US Dealer Involved in Smuggling revealed in court documents

[Maxrpm]

I'm wondering how much of this is just a witch hunt. Shipping internationally or across state lines illegally is still illegal and can't be justified by the severity of the punishment. Shipping USPS is just as illegal as shipping without proper documents internationally.

There is no honor among thieves. Every day in our legal system people are given immunity for their cooperation in legal matters. How many can honestly say that if they were doing something illegal and had the option of sitting in prison or help convict a co-conspirator and not receive jail or a fine that they would choose prison because it's the moral thing to do? If you wanted to be moral you wouldn't have broken the law in the first place. You would be stupid to choose prison over freedom. Both were equally guilty.

I haven't read the documents yet but if all Paul and Sven are guilty of are shipping CB tarantula's and not having the proper permits or fee's paid then really how can we burn them at the stake and call them bad people for trying to maximize their profits. Only people that should really be upset are the dealers like Ken that are hurt because of the lost sales due to the lower prices Paul can offer. I really don't see this hurting the hobby for exporting/importing legally. Things get smuggled into the country everyday and you don't see the government restricting legal items because of the illegal items. Cigarettes for example.

However if these were illegally captured then that is the real issue. If this is the case then I fully support burning at the stake. I have purchased from Paul on a few cases in the understanding that all were CB. He was very friendly, professional and all the tarantula's were very healthy so I assumed his statement on his website claiming all to be CB was true and have seen no proof that they were illegally caught. As for how he shipped has no bearing on myself since I don't breed and sell and can not persecute him for his shipping methods when I see it all through out the hobby using USPS.

I am not defending Paul and Sven's actions. What they did was wrong and should be held accountable. I am just pointing out that you can't call someone out for doing something that a lot of us do but only within our countries borders.

Now I ask, is this about being moral and never breaking the law for which none of us are guilty of or is this a mob mentality due to profit loss??

Like I said I have no gain in this discussion and am not bashing anyone one. This is all posted as food for thought.

 

[Krissy K]

as far as i can tell based on what's being said in here (i havent read the documents nor am i going to unless someone wants to copy/paste for me... i don't download stuff off the internet) Paul has an import/export license. If he received goods from a seller who did not have an export license, and he had no knowledge of this fact, how is he at fault? if i knew someone doing something like this, i'd probably rat on them. not to save my own butt, but because i believe in doing what's right. but then, i'd never buy from over the seas anyway, so i wouldn't need to worry about an export/import license. And I therefore wouldn't have to worry about having to rat someone out.
The thing about having this license is how much trouble you can get in. Because unless Paul can prove he had no knowledge that his supplier person did not have a license, he could get nabbed too. And it is hard to prove this, unless his supplier directly states in an email that he has a license, and paul chooses to believe it instead of investigating.
if you're going to import, DO YOUR RESEARCH on the person you are ordering from, so you can PREVENT THIS.
now in the instance that Paul had knowledge of the lack of export license, I will say i am disappointed in him. I really believe he's a good man and a great seller. And until proven otherwise, I will continue to believe this.
People, remember something about the American justice system: everyone is innocent until proven guilty. So just because a paper speculates and makes someone seem guilty, there is no way of knowing for sure unless there is a confession. So I will continue to respect paul until/unless our justice system proves him guilty. I don't care if people want to degrade me because of this decision, but until i have solid proof, I won't believe a thing. However, I do read reviews, and i do take into account others' opinions. But based on my previous experience with him, I believe he is innocent, and will continue to believe this until he is proven guilty.

 

[Singapore_Blue1]

as far as i can tell based on what's being said in here (i havent read the documents nor am i going to unless someone wants to copy/paste for me... i don't download stuff off the internet) Paul has an import/export license. If he received goods from a seller who did not have an export license, and he had no knowledge of this fact, how is he at fault? if i knew someone doing something like this, i'd probably rat on them. not to save my own butt, but because i believe in doing what's right. but then, i'd never buy from over the seas anyway, so i wouldn't need to worry about an export/import license. And I therefore wouldn't have to worry about having to rat someone out.
The thing about having this license is how much trouble you can get in. Because unless Paul can prove he had no knowledge that his supplier person did not have a license, he could get nabbed too. And it is hard to prove this, unless his supplier directly states in an email that he has a license, and paul chooses to believe it instead of investigating.
if you're going to import, DO YOUR RESEARCH on the person you are ordering from, so you can PREVENT THIS.
now in the instance that Paul had knowledge of the lack of export license, I will say i am disappointed in him. I really believe he's a good man and a great seller. And until proven otherwise, I will continue to believe this.
People, remember something about the American justice system: everyone is innocent until proven guilty. So just because a paper speculates and makes someone seem guilty, there is no way of knowing for sure unless there is a confession. So I will continue to respect paul until/unless our justice system proves him guilty. I don't care if people want to degrade me because of this decision, but until i have solid proof, I won't believe a thing. However, I do read reviews, and i do take into account others' opinions. But based on my previous experience with him, I believe he is innocent, and will continue to believe this until he is proven guilty.

