white stuff in avic avic mouth need help asap!

[AgeAye]

Heres is an update and the best pics I could get. mouth is no longer wet, and the amount of white seems limited to the inside, now there seems to be brown crud at the bottom (labium) where I first noticed the white crud accumulating. I also witnessed her throwing up the brown crud last night from within the white juice. After spraying the white juice down here is what is left stuck to container. my assumption was cricket remains. as odd of an occurrence this is I am 100% sure, and not lying that she threw up (literally shot out of the presoma or sucking tube) this brown stuff within the white shortly after swabbing her and transferring her to a different container. Her fangs were all the way extended up when it happened/clear as day, It is not an assumption and I have nothing to gain by lying, I just want my girl to be healthy and better

 

[Anonymity82]

So would you say it is improving? Still active? Honestly, I think the only thing you would be able to do is put it in an ICU if it becomes lethargic. Try not to worry too much. It would be bad if it died, but there's not much you can do either way. The fact that it's still active nearly 24 hours later is a good sign. Has it pooped since the last time you fed it?

---------- Post added 01-12-2012 at 10:30 PM ----------

Would you say the brown stuff has solids in it? They can only digest liquid therefor, they need to expel any solids including solids as small as 1/1000 of a millimeter. Maybe the solids built up and she needed to expel all the build up. I'm just being speculative and have no experience with this and only a little bit of experience with T's. I was just checking out the TKG's section on digestion.

 

[tarantulagirl10]

If she is acting fine, I would not worry. It really looks like poo on the side of the enclosure.

 

[AgeAye]

If she is acting fine, I would not worry. It really looks like poo on the side of the enclosure.

I moved her to that enclosure and I directly watched that come out of her mouth, she then continued to smear it with her mouth. In her old cage she had not left her web in 10 days, there was no poo anywhere within the walls of the web.

 

[Anonymity82]

If she is acting fine, I would not worry. It really looks like poo on the side of the enclosure.

It does look like poo. I believe her that she was "vomiting" this from her mouth. Uric acid is why it's so white but I don't know where in the T's digestion that liquid actually becomes white. I'm also curious at what point in the digestion system of a T can they no longer expel food from the mouth.

 

[AgeAye]

So would you say it is improving? Still active? Honestly, I think the only thing you would be able to do is put it in an ICU if it becomes lethargic. Try not to worry too much. It would be bad if it died, but there's not much you can do either way. The fact that it's still active nearly 24 hours later is a good sign. Has it pooped since the last time you fed it?

---------- Post added 01-12-2012 at 10:30 PM ----------

Would you say the brown stuff has solids in it? They can only digest liquid therefor, they need to expel any solids including solids as small as 1/1000 of a millimeter. Maybe the solids built up and she needed to expel all the build up. I'm just being speculative and have no experience with this and only a little bit of experience with T's. I was just checking out the TKG's section on digestion.

unfortunately she is not active. I picked up the jar twice since then and I saw her move a leg both times so she is alive but when she stopped puking and fanging up and down in her mouth, she moved away from it, she hasn't moved from that spot since 5am. Also no poop seen in or around her web, I already sterilized everything except her tank and moved that into another room for heavy duty sterilization tomorrow. shes not spitting up white, her mouth is not soaking wet anymore, and there is little white apparent, more brown crud on the labium. Id say its an improvement but not by much.

 

[Anonymity82]

unfortunately she is not active. I picked up the jar twice since then and I saw her move a leg both times so she is alive but when she stopped puking and fanging up and down in her mouth, she moved away from it, she hasn't moved from that spot since 5am. Also no poop seen in or around her web, I already sterilized everything except her tank and moved that into another room for heavy duty sterilization tomorrow. shes not spitting up white, her mouth is not soaking wet anymore, and there is little white apparent, more brown crud on the labium. Id say its an improvement but not by much.

