white stuff in avic avic mouth need help asap!

[Anastasia]

I did not read whole thread, but I would like to point that tarantulas infected with nematodes wont eat, wont clean themselfs ether.
I Am pretty sure white goop is a poop.

PS. are you the person who wanted to do research on sick tarantulas with nematodes/yeast/white goo on mouth to Help the hobby?
Then here is your chance, even so Am pretty much positive your Avic don't have nematode infection.
Identifying poop is a step in right direction in this case.

 

[AgeAye]

I did not read whole thread, but I would like to point that tarantulas infected with nematodes wont eat, wont clean Themselves ether.
I am pretty sure white goop is a poop.

PS. Are you the person who wanted to do research on sick tarantulas with nematodes/yeast/white goo on mouth to Help the hobby?
Then here is your chance, even so I am pretty much positive your Avic Doesn't have a nematode infection.
Identifying poop is a step in right direction in this case.

You might wanna read through some of the posts on both threads before posting the obvious. If it was something as simple as another poo eating T, it would have been case closed and I wish she was just another "poo eating T", check the videos and the pictures as well.
As for the research portion of things, I wish it was as easy as taking over a lab, and using the schools micro supplies and if that was the case I would have already been doing the research. There are many difficulties when dealing with the bureaucracy of a large university, the whole thing was a learning experience and I spent hours running around like a chicken his head cut off trying to find a way to make it happen, as I explained in that thread. The whole thing was a large learning experience but no one else was doing it so I went through the trouble of trying to make it happen. I explained what I wanted to do to 6 different professors and and the assistant dean of biomedical sciences to try and get approval and the use (which is impossible without receiving funding for) supplies, no department is willing to share supplies. If there is another way to go about conducting research, id like to know. I gathered all the information I could, followed what the schools website, the assistant dean, and each professors advice was and still could not find a way to find funding out of a 36mil expenditure that was donated for research within that field. It should also be noted that my school has separate buildings for research that students are not allowed in, and are high security. I am already frustrated at the school for making it this difficult and realizing how discouraging it may be to conduct your own research through a university if you are not a professor, working on obtaining a PhD, or have found some way to make tons of money through the research.

Also a quick recap for you about this thread; throwing up, dragging a mouth, showing discomfort when the white stuff appears, squirting venom into the mouth trying to clear the white stuff, spending hours trying to fang out the white stuff, and having the white stuff cover every meal/bolus since the first manifestation of whatever is happening is clearly not signs of a healthy T. Although many people say a T will not eat when it has nematodes this is not 100% certain, and may depend on a variety of factors such as the severity of infection or type of nematodes considering there are almost 2,000 types. I am not entirely convinced, but just because I'm fairly certain that my T does not have nematodes, I can't rule them out until I can properly check.

 

[Anastasia]

You might wanna read through some of the posts on both threads before posting the obvious. If it was something as simple as another poo eating T, it would have been case closed and I wish she was just another "poo eating T", check the videos and the pictures as well.
As for the research portion of things, I wish it was as easy as taking over a lab, and using the schools micro supplies and if that was the case I would have already been doing the research. There are many difficulties when dealing with the bureaucracy of a large university, the whole thing was a learning experience and I spent hours running around like a chicken his head cut off trying to find a way to make it happen, as I explained in that thread. The whole thing was a large learning experience but no one else was doing it so I went through the trouble of trying to make it happen. I explained what I wanted to do to 6 different professors and and the assistant dean of biomedical sciences to try and get approval and the use (which is impossible without receiving funding for) supplies, no department is willing to share supplies. If there is another way to go about conducting research, id like to know. I gathered all the information I could, followed what the schools website, the assistant dean, and each professors advice was and still could not find a way to find funding out of a 36mil expenditure that was donated for research within that field. It should also be noted that my school has separate buildings for research that students are not allowed in, and are high security. I am already frustrated at the school for making it this difficult and realizing how discouraging it may be to conduct your own research through a university if you are not a professor, working on obtaining a PhD, or have found some way to make tons of money through the research.

Also a quick recap for you about this thread; throwing up, dragging a mouth, showing discomfort when the white stuff appears, squirting venom into the mouth trying to clear the white stuff, spending hours trying to fang out the white stuff, and having the white stuff cover every meal/bolus since the first manifestation of whatever is happening is clearly not signs of a healthy T. Although many people say a T will not eat when it has nematodes this is not 100% certain, and may depend on a variety of factors such as the severity of infection or type of nematodes considering there are almost 2,000 types. I am not entirely convinced, but just because I'm fairly certain that my T does not have nematodes, I can't rule them out until I can properly check.

