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ATTN: Poecilotheria owner, breeder or dealer.

Discussion in 'Tarantula Questions & Discussions' started by ClosetCollector, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. ClosetCollector

    ClosetCollector Arachnosquire

    Not sure if this is news to anyone or not but I felt compelled to share at my earliest convenience!!

    From the American Tarantula Society President...if you are a Poecilotheria owner, breeder or dealer, please read, share and participate:

    This is a request for facts concerning the economics, keeping and breeding of many Poecilotheria species to be submitted to the United State Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) regarding the Endangered Species Act (ESA) petition to list 11 species (P. fasciata; P. formosa; P. hanumavilasumica; P. metallica; P. miranda; P. ornata; P. pederseni; P. rufilata; P. smithi; P. striata; and P. subfusca). The petition can be reviewed at this link and is only concerned with those 11 species.

    goo.gl/wQNke2 or


    The Petition process for ESA listing includes a 90 day Public Comment period which ends February 3rd, 2014. The facts requested by the USFWS regarding ESA listing of these 11 species are quite specific. Please feel free to review what information is requested at the .pdf file link below. Opinions or commentary outside the requested information is not used and may be deleterious to our efforts to maintain Poecilotheria with our captive bred hobby.

    goo.gl/7oo4Q7 or


    In short, to demonstrate our hobby does not require wild caught individuals to maintain it, we suggest hobbyists to provide the following information on a species by species basis if possible:

    1) Numbers of total animals you have owned of the concerned species (using the current USFWS nomenclature).
    2) Total number of breeding attempts you have made per species.
    3) Total number successful eggsacs you have produced and total number of spiderlings produced.
    4) Total monetary values associated with these species including sales, purchases, and maintenance/supplies.

    By combining the requested information via the .pdf file with the below URL on “Tips for Submitting Effective Comments”, we can provide the best information available to the USFWS about our hobby. For those who are zoo personnel, arachnologists/entomologists, or biologists, please feel free to provide your expert commentary above and beyond that requested here.

    goo.gl/NysNcx or


    Comments should be made via the link below or to the physical address listed on the link below. This final link also provides a summary of the requested information. As a hobby, we can provide information on domestic populations, active breeding within the hobby which demonstrate no strains on the wild and native populations.

    goo.gl/IMv5ck or


    Please remember this is a process, one which requires INFORMATION and FACTS. This is not a form letter equating to an opinion poll, this is not a vote for or against the ESA listing of these species. Only facts are beneficial in any way. All comments may be reviewed here:

    goo.gl/1vhlgR or


    The ESA listing process and the impact on the US hobby could easily take five years. ESA listing of one or more of the 11 species could result in the cessation of all interstate travel of the species under review, effectively removing these species from the hobby. There is no possible way to predict what could happen, so it is our best interest to demonstrate responsible care and propagation of these priceless organisms.
    Please comment, even if no numbers of animals are reported, comments about maintaining ownership and sales matter. If you do nothing else, please go to the comments site and say something such as:
    “Regardless of ESA listing of one or more species, please provide for the exemption of captive bred animals from the possession and interstate sales regulation."

    Any questions regarding this request may be sent to poecilotheriaesa2014@gmail.com before the Febuary 3rd deadline. This is an informational email only, not a USFWS submission email.

    *Note to dealers: All comments are public record. Please provide information to your comfort level as sales can be a sensitive subject.

    *Professionals who would like to offer further input are invited to follow the requested information guidelines. It would be especially informative from those who have visited India or Sri Lanka and have firsthand accounts as current data is very limiting. Zoo personnel who know of active breeding of these species are also encouraged to provide that information.

    • Like Like x 15
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
    • Award Award x 1
  2. freedumbdclxvi

    freedumbdclxvi Arachnoprince

    So what you're saying is I need to buy more Poecis before they get messed over like the pythons and anacondas. Lovely. Comment added.
  3. viper69

    viper69 ArachnoGod Old Timer

    Someone posted the link the entire document not long ago. I find it absolutely ridiculous they want to limit ownership/exportation based on little scientific information. I had a discussion with a tarantula scientist who was in favor of protecting this genus, but was not in favor of this exact process the gov't is currently using to determine how they should be protected.

