ATTN: Poecilotheria owner, breeder or dealer.

gumby

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
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Feb 15, 2006
Messages
1,657
I think this is happening because the government is loosing control of everything else they were trying to ban so they are looking for small victories any place they think they can get them. If we put up any kind of struggle they will give up in my opinion.
 

esotericman

Arachnoknight
Old Timer
Joined
Nov 15, 2004
Messages
298
In case you missed this, I'm bumping it up. The USFWS site is currently down, but at last look only 10 people had commented.

For the record, if you bothered to read the post, there was a third party petition to list these species under the Endangered Species Act. The USFWS is only following the protocol when petitioned to ESA list anything. Anyone can petition the USFWS to list organisms under ESA, by the way. This was not a move by the USFWS to make money, hurt our hobby or take away access. The organization is only following the laws. If you'd like to see who did petition the USFWS, they are here:

http://www.defenders.org/
 

advan

oOOo
Staff member
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Apr 11, 2010
Messages
2,041
So it's okay for government to take money from corporate business to build buildings and cut down and destroy the natural habitat of animals like lions and tigers?
But it's not okay for us to breed and protect species as poecs in our homemade environment ?
Wow government that's a statement that deserves a slap. Not a clap


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The government is not making money off of the hobby, which means they want it stopped.
I think this is happening because the government is loosing control of everything else they were trying to ban so they are looking for small victories any place they think they can get them. If we put up any kind of struggle they will give up in my opinion.
There was an official petition by the WildEarth Guardians and because of this petition the Government has to respond. If you are going to get mad at anybody it should be the group that sent in the petition without enough data or field studies to warrant the listing. Whining about the government is going to do nothing to help us hobbyists. Actually submitting a respectful, coherent comment on all the CB Poecilotheria you've kept and bred will help show we are not dependent on WC spiders. The main point for our comments is to show them the pet trade is not the issue with the endangerment of these spiders. If you want to whine about the Government, go update your Facebook status.
 

crawley07

Arachnopeon
Joined
Dec 27, 2010
Messages
38
No one cares about this reports brother my point is that the government wants to know the smallest things about our spiders????
But yet they take money from business owners I mean major business owners to cut down trees and natural habitats of these beautiful creatures ... Do understand my point that I made earlier no one is whining about anything and don't be upset unless your a part of government


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Alltheworld601

Arachnoangel
Joined
Jul 27, 2012
Messages
791
No one cares about this reports brother my point is that the government wants to know the smallest things about our spiders????
But yet they take money from business owners I mean major business owners to cut down trees and natural habitats of these beautiful creatures ... Do understand my point that I made earlier no one is whining about anything and don't be upset unless your a part of government


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Am thinking that this guy forgot how to READ somewhere between the last few comments on this post.

The "Man" doesn't care about your spiders. Someone petitioned the USFWS for protection for Poecis. When that happens, they have to collect data. There's no government official sitting on his boat counting your spiders.

The OP asked us to provide a number of how many we've owned or bred. That's it. Take off the tinfoil hat and either do something constructive, or find another thread.
 
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freedumbdclxvi

Arachnoprince
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May 28, 2012
Messages
1,430
Alltheworld601 said:
The OP asked us to provide a number of how many we've owned or bred. That's it. Take off the tinfoil hat and either do something constructive, or find another thread.
I think the people telling others to calm down and not react in a negatove way need to get off their high horses. The reptile hobby has been under attack for some time, and it seems the focus is shifting now to other "fringe" pets. A number of us here have seen our reptile hobby affected, and we can get understandably upset when it seems that yet another group of animals is now under the microscope. By all means, be coherant and calm in the official responses, but to act like we have no reason to be upset? Please.
 

NGLepine

Arachnosquire
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Messages
91
Maybe this is a call for mass breeding and maybe a 2 yr price drop to really get the numbers out there. Mass reproduction and reported numbers of what we as owners and breeders might help a bit. Yes, I understand it hurts the pocketbook, but in long run it'll save.