You obviously new to tarantula world and you asking for help and opinions from people who been long time involved with tarantulas, but when you get an opinions and suggestions you seems not value those opinions of people who had more experience first hand and you not satisfied. If you looking for people to convince you I Am not sure if anyone will volunteer to do so, possibly. So there is only one more suggestion I have, do your own research on behavior besides health issues.
I don't want to sound rude, but I refuse reading 3-4 pages of poop eating threads to find something that I don't already know and that is my opinion.
in the meant time you can read more about nematode infection >>here
your very welcome.

 

[Thobby1982]

You obviously new to tarantula world and you asking for help and opinions from people who been long time involved with tarantulas, but when you get an opinions and suggestions you seems not value those opinions of people who had more experience first hand and you not satisfied. If you looking for people to convince you I Am not sure if anyone will volunteer to do so, possibly. So there is only one more suggestion I have, do your own research on behavior besides health issues.
I don't want to sound rude, but I refuse reading 3-4 pages of poop eating threads to find something that I don't already know and that is my opinion.
in the meant time you can read more about nematode infection >>here
your very welcome.

You obiviously need to go back and read the 3-4 pages of " poop eating T before you start speaking up for everyone. If you did read the previous 4 pages you would know that several of the other well known hobbyist have looked at and agreed that this is not your typical poop eating T. The OP has expressed much appreciation from everyone that has tried helping and taken into consideration every opinion that has been offered. The OP also witnessed the T excreting the goop out of its, not just oozing out, but squirting out. Anyone you knows anything about T's knows that this is not a T eating poop! It is a sick T.

I am not trying to be rude, but you should really have all your facts before you start making comments like that.

 

[Anastasia]

You obiviously need to go back and read the 3-4 pages of " poop eating T before you start speaking up for everyone. If you did read the previous 4 pages you would know that several of the other well known hobbyist have looked at and agreed that this is not your typical poop eating T. The OP has expressed much appreciation from everyone that has tried helping and taken into consideration every opinion that has been offered. The OP also witnessed the T excreting the goop out of its, not just oozing out, but squirting out. Anyone you knows anything about T's knows that this is not a T eating poop! It is a sick T.

I am not trying to be rude, but you should really have all your facts before you start making comments like that.

Internet can be very difficult when comes to communicate, my statement rest on last reply of OP to my post.
Am not here to bash new people but help them, and still, respectfully, like I said nothing I learn new in poopeating treads with 3-4 pages long.
Many people will agree with me who been in this hobby for some time.

 

[AgeAye]

I've been very thankful to everyone on this thread that has offered their support or opinion. I've read as many posts on the most popular forums about this phenomenon and the few scarce publications on nematodes found on databases used for research at university's. I even translated parts of a German publication "arachne"! http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...Hd_-wH&usg=AFQjCNFQskvk0iprKnKfKtn73tBtvfII0w which is well worth checking out for the pictures alone. If you browse these threads I am clearly not alone. There are many factors that come into consideration like the fact I bought crickets from a store that only sells fish, I had 5 live plants in the enclosure, had a slight mold problem, and tried keeping high humidity with high ventilation which is a difficult task. I admit I am a "newbie" when it comes to this hobby, but I have not made any posts that are "ignorant" in the dictionary sense of the word. If you check other threads Code monkey had similar problems with his A.Avic which he identified as a yeast infection. http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?15229-A.-avic-has-white-mouth-crud......

 

[Thobby1982]

Internet can be very difficult when comes to communicate, my statement rest on last reply of OP to my post.
Am not here to bash new people but help them, and still, respectfully, like I said nothing I learn new in poopeating treads with 3-4 pages long.
Many people will agree with me who been in this hobby for some time.

The OP simply stated that you were speaking without having all the information, which you stated that you had not read all of the thread. Which in my opinion means you were speaking about something you did not know about. I stated that if you go back and read the entire thread you would realize that this is not a "poop eating T'. And you would also see that other well known members of this forum who are considered to be experts in this hobby have stated that they too do not believe this is a "poop eating T. And if you look at the OP's research poll post you would see that many of the "experts agree with the OP. So I will re-iterate the fact that you should read the enitre thread and then maybe you will change your mind about this being just another "poop eating T as you call it. I mean no disrespect but, I dont where you got the notion that the OP was ignoring everyones opinions and advice. When, if you read the entire post you will see that the OP is not igorning anyone.

Get all the Facts, Know all the Facts, Understand all the Facts.