I think the best thing you could do now is LEAVE HER ALONE and try to think about something else. I know you want to help, but unfortunately there isn't much you can do and changing her from tank to tank or investigating too much could cause a lot of stress. There aren't any signs of nematodes so that's probably not it. Maybe she is over what ever happened and she needs down time to recover. Give her a water dish and I wouldn't try to feed her for a couple of days to a week (unless her abdomen looks shriveled, then I would try sooner)
I would say document your experience. Right down every little detail you can think of. Keep a timeline and don't lose it. This experience might come in handy in the future. You might even be able to help someone else with a similar problem.

 

[AgeAye]

I think the best thing you could do now is LEAVE HER ALONE and try to think about something else. I know you want to help, but unfortunately there isn't much you can do and changing her from tank to tank or investigating too much could cause a lot of stress. There aren't any signs of nematodes so that's probably not it. Maybe she is over what ever happened and she needs down time to recover. Give her a water dish and I wouldn't try to feed her for a couple of days to a week (unless her abdomen looks shriveled, then I would try sooner)
I would say document your experience. Right down every little detail you can think of. Keep a timeline and don't lose it. This experience might come in handy in the future. You might even be able to help someone else with a similar problem.

Thanks for the support, ill write a timeline later tonight, as for now I'm gonna go out have a drink and take my mind off it since its been depressing me. Hopefully she will recover, or better yet molt in a week or two, and I can transfer her to another new container and hope my worries are over. Her abdomen looks fat, I saw her drinking earlier today, so im not worried about dehydration, or starvation. Ill try feeding her in a week and hope for the best.

 

[Anonymity82]

Thanks for the support, ill write a timeline later tonight, as for now I'm gonna go out have a drink and take my mind off it since its been depressing me. Hopefully she will recover, or better yet molt in a week or two, and I can transfer her to another new container and hope my worries are over. Her abdomen looks fat, I saw her drinking earlier today, so im not worried about dehydration, or starvation. Ill try feeding her in a week and hope for the best.

I got into this hobby about 6 months ago with an Emperor scorpion and the stress and worry near killed me. Like I said, I spent so much time trying to keep it warm enough and humid enough and it still got stuck in its molt and died. I realized then, there isn't much you can do. Try your best. Save euthanasia for absolutely last resorts. If she goes into a death curl than put her in an ICU and don't check on her every ten minutes. The best bet would be to leave her alone.

But, as you said, she is drinking water which I think is a great sign. Give her 24 more hours and see how she is doing. Remember, she's a spider, not a hamster. If she's just sitting there, she's probably doing exactly what she should be . Goodluck and keep us posted!

 

[AgeAye]

just an update, came home and her mouth is covered in white again, but not nearly as bad as yesterday. Her pedipalps are curled and she seems to have trouble walking. She pulled out some more white stuff with her fangs that I swabbed off the side of the enclosure, nothing but white particles, no worms confirmed with my 30x handheld scope. Ill post a pic of the glob in the morning. Hopefully she can fight through this, she is wetting her mouth and attempting to pull the clumps out with her fangs. School starts on tuesday, Hopefully it goes away by then but if it doesn't I might be able to convince my parasitology teacher to let me make a few slides and try some stains. If i can, Ill do a gram stain a PAS stain and a wet prep and post the results. Hopefully it ends by then.

 

[Chris_Skeleton]

You need to post a video.

 

[LucasNorth]

Sounds alot like nematode infection still hmm. http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...-of-a-nematode-infection.-(Microscope-photos)
Unless you have an amazing keen eye I doubt you would see worms with a 30x handheld. You would need a powerful light source underneath to illuminate, look for problems balancing, restlessness and excessive webbing as symptoms. At that stage of infection there is no hope really.

 

[GoTerps]

Sounds alot like nematode infection still hmm.
Unless you have an amazing keen eye I doubt you would see worms with a 30x handheld.