I am sure all your questions are answered in the court documents. I have no opinion as I have not read them. That being said everyone that has read them has implied otherwise....Needless to say this is no good for our hobby period!

 

[Kirk]

as far as i can tell based on what's being said in here (i havent read the documents nor am i going to unless someone wants to copy/paste for me... i don't download stuff off the internet) Paul has an import/export license. If he received goods from a seller who did not have an export license, and he had no knowledge of this fact, how is he at fault? if i knew someone doing something like this, i'd probably rat on them. not to save my own butt, but because i believe in doing what's right. but then, i'd never buy from over the seas anyway, so i wouldn't need to worry about an export/import license. And I therefore wouldn't have to worry about having to rat someone out.
The thing about having this license is how much trouble you can get in. Because unless Paul can prove he had no knowledge that his supplier person did not have a license, he could get nabbed too. And it is hard to prove this, unless his supplier directly states in an email that he has a license, and paul chooses to believe it instead of investigating.
if you're going to import, DO YOUR RESEARCH on the person you are ordering from, so you can PREVENT THIS.
now in the instance that Paul had knowledge of the lack of export license, I will say i am disappointed in him. I really believe he's a good man and a great seller. And until proven otherwise, I will continue to believe this.
People, remember something about the American justice system: everyone is innocent until proven guilty. So just because a paper speculates and makes someone seem guilty, there is no way of knowing for sure unless there is a confession. So I will continue to respect paul until/unless our justice system proves him guilty. I don't care if people want to degrade me because of this decision, but until i have solid proof, I won't believe a thing. However, I do read reviews, and i do take into account others' opinions. But based on my previous experience with him, I believe he is innocent, and will continue to believe this until he is proven guilty.

If you wish clarification, I can email you the court documents. Or, just download the pdf's from Ken's links. There is really no excuse not to, especially if you're already surfing the net (and assuming you do keep your computer properly protected with relevant software).

 

[ftorres]

Hello All,
Does anyone knows, who else besides those names from people outside the country Paul mentioned???? Any other names here in CA or the US of A????

KrissyK you might want to go to a library and use their computers so you can download the court documents and read Paul's words put in paper, about how he ordered stuff without legal documentation. Everything you need to know is there, if you want to read it.

francisco

 

[Krissy K]

confusion...

The bigger issue is how this reflects on our hobby. We are a fringe group, that is not well understood by John Q Public. If the US banned Tarantula ownership tomorrow 90% of the population would be OK with it and probably actively happy. Illegal importation casts a shadow over the whole hobby. If that is Paul that he did a bad thing and hurt this hobby.

But PB didn't do this alone. he had MANY customers, that bought rare T's for often very low prices. Everyone that has ever complained that that rare T being too expensive, or bought that really cheap T even though it seems shady is also a little to blame for this.

We as a hobby need to police ourselves better before the government starts doing it for us.
We need to overcome the urge for instant gratification. We need to frown on someone undercutting prices because they are probably something not right about T's.
I am not trying to single out Paul Becker, but we as keepers need to be more aware of who we are buying from

matthias, could you really blame the customer if the customer had no idea of this possible violation? my sister and i ordered from hime two or three times and had no knowledge of this possibility. but now that we do we, or i, won't be ordering from him until it is cleared up. it puts me at risk of becoming too involved, even if i see him as innocent until proven guilty. i cannot risk what little reputation i have in this hobby i so dearly love.
of course i do not mean to seem or sound rude, i am simply curious.
i know that while the customers who bought from him are involved, ifthey had no prior knowledge of this accusation, could or should they really be punished? that is, if they are truly innocent, which i am. Because i truly believe he is a good seller. i take evidence into account... and hopefully this is just a misunderstanding.
too bad all the facts are starting to add up and persuade me to believe otherwise, but the justice system will prevail.

 

[MrDeranged]

Paul has an import/export license. If he received goods from a seller who did not have an export license, and he had no knowledge of this fact, how is he at fault?

The problem is not whether either of them have a license. The problem is that the shipment was purposely made to circumvent Customs and USFWS. Spiders sent internationally need to be declared to Customs and USFWS. This was not done here.