    This legislation does nothing to protect the real threat to this genus; the deforestation of the land by man.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 2
  4. BobGrill

    BobGrill Arachnoprince

    I'm gonna be ticked if I can't at least acquire a P. metallica before I die.
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. catfishrod69

    catfishrod69 Arachnoemperor

    What they need to do is put a ban on the amount of kids the natives are popping out, and then the tarantulas wont be going extinct.
    • Like Like x 17
    • Dislike Dislike x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  6. ClosetCollector

    ClosetCollector Arachnosquire

    Agreed, habitat destruction, is the main hazard for the species and many others in the area. Hobbyists, protect the existence of the species by breeding and only buying captive bred specimens.
    • Like Like x 5
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. From the bit I read it sounds like they're actually giving us as a hobby the chance to demonstrate that such extreme measures may not need to be taken. I think if enough of the breeders and long-term keepers respond, thoughtfully, and give good data in our favor, it will be fine.
    • Like Like x 3
  8. LordWaffle

    LordWaffle Arachnobaron

    More than just breeders and dealers should feel free to weigh in on this. Just state what you know for fact. Do you own one? More? Are they captive bred? (Obviously they are) The more information they have, even if it's reiterated over and over by different commenters, the better. We all want to see the habitat destruction stop, and te wild populations stabilize, but restricting interstate trade stateside hurts hobbyists and doesn't help the spiders. Were large amounts being exported here, it may be different; but it isn't.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. ClosetCollector

    ClosetCollector Arachnosquire


    I have just read the comments logged so far and if someone with half a brain and some experience doesn't step up for the hobby and advocate I have no doubt this species will be placed on the list and severely restricted for all of us.
  10. herpguy

    herpguy Arachnosquire

    The problem is that most, if not all, legislation such as this are not drafted by Zoologists (let alone hobbyists). For example in CT a few years back they made a law banning "canines and felines." Sounds fancy to a layman, but they didn't realize that technically bans all cats and dogs...
    It's good that somebody wants to protect these, it's just that a few minutes on Google can show that Poecilotheria are not taken from the wild.
    • Like Like x 1
  11. esotericman

    esotericman Arachnoknight Old Timer

    To list or not list is beyond what most hobbyists can comment on as they are not field biologists or other professionals with direct knowledge of the species up for listing. We are providing information to the USFWS which we are experts on, real numbers within the world wide hobby.

    There is a range of things which can result from Endangered Species Act listing of one or all of the species. In a "worst case scenario" all interstate movement of the animals would be illegal. This means large population states like California would probably see these species last for decades but in small population states where there may or may not be people breeding thus all animals would be illegal. In a "best case scenario" very little would change within the USA, although seeing WC animals ever again would be very unlikely. When was the last time anyone saw a wild caught Poecilotheria in the US? I saw one in 2001, I think. The price and source lead me to believe it was WC, but it a was also a P. regalis, which has a wide distribution and seems to be more tolerant of human's interference with the ecosystem.

    In any case, if the hobby could just demonstrate we are not a lump of smugglers which is how we're being portrayed it'll go a long way towards how the rules are written down the road. The assumption is that ESA listing makes them go away, and that just is not true, just look at other hobbies, from reptiles to fish to birds. The petition and many of the vocal "experts" say the hobby is the problem. The problem is that the hobby needs to show it produces thousands of these organisms yearly. If the hobby fails to do so, then it is assumable the hundreds sold on AB, facebook and via dealers must be WC. In this case, numbers and facts matter a great deal to overcome the bad press being spread by the media.

    If you don't want to read it all just click the link below and provide the following, and if you do not want to provide your name, do not:

    1) Numbers of total animals you have owned of the concerned species (using the current USFWS nomenclature).
    2) Total number of breeding attempts you have made per species.
    3) Total number successful eggsacs you have produced and total number of spiderlings produced.
    4) Total monetary values associated with these species including sales, purchases, and maintenance/supplies.



