Warning: graphic images of starvation

Spidergurl

Arachnopeon
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Male

If they are female, then it's great that you rescued them, but I must admit, I agree with G Wright on this one. They look like mature males (in which case they probably won't survive much longer no matter how much care you give them). My male L.paryhabana did not eat for around a year before his struggle finally ended. His abdomen by that time looked exactly like these G.rosea's. After males reach maturity, the only thing on their mind is finding females :)
 

Randomosity

Arachnosquire
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I'm now known as "the spider guy" at the local Petland.

Thier rosies still need some working on, evidently the Petland manager got his hands on some book that says rosies don't need water dishes.

However, I did manage to get them to give the lividium they had a waterdish....I bought the lividium a few weeks later.

The substrate...well I dunno what the heck it is...they're like little tannish thingys....they almost look like feed for small rodents....I really have no clue what it is...but the Rosies don't seem to mind...one of them has webbed up quite a bit and the other is indeed living up to it's pet rock. The one that does the webbing is also highly aggressive...and tried to attack the fully grown beardie next to it and will go into threat pose when someone walks by. Looks like it's a male....the other one is definately female.

Both are very well fed, and the manager asked why one of them had'nt eaten in about 2 weeks, of which I told him, and I quote, "The mysteries of the rosie are unfathomable." She started eating again today.


But Gail....hooray for you! They really need a medal for people like you who rescue T's that have been abused.
 

Gail

Arachnopixie
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WayneT said:
Gail, how are they doing now? I noticed this thread began in 2003...maybe you've posted about it since then, but since this thread is up again, mind sharing? Thanks!
Got your PM WayneT and figured I'd kill two birds with one stone and reply to you and the others here in the thread :) Funny how old threads come up like this eh?
First off, I still have two of them that are part of my private (ie not to be sold) collection, both females, both gravid at this point and doing very well. The others were rehabilitated and sold/given to new good owners.
I really wish that they HAD been mature males, as it would have excused the condition, but none of them were mature males. In fact, there was only one that was a male, immature, sexed from his molt, and still immature when he left me. All the rest were females.
As to all the flack from those who refuse to do "rescue" buys - first of all, yes, it is an honorable thing to want to try to stop the importation and abuse of cheap spiders and if I thought for one second that enough people would stop buying and start complaining to actually make that happen, I would be the first to do so. But we are talking reality here, not happy fantasy. I do point out to people who have "abused" spiders that they need to care for them better - has it changed any of them? No. Do they sell spiders even when I don't buy them? Yes. So if you or I refuse to buy a spider as a rescue with the excuse of "I don't want to contribute" then basically, the only thing you are really doing is pass up giving that spider what might be the only chance that spider has at living. So, really, you become at least a part of the reason why the spider dies.
I have been buying up rosies for years and rehabing them. Call me crazy, but I have been "stock piling" the best of them into my private collection for that inevitable day when they WILL be listed on CITES. I don't feel that I have contributed to their importation because I know darn well that humans are not cooperative enough on REALLY REALLY IMPORTANT things, let alone something like spider importation, to band together and have ever made a difference. I feel better knowing that when I have been able to afford it, I have likely prevented the death of many many spiders.

Gail

EDIT: actually, I think that one other one may have ended up a male too, I seem to recall the gentleman I sent most of them to saying something about that now that I think about it...
 
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WayneT

Arachnoangel
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Thank you Gail! (You could write for a living...I know, we've covered that ground :D )
I aggree with every point you made. I see both sides of the arguement, but somehow that arguement seems to fade away when I'm standing in a pet shop (my local one) and I see the rose they've had in there for two weeks, obviously approching a molt, yet there's 12 crickets crawling all over her, and the 10 or so dead crickets in the kritter keeper, the small one, along with the dried up pellets, whatever that crap is they add water to and it gels...I tell the keeper, "yeah weregetting ready to get those out of there" heck he didn't even grasp the concept of molting, let alone have any desire to remedy that situation. I went ahead and bought it, it molted two days later, then I gave it to my nephew, who thinks his uncle is the coolest cause he keeps spiders!
Sounds like it worked out wonderful for you Gail! Thanks for the update and thanks for sharing.
 

nowhereman

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Gail...You have a big heart. Those are the worst photos I've ever seen of this nature. :( We have several in our collection that were rescue buys and we would not hesitate to do it again. All of ours have made it so far and I hope your new additions do too. :)


Xelda. I do see your point. I do not buy sick T's, Just mistreated. The problem is only perpetuated by those who sell to these types of stores. Still I prefer life over certain death.
 