Posted from AB Mobile

 

[Krissy K]

If you wish clarification, I can email you the court documents. Or, just download the pdf's from Ken's links. There is really no excuse not to, especially if you're already surfing the net (and assuming you do keep your computer properly protected with relevant software).

i have no virus protection, except what windows provides me. but as my parents claim that we download viruses all the time, and my family has recently fallen victim to several viruses and hacking, i prefer to play it safe. please do copy/paste and email me. im not hugely computer savvy and have no way of protecting my computer (i supposedly have an antivirus program that my brother-in-law put on here for me, but i have found no evidence of it, so i do not do anything risky.) i don't "surf" the internet. i look up what i need to. I joined this site to be able to have information on the hobby i love, and also because RobC recommended it (im sure a lot of people hear about these sites through T hobbyists on YT) I do not like to download anything also because it takes up room on my laptop which i need for my nursing work.
my email is k_kretch1993@yahoo.com.
even with email i only open stuff from people i know (even colleges- i let my mom receive that information. Facebook, i won't open and YT stuff i wont open.) (i'm only 17 btw)

 

[AF Exotics]

Thank you Mr.Deranged

No misunderstanding ,just pure greed .Here is a hypothetical cost breakdown .


USFW Fees 3177(w/CITES Species) 239.00
Freight 1 pkg on average 400.00
Broker 250.00
ISC(Fee Airlines charge) 45.00
The above is what you would pay with no stock or loss of stock included .

verses EMS Shipping (maybe,sometimes less) 75.00


Pretty simple motivation

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

Point out

I would like to also point out as some have compared international shipping laws to local laws that it are not the same.

The international laws are there to help protect the animals. If you have to go through customs it keeps people from bringing in animals that are protected, endangered or even a threat to things like agriculture in our country.

The local USPS rules/laws are not there for the same reason. They are there to help protect the post man from being stung or bit by something. Its definitely not the same animal...pun intended. The severity is much different too. Its like the difference of rolling a stop sign or driving intoxicated, yes they both broke the law but one person is definitely doing something worse.

 

[xhexdx]

Shipping internationally or across state lines illegally is still illegal and can't be justified by the severity of the punishment. Shipping USPS is just as illegal as shipping without proper documents internationally.

Do you drive above the speed limit? Do you stop at stop signs for a full 3 seconds?

Do you download music from the Internet without paying for it?

If you answered 'Yes' to any of these things, do you feel like you're on the same plane as Paul?

 

[Maxrpm]

Do you drive above the speed limit? Do you stop at stop signs for a full 3 seconds?

Do you download music from the Internet without paying for it?

If you answered 'Yes' to any of these things, do you feel like you're on the same plane as Paul?

I'm guilty on all three accounts.. I'm just as guilty for breaking the law as is Paul.. Severity of the crime doesn't matter.. I broke the law. Thats why there are different punishments for each crime.

---------- Post added at 05:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:15 PM ----------

I would like to also point out as some have compared international shipping laws to local laws that it are not the same.

The international laws are there to help protect the animals. If you have to go through customs it keeps people from bringing in animals that are protected, endangered or even a threat to things like agriculture in our country.

The local USPS rules/laws are not there for the same reason. They are there to help protect the post man from being stung or bit by something. Its definitely not the same animal...pun intended. The severity is much different too. Its like the difference of rolling a stop sign or driving intoxicated, yes they both broke the law but one person is definitely doing something worse.

From what i've read.. they were captive bred and not wc. they are only guilty of saving money. Using USPS instead of a carrier that allows shipment of tarantula's is saving money.

I'm totally for the laws and regulations to keep the collection of critters from over harvesting. I only support purchasing of captive bred thus why I haven't purchased from pet store chains anymore.

I also don't use USPS for shipping tarantula's Last GBB I shipped for breeding cost me 75$ for over night through Fed Ex when it would have been cheaper through USPS. My GBB got ate and I received nothing in return. The punishments I could have received using USPS didn't justify what I could have received so that is why I spent more using a carrier that I assume accepts shipping tarantula's through the mail.

 

[Kirk]

From what i've read.. they were captive bred and not wc. they are only guilty of saving money. Using USPS instead of a carrier that allows shipment of tarantula's is saving money.

It matters not whether they were captive bred or wild caught. The law makes no distinction when it comes to international shipping. So no, they were not 'guilty' of saving money. Both parties knowingly circumvented Federal regulations. I can send you the other court documents that outline the charges given to Koppler.

 

[Tony]

When "this" stops being a business and returns back to being a hobby, I will be happy again.

Just how far back do you want it to go? I started in the late 90's and it was a business then. And that just when I found it on the web. before AB, back in the petbugs/DTP days....

monantony

---------- Post added at 05:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------

It matters not whether they were captive bred or wild caught. The law makes no distinction when it comes to international shipping. So no, they were not 'guilty' of saving money. Both parties knowingly circumvented Federal regulations. I can send you the other court documents that outline the charges given to Koppler.

