ATTN: Poecilotheria owner, breeder or dealer.

viper69

ArachnoGod
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Dec 8, 2006
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Well to be fair in that article a sex change was reported due to bacterial infection- a type of stress on a physiological system. I'd be surprised if the authors of this paper meant stress as in the normal way people in the hobby think of stress.

Lastly they didn't claim a gender change, they suggested it as a possibilty
 

advan

oOOo
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Well to be fair in that article a sex change was reported due to bacterial infection- a type of stress on a physiological system. I'd be surprised if the authors of this paper meant stress as in the normal way people in the hobby think of stress.

Lastly they didn't claim a gender change, they suggested it as a possibilty
"we hypothesise captivity related sex change due to stress as this was observed in three more similar individuals observed in captivity in WILD in 2000–2001(Sanjay Molur pers. obs.)"

Sounds like their best guess was because of stress, not just a possibility. Notice they didn't reference back to Rowley 2004 with their hypothesis?

Yep, abdomen size and overall dorsal "look" is the way the "experts" sex spiders. How would you feel about someone selling you a "sexed" female this way? ;P
 

iamthegame06

Arachnosquire
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Feb 24, 2013
Messages
102
Did your questions get answered? At the minimum every hobbyist which could something such as:

I have owned 37 animals from the 11 species listed in the petition. All of these animals were captive bred. I would like to request that captive breeding and interstate sales not be regulated should these species be listed under the Endangered Species Act.

Short, simple, factual.

IF a person wanted to add: "In my 2 years in the hobby, having read field reports, I agree these species should be ESA listed. But I also have never seen wild caught individuals nor do I think the hobby has any impact on wild animals."

That is an opinion based on experiences within the hobby. Remember it's VERY important to have piles of information on captive breeding so that "experts" who may or may not try to vilify our hobby are undercut by facts and numbers.
alright! i got it! i will do my part! i really hope they dont ban these pokies! thank you so much for the info!
 

pocock1899

Arachnosquire
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Sep 11, 2008
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84
The purpose of the public comments is manyfold. Primarily though, it's so that ANYONE can give their 2cents.

Hundreds, or (hopefully) thousands of short posts may not say much individually, but they speak very loudly in their numbers. They say that this is a large, thriving hobby, composed of individuals that are aware of the threats to their animals and their hobby. They say that we are paying attention.

On the other hand, 17 comments (and one "testing") will tell the government that very few people are concerned about hobby and this genus.

If this genus gets removed from interstate trade here in the US, it won't be the fault of the goverment. It'll be apathy on the part of the hobby.

Also, as Advan posted earlier, this was triggered by a Petition submitted by Wild Earth Guardians. There is absolutely nothing to keep them or any other group (or individual) from doing the exact same thing with Avicularia, Brachypelma, Theraphosa, Monocentropus, ...etc.
If USFWS is going to list Poecilotheria, at least the precedent can be set of allowing captive raised spiders to be exempt from bans on interstate trade and commerce. That means the listing would have very little impact on the hobby.

Otherwise, any group that's dedicated to erasing this hobby can just start throwing out Petitions and hoping that some will stick.
 
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LordWaffle

Arachnobaron
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
455
Getting very close to the closing period. Get those comments in! Even if you don't know much about pokies, say what you do know. Reiteration is not a problem, fifty different people saying the same thing is better than one person saying it. Weigh in!
 

freedumbdclxvi

Arachnoprince
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May 28, 2012
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If this genus gets removed from interstate trade here in the US, it won't be the fault of the goverment. It'll be apathy on the part of the hobby.
I absolutely disagree. One need only to look at the reptile hobby to see that the active participation by hobbyists in attempting to stem bans doesn't work. Sign and get involved - I did - but let's stop pretending the "hobby" will be at fault if this goes through.
 

stewstew8282

Arachnoknight
Joined
Jun 16, 2011
Messages
166
"we hypothesise captivity related sex change due to stress as this was observed in three more similar individuals observed in captivity in WILD in 2000–2001(Sanjay Molur pers. obs.)"

Sounds like their best guess was because of stress, not just a possibility. Notice they didn't reference back to Rowley 2004 with their hypothesis?

Yep, abdomen size and overall dorsal "look" is the way the "experts" sex spiders. How would you feel about someone selling you a "sexed" female this way? ;P
im going to stress all my males into becoming females...:sarcasm:
 
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kevp

Arachnosquire
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Jan 24, 2014
Messages
65
respecting wild resources.

Hi there and thanks for posting this article, the thing is the t keeping hobby has come on leaps and bounds in the last 5 years and if certain species are taken from the wild then there simply won't be any left for the hobby to enjoy. Clearly the way forward is captive breeding programmes like they do with tropical fish.. Banning species being taken from the wild can surely be a good thing. Interesting article that sheads light. Thanks. Excuse me if I'm wrong on this. Its us/man with deforestation that will cause a decline in many species.
 
