Considering getting a P. Metallica.. Thoughts?

[BorisTheSpider]

I appreciate your opinion but I'm entitled to mine.... If you're new to the hobby and you want a certain T then why must you wait a few years dabbling in more docile ones you have no real passion for? I say go for it! Do research and keep them right experience doesn't come into it....

Would you feel this way if this was a forum for viper enthusiasts ? Or skydiving fans ? Granted that is taking examples to the extreme but a newbie and an OW are a bad combo . When old timers warn people about getting advanced Ts it is partly because they don't want to see someone take a hit that could be medically significant . The other reason is that it doesn't take much to get city or local government to decide that people keeping those "dangerous" tarantulas is a bad idea . One child in the hospital and a a story on the local news is all it takes to get parents group demanding legal action . That's @Poec54 concern . He is looking out for the hobby .

 

[Shampain88]

Would you feel this way if this was a forum for viper enthusiasts ? Or skydiving fans ? Granted that is taking examples to the extreme but a newbie and an OW are a bad combo . When old timers warn people about getting advanced Ts it is partly because they don't want to see someone take a hit that could be medically significant . The other reason is that it doesn't take much to get city or local government to decide that people keeping those "dangerous" tarantulas is a bad idea . One child in the hospital and a a story on the local news is all it takes to get parents group demanding legal action . That's @Poec54 concern . He is looking out for the hobby .

I don't want to see or hear about anyone being bit but it's going to happen to certain people regardless of the genus... I don't think it's good for the hobby to alienate Poecilitherea as if they're monsters that only the grey haired keeper can handle....

 

[bryverine]

I'm not saying experience with fast, defensive T's is a bad thing lol but how does one gain that experience?

I bet you would never consider telling a first time snake owner to just go for that cobra or viper they really want because they lack experience. [Dang... @BorisTheSpider beat me to it!]

I think gaining experience with "slow" tarantulas (I've still seen my B. smithi put the pedal to the metal) gives an understanding of basic T behavior: how they feed, how to clean without worry of escapes or biting (much ), and just be comfortable around them.

Then go with more nervous ones like C. cyanopubescens or P. irminia that can be fast/bitey things without the punch of an OW. Do a few cage transfers, do some maintenance, and give it time to possibly witness some cranky attitude and teleportation.

Then by the time one would get an OW arboreal tarantula, you at least have an intermediate understanding of how they MIGHT react.

We're talking about animals each and every one different in their behaviours...

Sure, but how often do you see people (who aren't trying to prove that they're "da man" on youtube ) holding an OBT, poecs, or a lividum on their face? They have that nasty reputation because they have EARNED IT.

Like you said earlier though, it really is the owners decision. I am an empathetic person, so I don't like to see people get hurt but if you want a lividum as your first tarantula so you can handle it, nobody can stop you.

 

[Toxoderidae]

I don't want to see or hear about anyone being bit but it's going to happen to certain people regardless of the genus... I don't think it's good for the hobby to alienate Poecilitherea as if they're monsters that only the grey haired keeper can handle....

Its not "Oh you're going to be bit regardless" Its you should know not to get an advanced species early on. I brought up eventually getting a Copperhead to users like @Poec54 and he and @viper69 explained how wrong I was about their venom, and how much more dangerous it would be compared to even the worst T bite. I was one of the people who jumped up and got OW quickly, and now I advocate against that very idea. There must be a reason why, and its because its a bad, and irresponsible in most cases decision.

 

[BorisTheSpider]

I don't want to see or hear about anyone being bit but it's going to happen to certain people regardless of the genus... I don't think it's good for the hobby to alienate Poecilitherea as if they're monsters that only the grey haired keeper can handle....

It's not a question of alienation , it's a question of education . Does a person have the necessary understanding to properly care for that species while ensuring that they aren't risking either their well being or that of the tarantula . If a collector wants a certain species then they are probably going to get a specimen whether or not they are ready for one . Please don't take advice from one of us "grey haired keepers" as an attempt to question your ability to properly care for and deal with owning OW tarantulas . Just be aware that although you might be more then ready to deal with hazards of owning an OW , the newbie that you suggest go get one might not be .