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xelda

Arachnobaron
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Buying the animal to help it get better is still buying the animal regardless of its state of health. It's not a rescue when you support the business with your money. This is money that should be going to the propogation of captive-breeding, not irresponsible WC sellers. If you can talk the store people into giving you the Ts for free, then that is a rescue. It leaves the store without the animals and without your money. You might not think you're doing much by choosing not to buy the animals, but think of how much damage you're doing with your purchase. You're perpetuating the problem. Are you just going to keep buying every sick T you see being sold? Is that what everyone is going to keep doing?

How many people have replied to this thread saying they would do what you did in that situation? If all of these people choose NOT buy the animals, encouraged other people to do the same, then that is eventually going to have an impact on the stores. It's merely a small step, but at least it's in the right direction.
 

Catherine

Arachnosquire
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I'm glad they've been given a second chance. I know people say don't buy spiders that are being ill treated. I completly understand why, but I couldn't have left them to suffer either. There is no way I could have left without them.
 

WayneT

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Catherine said:
I'm glad they've been given a second chance. I know people say don't buy spiders that are being ill treated. I completly understand why, but I couldn't have left them to suffer either. There is no way I could have left without them.
That's my position as well Catherine. I cannot stand to see tarantulas kept the way they are somtimes. I realize it perpetuates an ongoing problem, but I can't leave them there.
 

chique

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I've just read this entire thread and I was appauled by the first pics shown. My opinion is that there are two mainstream types of T keepers, pet owners and hobbiests (dunno if 'hobbiest is a real word but u know what I mean?).
of course you want a healty, happy T to start with just like with any other animal you may choose to care for. When I got my first T (shameful or not) I went for the nicest look Rosea the store had, its natural, I practically turned my nose up at the scraggly corner dwellers thinking they'd be no'fun' so thats when I became a pet owner with my pretty rosea.
However, like many others owning T's becomes a hobby, a fascination and a part of your life you would'nt be without! So these people (me now included) become hobbiests where you actually want to extend your collection, vary your knowlege, learn from good and bad experiences and become a bonafied T owner. You don't walk into your pet store thinking I'm gonna buy their cutest a.avic etc, you think how can I improve my collection, which T would I benifit the life of most and which will I get the most satisfaction from etc.
What I'm tryin to say in a verrrrrrry long winded way is that if you wanna pet you get a pet, if you wanna love and care for T's then no T is out of the question as long as your making a difference to their lives and ultimately yours.

Anyway, big up to Gail I reakon you did the right thing!

Ammendment; I think I should mention outta respect for the larger/more experienced collectors that i only have 3 T's but my opinion remains, I love my T's.
I'll go away now.
Promise.
Okay I'm gone
 
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Gail

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xelda said:
How many people have replied to this thread saying they would do what you did in that situation? If all of these people choose NOT buy the animals, encouraged other people to do the same, then that is eventually going to have an impact on the stores. It's merely a small step, but at least it's in the right direction.
I suspect that you are young and/or sheltered, and don't get me wrong, I admire your good intentions. However, I am old and jaded and as I said before, I KNOW that people are NOT going to band together in sufficent quanities EVER. Therefore I will continue to buy T's that need a chance at life. I may be old and jaded but I am not heartless. Do you really think that the T's in question would rather die in the hopes that the humans are going to get their crap together and stop the abuse? Let me put it another way - how about you go ahead and step out in front of a drunk driver because the publicity of your brutal and lingering death is going to actually make people stop driving drunk? Doing that would be just as stupid and just as much a waste of your precious life as leaving a T to die because of some lofty pie in the sky dream that it's death will be the first small step in stopping importation abuse. To put it rather bluntly, I just won't fight losing battles anymore - it's a waste of time and energy - resources that I'd rather put towards saving the life of the T's in question. In my world, life, all life, is precious and not to be squandered away for unattainable ideals, no matter how honorable those ideals may be.