    • Like Like x 2
  12. freedumbdclxvi

    freedumbdclxvi Arachnoprince

    Breeders, long term keepers and biologists did the same thing with the large constrictors, and in the end usfws still ended up using extreme measures. (In fact, seems more are being listed this year.). I have little faith in usfws doing the right thing.
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. esotericman

    esotericman Arachnoknight Old Timer

    What is happening with constrictors is a Federal level problem and one handled by the USFWS, but it is NOT an Endangered Species Act regulation. We should be for being interactive with the government, even if we disagree with nearly everything it does. The two issues are different departments at USFWS, and have nothing to do with each other than comments about how the "Feds suck!".

    This is a shot at providing thousands of data points to show we do not rely on wild caught populations, thereby giving the one finger salute to those bodies who lobby to shut down exotic pets. Agree with the system or not, facts are facts and doing nothing only lends weight to overly vocal conservationist who think we are killing these animals off.

    Here is one person who will be asked to chime in on the topic:


    Manju Siliwal
    Location: Rameshwaram Island, India
    Research: Conservation and Status of Rameshwaram Parachute Spider, (Poecilotheria hanumavilasumica) in Southern India
    Species/Topic: Rameshwaram Parachute Spider (Poecilotheria hanumavilasumica)

    The genus Poecilotheria is popular in pet trade market of USA, UK, Europe and Hong Kong due to its striking colouration, aggressive nature, large and hairy body. After the inclusion of the genus Brachypelma in CITES, the pet trade appears to have shifted focus to Poecilotheria spp. from the Indian subcontinent, which is not protected under any law. Attempt to include a few species of Poecilotheria under CITES and the Indian Wildlife (Protection) Act was not successful due to lack of hard-core data. The study proposed is to collect information on population, breeding biology, behaviour, ecology, distribution, threats for Poecilotheria hanumavilasumica on Rameshwaram Island. This is an ideal study situation to understand changes in habitat quality and implications of harvest on arboreal tarantulas. This information will also help fill the gaps for crucial data in listing or not of the spider in CITES and the Indian Wildlife (Protection) Act.

    Anyone in the hobby for more than a few months know this is completely false, and this "comment period" for the USFWS is a shot to provide numbers demonstrating there are THOUSANDS of these animals in the world and none of them are wild caught.
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. freedumbdclxvi

    freedumbdclxvi Arachnoprince

    At no point did I say not to interact. What I said was, despite the info we provide and however true it is, it may end up amounting to nothing whatsoever. I would suggest in addition to commenting here, contacting your representative and advising them about this. Also, look into usark or grain. Not sure either have this on their radar, but it would behoove us to get them involved.
  15. herpguy

    herpguy Arachnosquire


    It really angers me to see things like this. One comment like this usually invalidates 1000 comments about hobbyists successfully breeding them in large quantities.
  16. viper69

    viper69 ArachnoGod Old Timer

    What a complete of crap. Gee last I checked there LOTS of Brachy's being bred........This woman is HIGHLY irresponsible in writing the statement about Brachy/pet trade shifting to Poecs.

    Here's a list of her pubs via Google at the bottom. There's an interesting article on P regalis, where she wrote the hobby knew more about the Ts than the experts in India and Sri Lanka haha, that's embarassing. I attached that section.


    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
    • Like Like x 3
  17. reunsch

    reunsch Arachnosquire

    So this only applies to the US, and not other countries, correct?
  18. esotericman

    esotericman Arachnoknight Old Timer

    That is correct, ESA regulation would impact only the USA which is why providing numbers of captive slings world wide may support more open regulations. Demonstrating no impact on wild animals or drive for smuggling is the main goal of requesting hobby numbers. Biologists and other experts will have quite different areas to comment upon beyond propagation.
    • Like Like x 1
  19. crawley07

    crawley07 Arachnopeon

    So it's okay for government to take money from corporate business to build buildings and cut down and destroy the natural habitat of animals like lions and tigers?
    But it's not okay for us to breed and protect species as poecs in our homemade environment ?
    Wow government that's a statement that deserves a slap. Not a clap

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  20. catfishrod69

    catfishrod69 Arachnoemperor

    The government is not making money off of the hobby, which means they want it stopped.
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
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