Inverts.

 

[arachyd]

"There is nothing that a dog can do that technology can't."

How do you come up with a statement like that? What technology will love you more than it loves other people (which by the way can't be measured since technology does not love)? What technology will sacrifice its "life" for someone the way a dog will? What technology actually will enjoy your company and the sound of your voice?

As far as the 35 people killed by dogs per year...dogs have continually saved many more people than they've killed and a large number of those that have killed people are dogs that have been trained to attack or have been mistreated. This hardly proves that dogs are murderous fiends.

The relationships between people and dogs are not entirely unnatural. Dogs (and wolves) are highly social creatures. Even when there are other members of their own kind around they have frequently been known to adopt or develop friendships with other species both while pets and while in the wild.

If you have neighbors who let their dogs bark all the time guess what? It isn't the dogs' fault, it is the neighbors' fault. That is why most towns have noise and nuisance barking laws. Call the police and file a complaint if it bugs you but don't go making generalized hate statements about an animal that millions of people in the US and worldwide have been welcoming into their homes for hundreds of years with no report of millions of dog-mauling deaths.

 

[crpy]

Heres another thing boa,
my great dane was abused by his former owner, he was beaten on the head by a weird control freak that had no clue about canine psychology. when I came into his life he would violently shy away if I went to touch his head. I worked with him for along time and now I can do anything to him, he is practically glued to me. You see ,he trusts me completely, and you can bet he will never trust the former again, they dont forget.

This is the thing, I made the difference and he knows it and I LOVE THAT BOND.

 

[Veneficus]

Oh really? Explain why the domestication of an animal should be ethical. Why should WE chose an animal's looks, life style and service we want from it? We aren't Jesus, we shouldn't make his decisions. The only thing I said that wasn't a fact is that I mistook 100s of years for 1,000.

If you paid attention to your rant, you'd see where you made the generalizations:

Dogs bark and bark and bark until you feel like you have a helpless crying good for nothing baby.

Not all dogs bark and bark and bark. There are several breeds which actually do not bark. And if the dog does bark non-stop, it is not the dog's fault but the owner's fault for not training them properly.

I agree with Spore, you're just trolling which is why I will not respond to you anymore--I have more important things to do with my time.

 

[pitbulllady]

Here's something else that some of you will find interesting. According to current research, especially that conducted by canine biologist Dr. I. Lehr Brisbin, a personal acquaintance of mine, the old notion of cavemen going out and killing adult wolves and kidnapping helpless pups to bring home to the cave and "enslave", thus beginning the domestication of the dog, is simply untrue. It's a MYTH. In reality, the WOLVES chose US-THEY made the choice to start hanging around human encampments, because there was a mutual, symbiotic relationship between the two species. The wolves benefited because they got free meals of meat and bone scraps and human waste to eat, and the humans benefited because of the wolves' superior senses, and their tendency to alert the humans to the presence of intruders, and their ability to follow wounded game much better than any human trackers could. Human camps that had resident wolf packs were more likely to survive than those that didn't. In turn, the humans protected the wolves that did the best job of alerting against danger, which began the selective process of choosing barkers over non-barkers, and also selectively fed/protected wolves that were the best trackers. No one forced those wolves to live with early humans; they CHOSE to. Ditto for cats-they began living among humans because that's where rodents were most likely to be found. It was a mutual agreement among two species of carnivore.

I DO find it ironic that someone would go on such a diatribe against the process of domesticating animals, yet clearly has no problem with taking reptiles and inverts from the wild to bring into our homes. Once you start captive breeding of ANY species, and once changes to either inate behavior or appearance start to crop up, that is now a domesticated animal. It doesn't take many generations, either, as the now-famous Russian fur farm fox experiment proved. I would certainly consider many strains of Boa Constrictors, Corn Snakes, Ball Pythons and many other reptiles to be domesticated in the sense that they no longer look like their wild counterparts, anymore than a Whippet looks like the wolf it came from. With inverts, being less-complex, those changes probably will not be as noticeable, if at all, but I would be willing to bet that if someone did a detailed genetic study of captive Brachypelmas vs. those still found in the wild, some notable differences at the genetic level would show up, which would mean that our B. smithis and B. vagans are, for all practical intent and purposes, domesticated animals.

pitbulllady

 

[JColt]

My Boxer has been the best! He is a big clown and sweet and friendly - Unless you grab one of the family and he makes Cujo look like a puppy! Loves kids and is very gentle with the smallest kids. Brings injured animals to me and gently drops them into my hand. If someones lurking outside he scares the hell out of them with one "woof" Potty trained quickly and loves kitties too! My little springer was attacked by a rottweiler a few yrs back and Boxer tore into it like a demon. I couldnt believe it was same dog. When it was over he ran to the springer and started licking her and wouldnt leave her side. Poor guy is 13 now and going deaf

 

[dtknow]

Sure. Herps and Inverts.

Ok, inverts we can leave out. But what herps? Their are many domesticated herps around as well. And unlike dogs, domesticated herps are really no better than their wild counterparts.

 

[pitbulllady]

PB Lady: Dogs will NEVER become illegal. The government's number one concern is the economy. Dogs are ABSOLUTELY perfect for the economy. They draw in money by the 100's of millions a year. Look at tobacco and alcohol, there are groups and commercials against it every where. Alcohol and tobbaco draw in enough money to be ignored by the government. Other exotics not so much money so the government is free to hate those and use scare tactics against them. I've been around wolves, they are nothing like dogs. You're probably talking about dog and wolf mixes. Why should hair shedding be an issue? There is no reason to keep them indoors anyway, the obvious exception being vet visits.
crpy: There is nothing that a dog can do that technology can't. The only reason some still rely on dogs is that dogs are cheaper than the technology and more fun to use.

I'm not talking about wolf-dog mixes, kid. I kept and maintained a pack of pure wolves, along with Carolina Dogs, New Guinea Singing Dogs and real Akita Inu as part of a comparitive canine behavioral study in completing my Masters in Biology. I KNOW DOGS, and I KNOW WOLVES! My experiences are not based on some stupid romanticized notion of the noble wolf as some etherial, god-like being, far superior to man and man's creations, since they're not based on any hatred of Homo sapiens or of domesticated animals, as your views obviously are.

Technology can't love you. Technology cannot give comfort to a lonely old person or sick child. Technology pales in comparison to millions of years of evolution that went into the dog before it was known as a dog, that cannot be erased. Nobody asked, in starting this thread, whether or not a sterile, cold machine would be better than a dog. The original poster wanted to know what kind of DOG, as in D-O-G, NOT a freaking MACHINE, would be best suited for his purpose. For a person who admittedly hates dogs, and all domesticated animals, and probably from what I can read between those transparent lines, hates humans as well, to answer with their worthless opinion of the matter is like a PETA vegan trying to tell someone which cut of steak to choose from a restaurant menu, after all. Of what use would be the recommendations made by someone who finds the whole notion of eating meat to be abhorant, for someone who obviously wants to eat a steak and wants to know which one tastes the best? NONE, obviously.

pitbulllady