white stuff in avic avic mouth need help asap!

[Chris_Skeleton]

It doesn't look like she can't use them, just not choosing to. I have plenty of Ts that will snag a cricket and not use their pedipalps.

 

[AgeAye]

I don't have the slightest clue whats going on with her, but you were right about her choosing not to use her pedipalps. last night she webbed up the entire enclosure and her pedipalps were going crazy, I went in today and removed the bolus which is still covered in the white gunk from her mouth, I also realize that the white gunk at the bottom of her mouth is almost completely gone. She looks better, but every time I think its over she starts spitting up. Maybe she finally built up a strong enough immune response to take care of what ever was bothering her.

 

[jim777]

Do tarantulas have the ability to build up an imunity to something? I wouldn't think they were complex enough for that.

 

[BCscorp]

I'll have to find the pics, but I had a spider that started "foaming at the mouth". I was able to get a sample and microscope it and I could not see anything. This went on for a day or two, then I saw a tiny human hair come out of the mouth parts in the white goo. The spider then stopped producing the white goo and everything went back to normal. I am 99% sure the hair came out of the tarantula in the goo and did not get picked up somehow into the goo.

 

[AgeAye]

Do tarantulas have the ability to build up an imunity to something? I wouldn't think they were complex enough for that.

As far to my knowledge, every living thing has some sort of immunity. A virus has antigenic drift, a bacteria methylates its dna to protect from a virus, nematodes and simple organisms have innate immunity but no adaptive immunity, and I'm willing to bet anything more complex then a nematode or trematode has white blood cells. I know from the foelix textbook that arachnids do have granular white blood cells in its hemolymph (foelix calls these granular hemocytes), but the granules are probably analogous to our own granular cells like baso's eosin's and neuts and probably serve similar functions against parasites and bacteria. Id say that they most likely have an adaptive immunity and would produce antibodys against an antigen such as yeast.... Think of how many potential pathogens are found in places where T's are found; they would not be here today if it was not for some kind of immunity.

---------- Post added 01-18-2012 at 01:20 PM ----------

I searched and searched and all I could find was that insects only have an innate immunity.... until I found this snippet http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071204104218.htm ... IF they just found out that insects have some sort of adaptive immunity, I am willing to bet that arachnids do as well. A tarantula can live up to 20-30 years in the wild... That alone means that they most definitely have an adaptive immune system.

---------- Post added 01-18-2012 at 01:27 PM ----------

I'll have to find the pics, but I had an spider that started "foaming at the mouth". I was able to get a sample and microscope it and I could not see anything. This went on for a day or two, then I saw a tiny human hair come out of the mouth parts in the white goo. The spider then stopped producing the white goo and everything went back to normal. I am 99% sure the hair came out of the tarantula in the goo and did not get picked up somehow into the goo.

if you find the pics post it, im curious.

 

[AgeAye]

She looks better, but every time I think its over she starts spitting up.

Need I say more? the poor thing was spitting up last night, and the white gunk at the bottom returned. This sucks. Ill stop counting my chickens before the hatch and notify you guys if she goes more then a week without symptoms. I wish i could grab her and see whats up with her fangs but I've never actually grabbed her before, and shes isolated herself in a pocket of web.

 

[Ciphor]

How is she behaving? Is she slow to move? Seem Ill? Or is this purely a concern of the mouth secretion? If she is in trouble, she should show some kind of sign of that in her over-all health.

 

[AgeAye]

she is moving slow, has trouble walking, and does not respond to the spray bottle like she did when she was healthy. before when I would spray she would jump at the sound and retreat to her hiding spot. now she just sits there. If I accidentally get a drop of water on her she doesn't flinch. Its been a slew of odd behavior. Tapping while trying to get the stuff out of her mouth, eating her web, short bursts of frantic pacing and lethargy. She was gentle when it came to attacking the cricket. nothing like the last few times i fed her where she quickly and viciously attacks her prey.

 

[Chris_Skeleton]

Varying feeding reaction isn't abnormal. I have many Ts that will chase a cricket down and attack it, then the next time just gently grab it up. You say it's eating it's web? I wonder if it can't digest it and maybe that is what is coming back up. I don't know why it would be eating its web though.