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esotericman

Arachnoknight
Old Timer
Joined
Nov 15, 2004
Messages
298
Once again, what has occurred with reptiles has nothing to do with Poecilotheria. This is about the Endangered Species Act, not other issues. I do not know how to explain the difference between black and white better than that. Both are colors, both issues were under USFWS, this is about ESA that was reported to be about public safety and invasive species. Not the samey samey.

USARK will be joining in the request for information this week as well. Chime in, please!
 

esotericman

Arachnoknight
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Nov 15, 2004
Messages
298
I emailed the helpdesk and was told the "review" process is delayed, but the comments are being recorded. DC has been under some serious weather, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to crush those servers. USARK has also jumped in on spreading the word. It's good to see folks speaking up in the last week!
 

freedumbdclxvi

Arachnoprince
Joined
May 28, 2012
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1,430
Yes. I contacted usark a couple weeks ago regarding this. And I have addressed the differences between the reptile hi by and this. Once again, the situatiin parallels what is happening there. People can deny it all they like or try and blame us hobbyists if something happens, but it win't be hobbyist apathy or lack of info if this goes through. Once again, usfw has proven solid info does not outweigh the vocal opposition of groups like the hsus.
 

JZC

Arachnobaron
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
421
They restrict this hobby, and they show their complete and utter ignorance. Stop this!!!!!!!!!
 

LordWaffle

Arachnobaron
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
455
Hi there and thanks for posting this article, the thing is the t keeping hobby has come on leaps and bounds in the last 5 years and if certain species are taken from the wild then there simply won't be any left for the hobby to enjoy. Clearly the way forward is captive breeding programmes like they do with tropical fish.. Banning species being taken from the wild can surely be a good thing. Interesting article that sheads light. Thanks. Excuse me if I'm wrong on this. Its us/man with deforestation that will cause a decline in many species.
You are absolutely correct that captive breeding is incredibly important. Especially to the species that are listed as critically endangered (like P. metallica, a species which only has a habitat of 39 square miles). The issues with this potential policy in the US are as follows:

1) India already has put in place strict guidelines regarding deforestation and habitat destruction for the purpose of capturing Pokies. A US regulation would do nothing to assist in their conservation efforts.

2) Genus poecilotheria is exclusively captive bred here in the states. I haven't seen a wild-caught Pokie for sale in years. At this point we have already created a self-sustaining captive breeding situation. The likely repercussions of this listing in the US would be that interstate trade would be banned. Meaning, I can keep all the pokies I currently have, I could even sell to people in my state (Nebraska); but, if I wanted to send a mature male to Oregon to pair with someone's female, or if I wanted to purchase one of the 11 species on that list in Chicago and bring it home to Omaha, I could not legally do that. If I decided to move from Omaha to Seattle, I would not be able to bring any of the species on this list with me. Populated states like California would likely continue to have these species readily available, but most of the Midwest would end up having their captive populations dwindle and disappear. All for a regulation that does quite literally nothing to support the species that are losing their habitat to expanding human culture and other habitat-destroying events.

If we were in India, this would be a whole different discussion, but we are not. (I see you're in Wales, so this wouldn't affect you either). As it stands, the hobby (at least stateside) has no impact on the wild populations of any of genus Poecilotheria.
 

Galapoheros

ArachnoGod
Old Timer
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
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8,991
I heard about this from somebody in a pet store a few days ago. What if somebody just copied and pasted some comments from this thread, or a link to it? I considered that it might get crazy like this. There are NGOs out there that are motivated to keep every single organism in it's natural habitat. What they do is chip away at their goal, slow and persistent. How far will it go(?)
 

pitbulllady

Arachnoking
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Joined
May 1, 2004
Messages
2,290
I hate to say it, but I TOLD YOU SO! I've been warning for years now that more and more regulations restricting the sale, importation and ownership of tarantulas and other arachnids, if not banning them outright, are coming, at state and Federal levels. People have laughed at the mere idea that the same folks who want to eliminate "exotic" animals, many breeds/types of dogs, require mandatory sterilization of domesticated pets, etc., are coming after their spiders. Trust me-it WILL NOT stop with Pokies, either.

pitbulllady
 

Keith B

Arachnobaron
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
341
Yep. Nothing new here. The ignorant and careless destroy their native species (and that includes ignorant americans too), and when the smart try to preserve them by any means possible like captive breeding and distribution, here come the ignorant and careless again to make sure they destroy it for sure. Simply the ignorant money-suckers that run this government finishing the job for the ignorant citizens of all countries worldwide. I kept telling people 'Idiocracy' wasn't funny, that it was actually a horror film. Scared the hell out of me, cause it made sense...and now look. Might as well just dump a garbage avalanche on the remaining Poecilotheria habitats right now if this passes..
 

esotericman

Arachnoknight
Old Timer
Joined
Nov 15, 2004
Messages
298
There are four days left to comment. Currently there are just over 120 comments, most of which I believe were generated by the USARK sharing. Please take a second to comment, even if it's to say "Please allow for interstate sales should these species be ESA listed."
 
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