 

[jim777]

I even translated parts of a German publication "arachne"! http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...Hd_-wH&usg=AFQjCNFQskvk0iprKnKfKtn73tBtvfII0w which is well worth checking out for the pictures alone. ...

Thanks for that link! I have been looking for Arachne for a few weeks now, as a number of Avicularia descriptions from the 90's seem only to have been published there and no where else.

 

[Shrike]

You might wanna read through some of the posts on both threads before posting the obvious.

I'm going to stick my neck out here. Even if Anastasia didn't read the entire thread word for word, she was just offering her opinion. AgedTheLabTechnician, I'm not taking a position on your thread, just pointing out that you could have simply respectfully disagreed. Not everybody has the time to follow a thread from beginning to end, reading it word for word. If Anastasia is wrong, then she made an honest mistake in an effort to help.

 

[AgeAye]

I apologize for calling her out like that but her first comment was very backhanded, and insulting; "Identifying poop is a step in right direction in this case."
Given that there are many posts of T's eating poop, I can assure you this is not one of them and the reason why the post was created was because I could not find adequate information.
If you had seen the clinical manifestations that my T has presented you would have been upset as well.

 

[Shrike]

I apologize for calling her out like that but her first comment was very backhanded, and insulting; "Identifying poop is a step in right direction in this case."
Given that there are many posts of T's eating poop, I can assure you this is not one of them and the reason why the post was created was because I could not find adequate information.
If you had seen the clinical manifestations that my T has presented you would have been upset as well.

I didn't read into it that much. I don't doubt your observations as I don't have any experience with this particular problem, or tarantulas eating their own poop for that matter. I'm sure I'd be upset in your position. In any case, I hope you find out what's wrong with your tarantula.

 

[mcluskyisms]

I gave up on this thread in the first two pages, sometimes people don't like to believe spiders eat their own crap from time to time.

:?

 

[Anastasia]

The OP simply stated that you were speaking without having all the information, which you stated that you had not read all of the thread. Which in my opinion means you were speaking about something you did not know about. I stated that if you go back and read the entire thread you would realize that this is not a "poop eating T'. And you would also see that other well known members of this forum who are considered to be experts in this hobby have stated that they too do not believe this is a "poop eating T. And if you look at the OP's research poll post you would see that many of the "experts agree with the OP. So I will re-iterate the fact that you should read the enitre thread and then maybe you will change your mind about this being just another "poop eating T as you call it. I mean no disrespect but, I dont where you got the notion that the OP was ignoring everyones opinions and advice. When, if you read the entire post you will see that the OP is not igorning anyone.

Get all the Facts, Know all the Facts, Understand all the Facts.

What facts are you talking about? and what experts agree with what? (please quote)I looked trough tread and pictures even took my time to see the video, just like I said previously, nothing new. OP trying to convince that his Avic sick, I just don't see it, it could use a bit more water and different set up, but that just about it.
Origin of Avicularia species is rainforests, living in trees make their webs in foliage tree trunks or cracks or other tree relating openings.
Humidity and rainfall is pretty consistent, Avics get hydration of their web or anything that is collecting rain drops close by. So proper set up for this species is very important and spraying enclosure absolutely necessary. All those are facts.
Also luck of hydration very much possible leading to thick white goo poop.
Its a poop, poop and noting else. Aghh, Thank you for reading.

 

[desertanimal]

I explained what I wanted to do to 6 different professors and and the assistant dean of biomedical sciences to try and get approval and the use (which is impossible without receiving funding for) supplies, no department is willing to share supplies. If there is another way to go about conducting research, id like to know. I gathered all the information I could, followed what the schools website, the assistant dean, and each professors advice was and still could not find a way to find funding out of a 36mil expenditure that was donated for research within that field. . . . I am already frustrated at the school for making it this difficult and realizing how discouraging it may be to conduct your own research through a university if you are not a professor, working on obtaining a PhD, or have found some way to make tons of money through the research.

I'm sorry you are feeling disillusioned, but it is not especially surprising that no one can give you their funds or their supplies to do your own personal research. If you were doing research that fit under the umbrella of someone's existing research, they could probably make that happen. But researchers don't have carte blanche with either their funds or the supplies that those funds buy. We have to submit receipts for every expenditure, reports for every expenditure, and if the University doesn't approve it and acknowledge that that was an expenditure that is appropriately related to the research that you were awarded the money for, they won't reimburse it. As in, the University holds the money that has been awarded to you as a researcher and decides whether you're spending it appropriately according to the granting agencies rules AND according to the University's own (usually additional) rules. And even that money gifted to the University for research comes with strings and requirements. You can bet your spider's 8 legs on it.