 

[AgeAye]

that was two days ago, It webbed a small amount, then I witnessed it eating some. After she went on a power webbing spree and webbed half the enclosure, I took that as a sign she was feeling better and then bam white stuff in her mouth last night at 2.... ITS ALWAYS AROUND 2 AM.... doesn't matter if im up and all the lights are on or not, when this happens its usually around 2 AM, I have only seen her spit up once around 7PM.

 

[Chris_Skeleton]

Have you looked at the "similar threads" at the bottom of the page?

 

[AgeAye]

Have you looked at the "similar threads" at the bottom of the page?

yeah I've looked through all the searches of nematodes as well, for some reason pictures in previous posts have a tendency of disappearing

---------- Post added 01-19-2012 at 11:48 PM ----------

I've also looked through numerous medical journals today, throughout everything I only know of 3 people who have actively researched the subject, I also found a confirmation of the white stuff in a T sick with a bacterial infection somewhere, and downloaded a german PDF on research of nematodes which had different pictures and one species was too small to see unless you use a 400x.... I probably should do that sometime next week.

 

[Anonymity82]

yeah I've looked through all the searches of nematodes as well, for some reason pictures in previous posts have a tendency of disappearing

---------- Post added 01-19-2012 at 11:48 PM ----------

I've also looked through numerous medical journals today, throughout everything I only know of 3 people who have actively researched the subject, I also found a confirmation of the white stuff in a T sick with a bacterial infection somewhere, and downloaded a german PDF on research of nematodes which had different pictures and one species was too small to see unless you use a 400x.... I probably should do that sometime next week.

If your T was spewing nematodes wouldn't it have probably passed away already?

 

[AgeAye]

If your T was spewing nematodes wouldn't it have probably passed away already?

not much information to confirm this. I wish i had more information on other peoples accounts of their T being sick. The white stuff appeared 9 days ago and so far she has shown the goopy white stuff 6 of those days. appetite is severely diminished but she did eat the other day after a 15 day fast.

 

[mcluskyisms]

not much information to confirm this. I wish i had more information on other peoples accounts of their T being sick. The white stuff appeared 9 days ago and so far she has shown the goopy white stuff 6 of those days. appetite is severely diminished but she did eat the other day after a 15 day fast.

A tarantula with nematodes would not eat as they cant.

 

[AgeAye]

A tarantula with nematodes would not eat as they cant.

What do you mean can't?
Yes, there is reports of people saying their T wont eat when it has the nemes but that could be related to the severity of the infection. I don't see any hard evidence saying that it is impossible.
I will try and get an ID next week of what the white stuff is. Fungi, bacteria, or parasites.... Its hard to get anything past my safety officer in my program, at my last college I would have had this identified already and the faculty would have been glad to help.
In case you didnt see, check the pics of her eating, the white stuff literally saturated the outside by the time it was a dehydrated bolus. I saved the bolus but its in a tied up glove and I'm afraid to open it just yet. It's very possible that it could be nemes and that they are just too small to see.

 

[CitizenCrack]

at my last college I would have had this identified already and the faculty would have been glad to help.

Unless you have moved too far away why not try the college anyway, if the staff remember you they would still want to help right? It's worth a go, or try getting back in touch with someone there and send them the samples

 

[AgeAye]

Unless you have moved too far away why not try the college anyway, if the staff remember you they would still want to help right? It's worth a go, or try getting back in touch with someone there and send them the samples

its only a 45 min drive, but its not that easy for me to just ask and it would be awkward. I got the OK to do some slides at my school now but she hasn't shown signs since Friday so I cant get a fresh sample. I could do a fecal sample, but I don't think that would be as helpful as a mouth swab of the white stuff. I also just picked up a 1" chaco and although my B.vagans is fine (I stopped wearing gloves and now the only thing I sterilize is my tongs after attempting to feed my sick avic), I would still like to rule out any parasites, plus that will tell me how vigilant I need to be with cleaning her ten gallon and If i can reuse the waterbowl and cork bark without boiling.