 

[BorisTheSpider]

Its not "Oh you're going to be bit regardless" Its you should know not to get an advanced species early on. I brought up eventually getting a Copperhead to users like @Poec54 and he and @viper69 explained how wrong I was about their venom, and how much more dangerous it would be compared to even the worst T bite. I was one of the people who jumped up and got OW quickly, and now I advocate against that very idea. There must be a reason why, and its because its a bad, and irresponsible in most cases decision.

I remember that thread . Copperheads are beautiful IMO , but man that is one nasty ass bite .

 

[Poec54]

pokies are not aggressive generally so where this superior attitude that only grey haired keepers can rear them and noobs will be destroyed is ridiculous! Learning, research and hands on experience are the ONLY tools we have...

Defensiveness is only one part of the formula (no tarantula is aggressive). The issues with Poecs are venom, speed, and agility. Few beginners are prepared for the consequences of a large panicked Poecilotheria that suddenly runs out of it's cage. Then it is not only the spider owner's issue, but everyone in the house may be involved if the spider can't quickly be caught. Have you read bite reports? Have the people you live with? The only 'superior attitude' here is yours that thinks that jumping in the deep end is the best to learn. The best way to learn how to deal with escapes is to have an adult Poec loose in the house for a few days?

 

[Trenor]

Would you feel this way if this was a forum for viper enthusiasts ? Or skydiving fans ?

This isn't even the same thing so it's kinda irreverent. Like saying insert X dangerous thing here to distract from the point. It's not that so how they would feel doesn't matter.

One child in the hospital and a a story on the local news is all it takes to get parents group demanding legal action .

This is also the same thing. Almost anything you do in a lot of hobbies from rock climbing to diving to bungee jumping could end up the exact same way.

I bet you would never consider telling a first time snake owner to just go for that cobra or viper they really want because they lack experience. [Dang... @BorisTheSpider beat me to it!]
Sure, but how often do you see people (who aren't trying to prove that they're "da man" on youtube ) holding an OBT, poecs, or a lividum on their face? They have that nasty reputation because they have EARNED IT.

Like you said earlier though, it really is the owners decision. I am an empathetic person, so I don't like to see people get hurt but if you want a lividum as your first tarantula so you can handle it, nobody can stop you.

This is along the same lines. Just because one person (or many) is irresponsible with an OW doesn't mean someone else will be if they get one right off or 10 Ts down the road. That has more to do with how responsible the individual is (and how well informed) not how many Ts they have owned. You can do dumb things after getting your 20th T (most of the people in the vids you see have quite a few) just as easily as you could with your 1st one. So in that respect I don't think this presents a valid argument either.

I think gaining experience with "slow" tarantulas (I've still seen my B. smithi put the pedal to the metal) gives an understanding of basic T behavior: how they feed, how to clean without worry of escapes or biting (much ), and just be comfortable around them.

Then go with more nervous ones like C. cyanopubescens or P. irminia that can be fast/bitey things without the punch of an OW. Do a few cage transfers, do some maintenance, and give it time to possibly witness some cranky attitude and teleportation.

Then by the time one would get an OW arboreal tarantula, you at least have an intermediate understanding of how they MIGHT react.

I do agree with this as I stated above. This method does make it easier to become at ease with tarantulas. It is easy to get in over your head in this hobby. Being informed and honest with yourself and your abilities so you don't end up in a bad way is always good. I got OW Ts relativity early and with research/care/responsibility I've done well with them. I didn't get them before understanding what they are capable of and what they could do. Someone on a message board asking what Ts they should start out with is clearly not knowledgeable enough to know the dangers that an OW T presents and as such I don't think the OW T suggestion is a good fit.