Gail
 

shadowkat

Arachnosquire
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errr

It's things like this that make me wish I had a gun. Hope your able to nurse them back to health
 

xelda

Arachnobaron
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It's your prerogative to buy whatever animals you choose to buy, but you have to recognize that there is a difference between a rescue and a purchase. Would you buy a sick animal knowing that ten more will be stocked to replace it? Would you then buy those ten knowing that a hundred more will be bought? Are you going to buy all hundred of those? Do you even have any remorse for the domino effect you have caused because you wanted to save that first sick animal you saw?

I agree that life is precious, but you have to look at what's going to do the greater good here. Buying a sick animal is merely responding to an immediate problem that's presented itself in front of you, but it's no solution to the big issue that's hidden in the background. Money talks, and you are simply telling these abusive dealers that it's okay to keep doing what they're doing. By the time the first sick animal has lived a happy old life, there will already be hundreds, maybe even thousands more that have suffered because of the encouragement and profit you offer to the people who continue causing these animals to suffer.

Thanks for the psycho-analysis. I don't think I'm quite as naive as you think. These so-called "rescues" occur in herpetoculture which is a lot more established and developed than the T hobby. At least with herp communities and even veterinary circles, the general consensus is that people should not buy their perceived rescues, the key word here being buy.
 

WayneT

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I've thought about this for awhile now, and I'd like to say that if there are concerned people out there that would like to form a group to aid in the prevention of this treatment, I'm more than willing to donate some time and effort. I'm planning on doing some limited edtion prints of some of my tarantula artwork that I'd be willing to take a percentage off of to help fund it.

Anyone interested?
 

Gail

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Xelda, I have also been thinking about this for a bit today and I say peace between us.

Looking at it objectively, this really isn't about one of us being right or one of us being wrong, since, at the core, the issue isn't as much about how best to save abused T's as it is about personal opinions, personal beliefs and personal morality. Note the emphasis on "personal" - it's a wonderful thing because it allows each person to do those things and hold those beliefs and morals which make that particular person happy. There is absolutely no rule that says everyone has to have the SAME personal opinions, beliefs and morals.

If I am understanding you correctly: You believe that if you don't buy a starving tarantula that it will be one small step towards stopping the abuse in the first place. You believe that people can and will band together in sufficent numbers to really make a difference. It makes you feel that you are doing the right thing to NOT buy the tarantulas - it makes you happy.

I believe that when I buy a starving animal that it is one small life that I have saved. I do not believe that people will ever band together in sufficent numbers to make any sort of significant difference in the importation/abuse of tarantulas. I feel that I am doing the right thing when I buy a tarantula and give it a chance at life - it makes me happy.

So you do what makes you happy, I'll do what makes me happy - the world is quite big enough for both of our opinions/beliefs/moralities - no need to argue and, in fact, I appologize for becoming irritated enough in the first place that I actually turned it into an arguement - I usually am not like that as I try very hard to respect everyone's right to their own views wether I agree with them or not. As far as I am concerned, this is a non-issue at this point. However, if you chose the left hand path and decide to continue to try to force your opinions and beliefs on me, in spite of the fact that I respect your right to hold a differing view and will no longer try to force mine on you, know that I will use the handy dandy "Ignore" setting - life is too short to argue over such things or to bother myself with those who mistakenly believe that their way is the only way.

Gail
 

Dee

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WayneT said:
I've thought about this for awhile now, and I'd like to say that if there are concerned people out there that would like to form a group to aid in the prevention of this treatment, I'm more than willing to donate some time and effort. I'm planning on doing some limited edtion prints of some of my tarantula artwork that I'd be willing to take a percentage off of to help fund it.

Anyone interested?

Sure! I would be interested in helping somehow! I wish I could do some art to scan and contribute!