I don't necessarily believe the images from the OP show a nematode infection, and I must disagree that the nematodes couldn't be seen under 30x magnification.

Although, I've found 40x gives a better look at the nematodes (there are different types) which are typically seen in theraphosids.

Eric

Edit. I certainly can't say there aren't nematodes involved here... but I am comfortable saying you can see a lot of poo in the images. The spider could still be sick, could still have nematodes, but IME that's not what your seeing in those pictures... it's poo.

 

[AgeAye]

I don't necessarily believe the images from the OP show a nematode infection, and I must disagree that the nematodes couldn't be seen under 30x magnification.

Although, I've found 40x gives a better look at the nematodes (there are different types) which are typically seen in theraphosids.

Eric

Edit. I certainly can't say there aren't nematodes involved here... but I am comfortable saying you can see a lot of poo in the images. The spider could still be sick, could still have nematodes, but IME that's not what your seeing in those pictures... it's poo.

Its hard for me to believe she is spewing "POO" exactly.
I think I found the answer but I need these people to come forward an put their opinion out.
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?137330-GBB-Molting-or-Death-Curl/page2
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...fasciatum-s-mouth&highlight=white mouth crust
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...-G.-Rosea-with-intermittent-mouth-exudates&s=

It seems to me more like a yeast infection, specially the way the particles seperated with a good twirl. I hope it is, because its not nearly as contagious and she has a possibility of surviving. Im gonna try and find a scope to buy with at least 400x, magnification. If she does it again tonight I will add some saline and check to see if it is yeast.

---------- Post added 01-13-2012 at 05:37 PM ----------

I also did have 4 live plants in her terrarium, so yeast is a possibility. I replaced the potting soil with cocofiber which works fine, and she rarely went near the bottom of the plants.

 

[jim777]

Old college 'scopes are often on eBay, as they upgrade their equipment. High quality stuff, just older, but usually very reasonable as well.

 

[AgeAye]

Old college 'scopes are often on eBay, as they upgrade their equipment. High quality stuff, just older, but usually very reasonable as well.

I unfortunately need to see where I stand after purchasing books and school supplies but amazon.com has a good selection for around the $200 range. I just want one with a 1000x oil immersion objective.
As for my T, it appears she is making progress. Around the same time every night I see the white/grey stuff come out of her mouth, it becomes less and less, her behavior however, more strange. Last night she was pounding on the enclosure making a audible thump thump with her first two feet, while clearing it out of her mouth. Pedipalps going crazy and this time I think i witnessed her diluting the goop with her venom and trying to flick it out. Took some off the container and no worms again, she also pooped which is not as viscous as what was in her mouth and just slid down the wall of the container. She then starting walking frantically around the container, even walking on the substrate a few times. FORTUNATELY Today She looks better, mouth hairs still rattled and underside stained a bit with crusty white but Noo goopy mouth! She even groomed her pedipalps which I haven't seen her do since the beginning of her fast! I am hoping this is a sign she is getting better!

 

[AgeAye]

You need to post a video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69zPKF2fwsI&feature=youtu.be

She does not look so good tonight , I just shot this.

 

[donniedark0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69zPKF2fwsI&feature=youtu.be

She does not look so good tonight , I just shot this.

Yea, seems like shes trying to get rid of it and it's bothering her.
I wish there was a way to use a cotton swab and help her. But way to fast and skittish to pinch grab. Maybe someone can enlighten us on how to Pinch grab fast avics so you can clean her up. Good luck. Thats sad.

 

[AgeAye]

another update, last night she was eating her web she just spun. Its been almost half a month of her not eating so I fed her a cricket, she pounced on it but shes having trouble. she gave up drinking from the body and Is now just sucking on the leg of a large cricket. The white goo has returned during this feast, maybe it wasn't such a good Idea to feed her, but I'm hoping food might bring on a molt.

 

[AgeAye]

I also realize she cannot use her pedipalps to hold the food Its heartbreaking.