 

[Shampain88]

It's not a question of alienation , it's a question of education . Does a person have the necessary understanding to properly care for that species while ensuring that they aren't risking either their well being or that of the tarantula . If a collector wants a certain species then they are probably going to get a specimen whether or not they are ready for one . Please don't take advice from one of us "grey haired keepers" as an attempt to question your ability to properly care for and deal with owning OW tarantulas . Just be aware that although you might be more then ready to deal with hazards of owning an OW , the newbie that you suggest go get one might not be .

I don't mean offence to anyone regarding "grey haired keepers" lol I went from G.Porteri to C.Meridionalis in the space of a fortnight then H.Lividum, OBT pamphs and pokies... I love to learn and my experience with them is invaluable tbh... It makes me chuckle that a Sun Tiger was mentioned earlier as a more noob friendly T! lmao What's the difference?

 

[Trenor]

Defensiveness is only one part of the formula (no tarantula is aggressive). The issues with Poecs are venom, speed, and agility. Few beginners are prepared for the consequences of a large panicked Poecilotheria that suddenly runs out of it's cage. Then it is not only the spider owner's issue, but everyone in the house may be involved if the spider can't quickly be caught. Have you read bite reports? Have the people you live with?

I agree there are a lot of better ways to learn these things without adding OW Ts to the mix.

 

[EulersK]

I don't want to see or hear about anyone being bit but it's going to happen to certain people regardless of the genus... I don't think it's good for the hobby to alienate Poecilitherea as if they're monsters that only the grey haired keeper can handle....

Not just Poecilotheria. Chilobrachys, Ceratogyrus, Hysterocrates, Stromatopelma...

It's not about gray haired enthusiast keeping these genera. It's about greenhorns keeping them. In my opinion, just a year or two of keeping is needed before OW's should be attempted, so long as that hobbyist has done the appropriate research. An OW tarantula is always a bad idea for a new hobbyist. Always. Does that mean that all cases will end badly? Of course not, that's not the point.

 

[Poec54]

I don't want to see or hear about anyone being bit but it's going to happen to certain people regardless of the genus... I don't think it's good for the hobby to alienate Poecilitherea as if they're monsters that only the grey haired keeper can handle....

No one's saying that and you know it. For most people new to the hobby, getting used to keeping a large hairy spider is a big step. Adding to that the fact that it could send them to the emergency room if they make one small miscalculation isn't something they should also have to deal with. The hobby isn't about adrenaline rushes. It's about safely keeping the animals without ever being bitten.

 

[BorisTheSpider]

This isn't even the same thing so it's kinda irreverent. Like saying insert X dangerous thing here to distract from the point

Irreverent means showing a lack of respect . Irrelevant means not pertaining to . That's why I said . . . .

Granted that is taking examples to the extreme

I was exaggerating the point thus making it relevant

 

[EulersK]

There was a thread recently about an inexperienced keeper rehousing an OW tarantula (I believe it was H. lividum). The spider bolted, the keeper was startled, and it resulted the lid being dropped onto the spider. It unfortunately lost two legs, but it could have been much worse. That is a prime example of what we're talking about. It takes a long time to get used to how these creatures move, and an equally long time to quell the human instinct of jumping like that keeper did. It's not only a matter of venom, it's a matter of not knowing how to handle these creatures.

It's the reason so many people suggest getting a Psalmopoeus as a crash course on OW. They're fast and often skittish, but don't have the venom that most OW's do. That's not to say you'd want to get bit by one, but you get my point. There is no replacing experience, period. The good news is that "experience" doesn't translate to several years.

 

[Trenor]

Irreverent means showing a lack of respect . Irrelevant means not pertaining to .

Whew, thanks for catching my typo. Good thing you knew what I meant.

Irreverent means showing a lack of respect . Irrelevant means not pertaining to . That's why I said . . . .
I was exaggerating the point thus making it relevant

I got that, my point was you could have easily made your point without all the extra exaggeration. Skewing the discussion by pointing to unrelated things IMO didn't help make the point any more valid.