Think, if they become severely endangered, and prices raise "due to cost and supply on rarities" this would encourage WC specimens to cut costs... Being detrimental to the hobby as well the natural existence of our beauties!

Just a thought.
 

advan

oOOo
Staff member
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Apr 11, 2010
Messages
2,041
I think the people telling others to calm down and not react in a negatove way need to get off their high horses. The reptile hobby has been under attack for some time, and it seems the focus is shifting now to other "fringe" pets. A number of us here have seen our reptile hobby affected, and we can get understandably upset when it seems that yet another group of animals is now under the microscope. By all means, be coherant and calm in the official responses, but to act like we have no reason to be upset? Please.
This ESA listing(if it goes through) is to help protect the species listed, it has nothing to do with the constrictors that were banned. They were not banned because of them being ESA listed. Considering you are in south Florida, you know what sparked that banning. A refresher. >> http://www.fws.gov/injuriouswildlife/pdf_files/final_environmental_asessment.pdf

I'm not quite sure why people would be upset if it all works out to where the hobby's CB spiders are not prohibited and the WC spiders are banned. If anything, it will bring awareness to the spiders which may eventually bring good things down the road for the future of the species in the wild.
 

freedumbdclxvi

Arachnoprince
Joined
May 28, 2012
Messages
1,430
I am not saying the ESA is why the constrictors were listed. What I am saying is the politicians listened to the most vocal group despite the evidence the keepers, breeders, hobbyists and scientists presented. I *don't* have faith the USFWS will do what's right. Would it be amazing if they banned importing of wc individuals and kept captive borns legal? Yep. But I doubt that will be the case. And as for being in So Fla, the way the media sells it, I should be fighting Nile monitors and Burms all the way to my car. Yet they aren't there trying to kill me. Overblown hype, byt that's another argument.
 

ClosetCollector

Arachnosquire
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
99
"Please remember this is a process, one which requires INFORMATION and FACTS. This is not a form letter equating to an opinion poll, this is not a vote for or against the ESA listing of these species. Only facts are beneficial in any way".

Of 25 comments made to this petition, one (1) lists the suggested information,the rest is mindless prattle and opinion. This is sad, there are so many passionate hobbyists, breeders and keepers out there! Does the privileged of keeping this beautiful species mean so little that there are only 25 comments on a petition that could effect all of us? Complaining, arguing and pointing fingers about who did what and why or how, will do absolutely nothing.

If you keep one, make a comment apply all the intellect wasted here complaining and contradict the uneducated information provided in the petition! Take a stand against the "man" "the ESA" and any other ignorant individual or group that wishes to take from us arguably the most beautiful species in the hobby!!

If you breed them do the same^ do you know a breeder, let them know, ask them to make a comment. All comments may be made anonymously, and are much needed. They need to understand the numbers of these species survive due to captive breeding programs and the hobby is effectively ensuring the existence of these beautiful creatures, not depleting it.

Heck, I don't even own one and I will comment what facts I can provide.... (hoping to have the ability to keep one someday)

Here is an example of one of the comments made: Word for Word.......

"Should be restriction of their import/export if they are endangered.We have plenty of captive bred breeding taking place-im sure many in the hobby would be glad to help replentish the populations in the wild. How about you start restricting the destruction of their natural habitat. Doesnt do any good to place them in endangered status and destroy their homes.Duh-"

Hopefully, the future of this species in the hobby isn't riding on information like this guy provided....
 
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iamthegame06

Arachnosquire
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Messages
102
alright, so after reading (well, skimming lol) through the comments im still confused..i just want to know if they're gonna ban CB pokies or not? and if they are, what can i do to help stop them from banning these species?
 

ClosetCollector

Arachnosquire
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
99
There is more than one.
I stand corrected, 2 that provide numbers and breeding information. Which is what I refer to when I say suggested info based on the suggestions made in the announcement...