Well ,as far as declaration goes for USFWS it doesn't matter per se. BUT if you have WC's in there its a different ballgame. Even if you declare the animals properly, if the USFWS and their 'experts' deem them WC, you lose anyway.
I know people who personally had stuff pulled, only to see the same rare species pop up in collections or for sale. And I mean animals at the time that NO ONE had. So always take the Official Government line with a grain of salt.
Can someone cut n paste the Rick West quote from this whole PB ting for me?
I didnt see it.
Thanks
Tony

 

[Kirk]

Can someone cut n paste the Rick West quote from this whole PB ting for me?
I didnt see it.
Thanks
Tony

You can download the statement from here.

 

[Tony]

You can download the statement from here.

Thanks . I was hoping for something more than ' I say so' from Rick....But he has the experience. I just want to know what tell tale signs you can look for , other than it being adult sized.....Would anyone in the class care to guess?

 

[paassatt]

Thanks . I was hoping for something more than ' I say so' from Rick....But he has the experience. I just want to know what tell tale signs you can look for , other than it being adult sized.....Would anyone in the class care to guess?

Maybe having an overall "beat-up" appearance, such as evidence of being forcibly removed from a burrow or evidence of exchanging many hands and being taken out of one box and into another or others?

 

[Maxrpm]

It matters not whether they were captive bred or wild caught. The law makes no distinction when it comes to international shipping. So no, they were not 'guilty' of saving money. Both parties knowingly circumvented Federal regulations. I can send you the other court documents that outline the charges given to Koppler.

I realize the law doesn't matter whether they were wc/cb. I was making the point that they were only trying to save money and in this case replying to Kens post that brown boxing internationally is the same as using USPS in that they weren't trying to smuggle illegally caught spiders but spiders cb without having the permits and paying the fees. I didn't mean guilty in a legal sense.

I have the up most respect for Ken and all the other dealers that do it legally. I think Ken and every other dealer that is in this hobby legally, have a right to bring this into the open and lay the smack down on those that break the law. I don't condone what Paul and Sven did. However I do see the difference in circumventing the law to save money vs circumventing the law to acquire illegally captured tarantula's. Both illegal but one is for greed the other is unacceptable on any level.

 

[paulatpetshop]

I got caught doing something wrong…I had little choice but to try to make good on my behavior.
lets not get this twisted..I had not been charged when I made that post last week, My stock is legitimate(I have papers to prove it), everything I had received illegally was taken by the FWS . The shipments I received from Sven occurred a long time ago.. My prices today do not indicate anything with regards to smuggling.. Just a lower mark up…I truly care about this hobby and love the Pet Industry. That’s why I made the care tips..
I was desperate with nothing to lose and my back was against the wall.. Moms house in financial distress and cancer..coupled by depression I was not thinking straight.
The pet business is all I know.. Like I said earlier.. I did not file the correct importation documents. This was a mistake and I take full responsibility. I am also facing the the same charges as Sven .. I hope that I do not loose my freedom and hope to restart my life again…If you guys don’t want me around, then so be it.. I will move on to a new career. I feel like I have contributed to this hobby in a positive way by doing everything I have done regarding this case and in other areas and I admit my mistakes.
The best thing can do at this point is to admit to every one of my wrong doing . People make mistakes..I am one of them. This doesn’t mean that I am a bad person, Just Human. All my stock is legal today ,my permits are valid and your understanding of my situation is appreciated.
I am sorry about the situation,, I have learned from this.. The posting from last week that I put up was my true feelings…..I realize there is competition here and that’s a good thing, but to discredit based on hearsay is a little low.. I am awaiting the federal court decision as to weather I will be charged, (if so.. it will be similar to Svens charges).…That’s the reason why there is no proof about me .... I am a good animal keeper and it’s one of the few things I am good at.. Most everything else in my life has been a disaster… I find refuge working with animals. Again, I am sorry about everything. I don’t blame people for hating me or calling me names or not wanting to buy from me….but one thing for sure.. My stock is legal and very well inspected by customs and FWS .
I am signing off for the next few days so I can deal with this and get my head straight..If you have questions I will answer them as best I can by “e-mail” when I get back.

 

[xenesthis]

biggest bunch of B<edit> - ever!!!

What a sob story! It wasn't just one shipment. It was multiple shipments over years with every dirty trick out there.

"Hearsay"??? The court docs that Ken posted are not "hearsay". How about the people Paul tried to smudge to save his own tail? We are all taking about it. Trying to name all his competitors to take the heat off what he had done, not just once, but multiple times. Pissed as hell somebody would stoop this low to save their own tail, not for one "mistake". 4 shipments from Thailand. The trade to Brazil. The Indo shipments......too many, too much....different names and addresses....a "mistake"??? It wasn't a mistake, it was a way of business and life. Nobody buy this crap!

"You owe the other dealers an apology not just the hobbyist." - I second this!

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