 

[Trenor]

The spider bolted, the keeper was startled, and it resulted the lid being dropped onto the spider. It unfortunately lost two legs, but it could have been much worse. That is a prime example of what we're talking about. It takes a long time to get used to how these creatures move, and an equally long time to quell the human instinct of jumping like that keeper did.

To be fair though this could have just as easily happened with a NW T as well. It was the movement that startled the in experienced keeper. Not the venom.

However, removing the more potent venom from the mix does reduce what you have to worry about.

 

[EulersK]

To be fair though this could have just as easily happened with a NW T as well. It was the movement that startled the in experienced keeper. Not the venom.

However, removing the more potent venom from the mix does reduce what you have to worry about.

That was actually partly my point. But OW's tend to more skittish, as you know.

I don't know about you, but I certainly treat my OW's differently than my NW's. I still get a minor case of sweaty palms when doing a rehouse on adult pokies, but not at all on A. geniculata. Even though the latter is far more likely to bite, they don't make me nervous at all. It's all about the venom.

 

[bryverine]

This is along the same lines. Just because one person (or many) is irresponsible with an OW doesn't mean someone else will be if they get one right off or 10 Ts down the road. That has more to do with how responsible the individual is (and how well informed) not how many Ts they have owned.

My last point isn't about experience. If it was, then yes, it would be irrelevant. It's about common attitudes of OW with a humorous spin. The post I had referred to said (paraphrase) "each tarantula is different". While this is true on a "individual quirks" basis, in general, an OBT is defensive; a poec is fast, unpredictable, and potent; and a female lividum is a blue ball of cranky.


On the issue of comparing snakes to tarantulas, I think they are completly relevant examples.

Both are animals with varied venom potencies.
Both have species with more defensive/aggressive behaviors.
Both have improved competency with actual handling of less dangerous species.

I'd submit that corn snakes are like Brachypelma, Grammostola, insert common NW terrestrial here.
OW tarantulas are then easy to compare to those venomous snakes referred to earlier.

No, the way they act is not exactly the same. No tarantulas can't kill you. Yet, the principals of gaining experience is the same.


You're a math guy, I imagine it this way: sure someone can learn calculus with only some algebra under their belt, but it'll be hell. I wasn't so hot with Calc 1 so it made Calc 2 very difficult. Once I relearned (or got experience with) the basics, it all was MUCH easier.

It's the principle of experience that can be applied across multiple fields from math to snakes to tarantulas.

 

[Ceymann]

You can be the most educated, expert on Ts, but none of that matters when it comes to avoiding bites or potential injury to the spider if you can't remain calm with them. Like what happened with my bite, if I were to have just remained calm after it shot up my arm, I doubt I would have been bit, but nope, it startled me and my "oh crap" reaction was to grab it and get it off me. I got nailed and unfortunately squished it's abdomen when i grabbed it, killing it, my boss was kinda pissed. I felt terrible about it, on top of a very painful bite.
Ive worked on my nerves over the years since via exposure- working in pet stores with numerous successful OW transfers handing blue ring octopus with nets, catching loxosceles reclusa in my offices garage, handling numerous agressive snakes and reptiles. Now I believe if a pokie shot up my arm again, I'd.able to keep my cool and calmly get it back in its enclosure without incident.

Takes time, experience and most importantly the ability to remain calm.

 

[Trenor]

That was actually partly my point. But OW's tend to more skittish, as you know.

I don't know about you, but I certainly treat my OW's differently than my NW's. I still get a minor case of sweaty palms when doing a rehouse on adult pokies, but not at all on A. geniculata. Even though the latter is far more likely to bite, they don't make me nervous at all. It's all about the venom.

Fair enough, though I approach rehousing with caution regardless of the type because when working with any T that much can lead to issues. Some of my NW Ts are flighty and I have to work harder with them during a rehousing. The only T I'm really at ease around in safely in its home.