If someone ever found out that some researcher at your University allocated some of his or her funding to your personal interest and this was outside of the research that the money was granted for, that faculty member would open him or herself up to ending up on Senator Coburn's report on frivolous research.

https://www.google.com/search?q=cob...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

I can see it now: "Professor so-and-so fraudulently spends tax-payer $$$ to diagnose kid's sick tarantula."

Funding for scientific research has been under serious attack by this congress. All scientists with good ethics will spend their research money on exactly what they were awarded it for and nothing else (without asking permission from the funding agency). But you can bet that people have started minding their p's and q's a lot more carefully since scientific research funding has been so regularly marched up to the chopping block in the last two years.

Now, usually you do not have to be "a professor, working on obtaining a PhD, or have found some way to make tons of money through the research" in order to conduct scientific research at a University. But if you are working on your own research, you will have to pay your own bills. That's not unreasonable. That's how all people conducting scientific research have to do it. If you, as a researcher, need something the University doesn't already have, you usually have to find the money to get it. Everyone working on a PhD and many faculty deal with exactly the same constraints you are facing. You want to do something new, it isn't covered under the umbrella of existing, funded research, and you, personally, have to find a way to fund it.

If you are able to write a coherent study proposal in the format that is commonly used in biology and, with it, if you are able to secure a small grant that will pay for your supplies for this research, I don't doubt that you could find someone to let you use their lab equipment. Non-consumables like microscopes. Consumables you will have to pay for.

I recommend you look into small research grants available for undergraduate research either through your University or nationally. There may not be many, but there might be something. (This is why, usually, when undergraduates work in labs doing research, they work on the faculty member's existing research and not on something unrelated. For that matter, PhD students ALSO work on something under their advisors' existing research, and if they don't, they have to find their own funding for what they want to do.) If you decide to pay out of pocket to do your research (certainly many scientists do this from time to time--more often field biologists than lab biologists), if you have a clear plan, know what the consumables you will use will cost, can pay for them, AND can submit to a faculty member a clear project proposal and a realistic budget to show that you have done your homework and know what it will cost (you can usually find prices for things at your University lab stores online), you might have very different results than you had this time.

Good luck! Welcome to the world of doing scientific research! (And don't get discouraged. If you give up after one failure, a research biologist you are not destined to be. )

 

[AgeAye]

What facts are you talking about? and what experts agree with what? (please quote)I looked trough tread and pictures even took my time to see the video, just like I said previously, nothing new. OP trying to convince that his Avic sick, I just don't see it, it could use a bit more water and different set up, but that just about it.
Origin of Avicularia species is rainforests, living in trees make their webs in foliage tree trunks or cracks or other tree relating openings.
Humidity and rainfall is pretty consistent, Avics get hydration of their web or anything that is collecting rain drops close by. So proper set up for this species is very important and spraying enclosure absolutely necessary. All those are facts.
Also luck of hydration very much possible leading to thick white goo poop.
Its a poop, poop and noting else. Aghh, Thank you for reading.

I had my avic previously in a ten gallon enclosure with 5 live plants, very lavishly decorated, and high humidity. When she started throwing up, dragging her mouth on the glass, and fanging at the white stuff that was thick and goopy under her labium I thought the best course of action was to switch to a smaller enclosure so I could get rid of any possible environmental factors as well as being able to better monitor her. I put the tank in another room, and put her in a 1 gallon enclosure that was a bit more dry. At first she continued to throw up and drag her mouth as seen in the earlier pictures. no that is not poop that came out of her mouth tube, her fangs were all the way up when she was spitting it out and it was clearly less viscous. also her poop is more watery and globby than what forms under her labium. This substance is more goopy and viscous. The humidity in her enclosure is perfect. she was never curled up and never showed any signs of dehydration, just extreme discomfort with what was coming out of her mouth.