"In short, to demonstrate our hobby does not require wild caught individuals to maintain it, we suggest hobbyists to provide the following information on a species by species basis if possible:

1) Numbers of total animals you have owned of the concerned species (using the current USFWS nomenclature).
2) Total number of breeding attempts you have made per species.
3) Total number successful eggsacs you have produced and total number of spiderlings produced.
4) Total monetary values associated with these species including sales, purchases, and maintenance/supplies."
 

catfishrod69

Arachnoemperor
Joined
Oct 1, 2010
Messages
4,402
I commented, providing the information, to the best of my knowledge, and what my short memory would allow me to provide. However i did put my personal opinion at the bottom :).
I stand corrected, 2 that provide numbers and breeding information. Which is what I refer to when I say suggested info based on the suggestions made in the announcement...


"In short, to demonstrate our hobby does not require wild caught individuals to maintain it, we suggest hobbyists to provide the following information on a species by species basis if possible:

1) Numbers of total animals you have owned of the concerned species (using the current USFWS nomenclature).
2) Total number of breeding attempts you have made per species.
3) Total number successful eggsacs you have produced and total number of spiderlings produced.
4) Total monetary values associated with these species including sales, purchases, and maintenance/supplies."
 

ClosetCollector

Arachnosquire
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
99
I commented, providing the information, to the best of my knowledge, and what my short memory would allow me to provide. However i did put my personal opinion at the bottom :).
Good!!! Once I figure out what exactly I want to say I will make a comment providing as much info as I can, but I also want to include deforestation facts as well as captive breeding statistics if I can find them, take no offence to my mindless prattle comments. I am speaking in generalized terms hence the sample comment I posted. This person likely meant well however, use of the on screen auto correct should have been utilized so at least keepers look literate and somewhat educated.... LOL
 

Heckapunchez

Arachnopeon
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Messages
14
This just proves that I need to make sure that I at least attempt to breed my females and get my current MM P. Regalis to someone responsible to do the same. I find this odd timing because my wife was just talking about how they're doing the similar thing to a particular species of Uromastyx that we have.
 

esotericman

Arachnoknight
Old Timer
Joined
Nov 15, 2004
Messages
298
alright, so after reading (well, skimming lol) through the comments im still confused..i just want to know if they're gonna ban CB pokies or not? and if they are, what can i do to help stop them from banning these species?
Did your questions get answered? At the minimum every hobbyist which could something such as:

I have owned 37 animals from the 11 species listed in the petition. All of these animals were captive bred. I would like to request that captive breeding and interstate sales not be regulated should these species be listed under the Endangered Species Act.

Short, simple, factual.

IF a person wanted to add: "In my 2 years in the hobby, having read field reports, I agree these species should be ESA listed. But I also have never seen wild caught individuals nor do I think the hobby has any impact on wild animals."

That is an opinion based on experiences within the hobby. Remember it's VERY important to have piles of information on captive breeding so that "experts" who may or may not try to vilify our hobby are undercut by facts and numbers.
 

esotericman

Arachnoknight
Old Timer
Joined
Nov 15, 2004
Messages
298
Two weeks to get those comments in. Recently an "expert" on the genus claimed an animal changed from female to male due to stress. This was a publication and in a "peer reviewed journal". Anyone who has raised and kept these species knows more than that "expert". I just hope the hobby demonstrates this.

If you do not believe me, read for yourself under "remarks":

http://threatenedtaxa.org/ZooPrintJournal/2013/August/o295626viii134630-4640.pdf
 

Keith B

Arachnobaron
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
341
Two weeks to get those comments in. Recently an "expert" on the genus claimed an animal changed from female to male due to stress. This was a publication and in a "peer reviewed journal". Anyone who has raised and kept these species knows more than that "expert". I just hope the hobby demonstrates this.

If you do not believe me, read for yourself under "remarks":

http://threatenedtaxa.org/ZooPrintJournal/2013/August/o295626viii134630-4640.pdf
WOW how preposterous.. thought to be female due to abdomen size.. some expert..
 
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