US Dealer Involved in Smuggling revealed in court documents

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

I know that i personally will not do business with someone who obviously lets greed and shady practices dictate they way they conduct themselves as a business owner.I also believe that paul would still be making these deals if he had not been caught which in my opinion tells me he cares nothing about the hobby or the hobbyist.People like this give the hobby a bad name and gamble the future of the hobby with every shady transaction they are involved with and show no remorse when caught but are quick to hand over others to save themselves while conducting business like nothing happened.

Well spoken. This has been one of the best post.



Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates:clap:

 

[Crotalus]

Are you guys upset because the petshop didnt pay for a regular shipment or are you upset how the animals was shipped? It seems you are ok with "brown boxing" as long its in US but not from overseas? Is that correct?
Interesting way on looking at this I must say.

 

[BrynWilliams]

Shipping Ts within a country (e.g. the US) isnt illegal. the concept of 'Brown Boxing' is shipping Ts without declaring the shipment of live animals across international borders which require permits/have restrictions etc which thus costs money and affects profit margins.

By not declaring them, you make the fiscal saving, but contravene many laws.

Are you guys upset because the petshop didnt pay for a regular shipment or are you upset how the animals was shipped? It seems you are ok with "brown boxing" as long its in US but not from overseas? Is that correct?
Interesting way on looking at this I must say.

 

[dianedfisher]

Are you guys upset because the petshop didnt pay for a regular shipment or are you upset how the animals was shipped? It seems you are ok with "brown boxing" as long its in US but not from overseas? Is that correct?
Interesting way on looking at this I must say.

Frankly, I'm way more upset about the fact that once he got caught receiving undocumented goods FROM SOMEONE ELSE, he encouraged an entirely different party to violate the same laws, and then offered them a "guest appearance" at his tarantula store and sent him a gratis airfare ticket to make sure he got arrested in the U.S. Further, for our government to allow him to walk away unscathed is a gross miscarriage of justice. The definition of justice is below.

Justice is the concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, fairness, or equity, along with the punishment of the breach of said ethics.

 

[High_Rolling_T]

over the past 2 years i have several times looked at Paul's site in search of my next invert pet purchase. the only reason i have not bought any animal from him is I didnt like the way the website looked. for some reason i always thought something was shady just from the layout of the site. im glad i went with my gut and bought my inverts from other dealers.
Charles

This sounds exactly like me. Something just seemed off about which is why I never purchased from Paul either. To be truthful, I think that it isn't exactly professional in appearance and layout(IMO), and that lead to subliminally feeling this way about Paul in general. Turns out, he wasn't professional.

Frankly, I'm way more upset about the fact that once he got caught receiving undocumented goods FROM SOMEONE ELSE, he encouraged an entirely different party to violate the same laws, and then offered them a "guest appearance" at his tarantula store and sent him a gratis airfare ticket to make sure he got arrested in the U.S. Further, for our government to allow him to walk away unscathed is a gross miscarriage of justice. The definition of justice is below.

Justice is the concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, fairness, or equity, along with the punishment of the breach of said ethics.

Honestly, the whole set-up of Sven was almost assuredly carried out by the government using Paul's name, so you cannot really blame Paul for that. However, it is the result of Paul ratting Sven out to save himself, so in the end it is all the same.

And even though that is what justice may be, that is not how our system works. If you're willing to play ball, you most likely you won't get the justice you deserve from the government's end. In the real world though, the justice will be partly served through what will be a major loss of business for him and perhaps even a loss of sources he can buy from since anyone else he might of dealt with now knows how quickly he will roll on them and might be wondering if he already did.

 

[Carrot]

Are you guys upset because the petshop didnt pay for a regular shipment or are you upset how the animals was shipped? It seems you are ok with "brown boxing" as long its in US but not from overseas? Is that correct?
Interesting way on looking at this I must say.

Shipping Ts within a country (e.g. the US) isnt illegal. the concept of 'Brown Boxing' is shipping Ts without declaring the shipment of live animals across international borders which require permits/have restrictions etc which thus costs money and affects profit margins.

By not declaring them, you make the fiscal saving, but contravene many laws.

I believe it is against the Lacey Act to ship animals without properly labeling what's inside the box. The USPS does not knowingly ship tarantulas, so people who ship USPS do not label the box to get around it instead of getting an approved account with other shipping companies (because it is cheaper/easier to just use USPS). If you check the classified section here, many people in the U.S. use USPS to ship. I think that's what he means.

Of course I could be wrong about this stuff, but that's just what I've read on these boards in the past.

 

[Singapore_Blue1]

I believe it is against the Lacey Act to ship animals without properly labeling what's inside the box. The USPS does not knowingly ship tarantulas, so people who ship USPS do not label the box to get around it instead of getting an approved account with other shipping companies (because it is cheaper/easier to just use USPS). If you check the classified section here, many people in the U.S. use USPS to ship. I think that's what he means.

Of course I could be wrong about this stuff, but that's just what I've read on these boards in the past.