---------- Post added 01-24-2012 at 12:50 AM ----------

oh, I was able to feed her a small cricket on friday, thought that was worth noting, although she could barely attack it. I was getting worried when i saw the cricket sitting on her abdomen, but eventually the cricket got really cocky and went right under her mouth and she finally went for it. I tried feeding her another small cricket today, i dropped it right in front of her, nothing for a minute, cricket went towards her and she tagged it and held it down with her pedipalps but eventually let it walk away. sad but comical, the cricket seemed confused. I'm guessing it was a dry bite.

 

[AlexRC]

She's probably not hungry, and may be why she let the cricket go. If her abdomen appears to be at a healthy size, try to keep the feeding to a minimum until she starts showing that she's dramatically improving. If she just ate on friday, I wouldn't feed again until AT LEAST this friday, but probably even later than that. I'd continue to take samples, but wouldn't bother her other than that. Just continue to monitor and document her behavior and secretion. I'm thinking that maybe this is all has something to do with the frequency of your feedings. 4-5 crickets a week as stated before is seriously too much, and the discharge may be a result of her metabolism not being able to handle it. With too much to digest, it's possible that any micro bacterias or parasites may have been free to do their damage, but this is just a theory of mine. The one thing I see similar between your Avic and My B. Albopilosum (the one I linked in your vid), is that they were both being severely over fed (mine by the previous owner), and both produced large quantities of abnormal discharge.
Here's the link to the situation I recently had that was somewhat similar to this matter if you haven't seen it yet, or anyone else would like to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NICiMQbTUxc
My thoughts and good wishes are with both you and your T, and I hope all turns out well. Just give it time.

 

[AgeAye]

She's probably not hungry, and may be why she let the cricket go. If her abdomen appears to be at a healthy size, try to keep the feeding to a minimum until she starts showing that she's dramatically improving. If she just ate on friday, I wouldn't feed again until AT LEAST this friday, but probably even later than that. I'd continue to take samples, but wouldn't bother her other than that. Just continue to monitor and document her behavior and secretion. I'm thinking that maybe this is all has something to do with the frequency of your feedings. 4-5 crickets a week as stated before is seriously too much, and the discharge may be a result of her metabolism not being able to handle it. With too much to digest, it's possible that any micro bacterias or parasites may have been free to do their damage, but this is just a theory of mine. The one thing I see similar between your Avic and My B. Albopilosum (the one I linked in your vid), is that they were both being severely over fed (mine by the previous owner), and both produced large quantities of abnormal discharge.
Here's the link to the situation I recently had that was somewhat similar to this matter if you haven't seen it yet, or anyone else would like to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NICiMQbTUxc
My thoughts and good wishes are with both you and your T, and I hope all turns out well. Just give it time.

Whoa, I have never seen an abdomen like that. My avic's abdomen is plump, but it seems a "healthy" (as in fat american healthy) similar to most pictures of avicavics. comparable to this picture which is not mine http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs115.snc3/16247_197837288383_591393383_3931497_2160276_n.jpg shes about the same size as well maybe a bit larger but the proportions are the same. I'll take a photo tomorrow but I really don't think that is the issue, she was used to feeding on 2 roaches a week prior, and I admit as a bad decision, I decided to feed her 5 large crickets in a week in an attempt to get her into premolt. I still dont think the white stuff is coming directly from the mouth tube, I'm thinking the spewing of the white stuff that happened was secondary to the initial infection of the white goopy stuff. What did come directly out of her mouth tube was also considerably less viscous, this was also the first day I noticed and the worst her symptoms have been. since then it has been considerably less dramatic (watching her puke on top of dragging the mouth and trying to get the white stuff out was horrible). I am thinking the infection is from the pocket behind the labium. I feel like if it was from her mouth tube it would be all over her mouth hairs but instead it seems to only occur on the labium at the bottom. http://www.tarantulasdemexico.com/images/anatomia/abajo/boca_en.jpg Regardless the amount of white stuff, and frequency of outbreaks seems to be diminishing. I'm hoping for the best.

---------- Post added 01-24-2012 at 04:13 AM ----------

If you look under my images you can see a good pic of her abdomen taken after I fed her the string of L. crickets. It hasn't gotten any bigger since then, then again It hasn't shrunk either, even with the 15 day fast.