*hugs*

Lee (who is currently starting to volunteer at a cat shelter. We need a tarantula shelter!)
 

WayneT

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Dee said:
Sure! I would be interested in helping somehow! I wish I could do some art to scan and contribute!

*hugs*

Lee (who is currently starting to volunteer at a cat shelter. We need a tarantula shelter!)
Dee thank you! I would like to see how many people would be interested in a project like this. After reading this thread through several times...I'm willing.
 

Gail

Arachnopixie
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A tarantula shelter :) I think I may practically be one of those already LOL.
So, WayneT, just what sort of thing do you have in mind? Obviously it isn't just the "don't buy so they won't profit" approach. Now, you'll have to forgive me as I was up late and haven't had my coffee yet but I had this wild hair of a thought - what if one could intercept all of the imported cheapy spiders that are the one's which are normally the abuse cases - buy them all up at wholesale to keep them out of the hands of the abusers - get them all in good shape and then sell them to those people who thought they were going to get them for a buck a peice (and therefore wouldn't care about keeping them in good conditions) for a higher price that would put them in a position where not only would they have to take care of what they got to see some profit, but they'd have to sell them for a decent enough price that little Joey knows nothing can't buy one for $5 at the show and let it starve to death on his bookshelf?
Ah, just a bizarre thought from a coffee starved brain...

Gail
 

WayneT

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Well I'll tell you what Gail, I'm only on my first cup at the moment...you're thinking pretty clear to me! :D
I was thinking in that same vein, be able to get the shipments at a wholesale price and get them healthy BEFORE they went to "market" so to speak. But I don't know how large of an effort monetarily, would be needed to stem the flood. Don't know where exactly to contact the "businessmen" that are so questionable. But starting there, for sure. I've even envisioned with that many tarantula acquisitons, starting a huge captive breeding program, raise the little ones and undercut the wholesalers at the knees. Sure, that's time and a huge amount of effort...but tarantula lovers are just crazy enough to make something like that work, don't you think?
 

Gail

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Well, I've often quoted something I read in a Tarantula book once that said when one is a breeder & seller of tarantulas it has to be something that is done for the true love of it because "investing in tarantulas is like investing in wine" with the reference obviously to the large amount of time required to grow and care for them.
In my searches for wholesale sources (due to the fact that I am going to start doing the local reptile show as what will likely be the only regular & quality T dealer) I have found at least one of the places where the cheap spiders come from - roseys are around $1.50 in quanitys over 100 - and I'm fairly sure this is the wholesaler that the vender whom I bought the T's in this thread gets his from. They are in Florida right where he lives and he always has whatever is on their current list. His stuff also appears to be in the same cups that he bought them in and so I suspect that the spiders are already in pretty bad shape when he gets them.
As for the undercutting on prices - in a way that's part of my plan at the show - I'm so tired of seeing the cheap starving spiders that in my own way, I guess I'm going to be doing something at least similar to Zelda's suggestion of "don't buy" - I plan to offer healthy, long term captives (many the self same T's that I buy looking very bad) at a price that is only a dollar or two more than the unhealthy ones for sale. Just enough to make back what I've put into them and a few quarters more (Please note that I don't consider my *time* in this case as an expense) People at a show always look around before they buy and so they will most likely buy my "rehab" roseys that are fat, healthy and active for $6 or $7 than pay $5 for the half death curled ones. That in itself will likely be enough to make the couple of dealers who go there on a regular basis with starved cheap T's stop buying them to sell at this one show at least, since they know with me there, they won't be able to sell them.
So where would we locate this giant T warehouse project :)

Gail
 

WayneT

Arachnoangel
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Gail, I think what you are doing is a very wonderful thing, and you should be commended for it. I wouldn't expect to be reimbursed for a pure labor of love either. Good job! :D
LOL...as to where this project would get it's legs? Good question. Any rich, generous land owners reading this? :)

Now...there is another thing I've considered while reading this discussion. It's a more radical approach, and may inflame some, but it's not meant to. What about petitioning CITES to place the G. rosea's on the protected species list?

Oh and I wish you all the best in your efforts, Gail.
 
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