---------- Post added 01-24-2012 at 11:42 PM ----------

Good luck! Welcome to the world of doing scientific research! (And don't get discouraged. If you give up after one failure, a research biologist you are not destined to be. )

My degree goes hand in hand with the biotechnical engineering degree, the reason why I became a med tech was job prospect, and that med techs can become biotechnical engineers but biotechnical engineers cannot become med techs. I am well aware of the hardships that researchers face as I was exposed to many examples. My immunology professor, world renown for her research at the famous RPCI told us that you have to be emotionally strong and persistent in order to do research. Then she gave us a few examples of famous scientists who killed themselves under the immense pressure, for instance- The scientist who discovered the alternative pathway for complement activation was so distraught by the mocking and disbelief of his peers he killed himself by drinking the phenobarbital buffer. Half a year later his peers found out he was correct. A disadvantage to my degree is that I go to rotations at a hospital, and they do rotations at research and industrial R&D laboratories or in sales/technical representation in biotechnology, chemical or pharmaceutical companies... regardless I will still try to get research done. I thought studying nematodes and working on finding an antibiotic was a good start to the world of conducting research. I still want to eventually conduct research to benefit humanity, but it was a start and I thought it would be beneficial to something I am passionate about. If you think that T's are only susceptible to fungal infections, dehydration and nematodes you are mistaken. These are just the most common of the pathologies seen. I have no doubt T's can experience bacterial infections as well, but this is less common and therefore less talked about. I appreciate your advice, I wont give up. Although after I look into small research grants, I will most likely look into helping one of my professors with their research and establishing some sort of accomplishment in the field before going on to my own research.

When my T started puking and showing severe discomfort I spent a lot of time looking into it. I am just following my interests, by doing so it is not unlikely that I would find out things that have applications elsewhere in life.
I figured I could cure my own curiosity, and possibly my T if the infection was not self limiting and help the hobby as well.
"You learn new things through basic research and through serendipity. If you keep your eyes open, you see things you would never have seen otherwise."

 

[BenjaminBoa]

I don't know much about biology or anything but in case what ever this is clears up before you can do your own research I would keep some samples of the goo your avic is puking up. Even if it dries out the bacteria might still be recognizable right? And if I remember right, if it is from some kind of parasite there will be recognizable cysts inside the vomit? Maybe you could mail some samples to a lab or an exotic animal vet.

That or if you think it might be bacterial maybe you could inject a cricket, the water, or the T it's self with some dose of an anti biotic and see if it clears up. Just try treating it for what ever it might be and if it does clear up, well there isn't any certainty that there is your answer but it would be a loose correlation right?

I have two avics at home so I'm really interested in what the outcome and cause of all this might be incase it happens to me one day, so make sure you keep us all updated! Sorry about your tarantula, and that some people refuse to believe this might be something other than poop eating, I have a feeling some egos are getting in the way of seeing this issue with an open mind. With humans, dogs, cats, birds, reptiles, ect there's always freak cases that people havn't seen before, my friend's ex was a vet tech she used to always tell us stories about animals that would come in with just medical anomalies so I don't see why a tarantula is immune to being a freak case just because some people have had them for years.

But anyway, I bet if you sent a sample to an exotic vet lab they might be able to tell you what is in there and then you could do text research on what ever it is ailing your spider if you can't get access to a lab yourself.

 

[AgeAye]

I don't know much about biology or anything but in case what ever this is clears up before you can do your own research I would keep some samples of the goo your avic is puking up. Even if it dries out the bacteria might still be recognizable right? And if I remember right, if it is from some kind of parasite there will be recognizable cysts inside the vomit? Maybe you could mail some samples to a lab or an exotic animal vet.

Through misting the sides of the container most the vomit has washed away, her poo would be easy to grab a sample of and would show signs of eggs or cysts if it was a parasite(the only time she has left her web throughout this is to stick her butt out and spray it on the opposite side of the container.) I think the cysts would present themselves different but its worth a try. In her web is some hard clumps of the stuff she spit up but I cant reach it without destroying her web.

One of the additional reasons that I am convinced this is not another poo eating T, is because of what happens when she eats. A normal bolus is dried up hard brown ball of cricket exoskeleton. The past two times she has eaten within the month the white stuff appeared while she was eating and covered the entire bolus eventually, one of the reasons why I fed her was because her mouth looked clean and absent of the white stuff. As she ate the white stuff covered the bolus and it appeared really stringy if you check the pictures on page 3. I threw out the last two because of mold was forming on them, even the one I put in a tied finger of a glove.

 

[AgeAye]

For an update, she is living but has not eaten in a month and a half.

 

[Jeepergirl1992]

how is she doing now? My A. metallica is trailing white goo all over her enclosure and not eating, acting totally lethargic but her mouth doesn't look like it is full of anything, her mouth parts just look haggard like she has been trying really hard to get stuff off, but no white. She drinks off her web when i spray it and her abdomen isn't shriveled. I thought of this post when I saw the trailing of watery white all over, it looks a lot like those first photos on this thread.

did she pull through?

 

[alpine]

After reading the full thread I am curious to find out as well.