Yes all of this is correct...My dad is a mail carrier and it is illegal to ship tarantuals through the USPS. Do many still ship using USPS sure...Should they?? Technically no...

 

[jwb121377]

I believe it is against the Lacey Act to ship animals without properly labeling what's inside the box. The USPS does not knowingly ship tarantulas, so people who ship USPS do not label the box to get around it instead of getting an approved account with other shipping companies (because it is cheaper/easier to just use USPS). If you check the classified section here, many people in the U.S. use USPS to ship. I think that's what he means.

Of course I could be wrong about this stuff, but that's just what I've read on these boards in the past.

The bigger issue here is one of an ethical nature and it is this; he was importing illegally so he could obtain lower prices thus allowing him to offer his stock at lower prices then the competitors. This would then takes business from the honest dealer since their prices are higher and give his business a dishonest edge. With all the added expense of having proper permits adds substantially to the over cost of the stock offered and drives pricing up. That is where my issue lies with this whole debacle; I want to support the honest hard working dealers that offer quality product and deserve to charge honest prices.

 

[esotericman]

Here is an interesting list of what dealers and names where associated with the "total sales" for the case.

This is only a document from the original trail. I have no facts nor opinions on the legality or implications of this list.

 

[matthias]

The bigger issue is how this reflects on our hobby. We are a fringe group, that is not well understood by John Q Public. If the US banned Tarantula ownership tomorrow 90% of the population would be OK with it and probably actively happy. Illegal importation casts a shadow over the whole hobby. If that is Paul he did a bad thing and hurt this hobby.

But PB didn't do this alone. He had MANY customers, that bought rare T's often for very low prices. Everyone that has ever complained about rare T being too expensive, or bought that really cheap T even though it seems shady, is also a little to blame for this.

We as a hobby need to police ourselves better, before the government starts doing it for us.
We need to overcome the urge for instant gratification. We need to frown on someone undercutting prices because they is probably something not right about T's.
I am not trying to single out Paul Becker, but we as keepers need to be more aware of who we are buying from

 

[selina20]

Here is an interesting list of what dealers and names where associated with the "total sales" for the case.

This is only a document from the original trail. I have no facts nor opinions on the legality or implications of this list.

Just been told to read this by a friend. Very interesting that my other halves name is on that list

 

[BrynWilliams]

Yeah i'm reading through this list knowing a large number of the UK entries listed there

I would like to check as to whether a CITES permit is required to move tarantulas within the EU? Can anyone clarify this for me?

I read the UK DEFRA website and it never gets down to the specifics on movement of CITES species really

Just been told to read this by a friend. Very interesting that my other halves name is on that list

---------- Post added at 07:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 PM ----------

I found it!

So Brachypelma are Appendix II

So permits are required if i'm reading correctly to move into and out of europe

however, movement within europe does NOT require permits as it is not deemed an international trade. Thus trading with Sven within the EU would be fine.

http://animalhealth.defra.gov.uk/CITES/applications/tradeineurope.html

 

[desertanimal]

The bigger issue is how this reflects on our hobby. We are a fringe group, that is not well understood by John Q Public. If the US banned Tarantula ownership tomorrow 90% of the population would be OK with it and probably actively happy. Illegal importation casts a shadow over the whole hobby. If that is Paul that he did a bad thing and hurt this hobby.

But PB didn't do this alone. he had MANY customers, that bought rare T's for often very low prices. Everyone that has ever complained that that rare T being too expensive, or bought that really cheap T even though it seems shady is also a little to blame for this.

We as a hobby need to police ourselves better before the government starts doing it for us.
We need to overcome the urge for instant gratification. We need to frown on someone undercutting prices because they are probably something not right about T's.
I am not trying to single out Paul Becker, but we as keepers need to be more aware of who we are buying from

I think there are some important and good points here, that we as consumers shouldn't turn a blind eye and should be thoughtful as consumers. That would help.

I think there's an important issue here that you haven't touched on, though. The big(gest) issue for me is that a willingness to break import laws suggests a willingness to break EXPORT laws or to participate in deal that has broken them. Now, as someone to has needed to follow both export and import laws just to carry fecal samples internationally (the animals certainly aren't hurt by THOSE leaving the country and faced no risk of harm by their collection either!), I know that sometimes export/import laws are just a pain and don't really actively protect wild populations in every case. But imperfect as they may be, they're the only thing that's out there attempting to protect wild populations from over-exploitation. If you're willing to break import laws to save a buck, I suspect you're also willing to break or overlook a business partner breaking export laws to make a buck. The idea of that is a BIG problem for me.

Thanks for posting this information.

 

[esotericman]

Just been told to read this by a friend. Very interesting that my other halves name is on that list

It is only the list of purchases which included CITES animals, worldwide. It, nor I state anything other than "it is a list". It was part of the documentation which included Rick West's Declaration used for sentencing. It maybe that every single sale on that list was "legal", I have not reviewed every court document for the court's ruling or opinions.

 

[Crotalus]

Frankly, I'm way more upset about the fact that once he got caught receiving undocumented goods FROM SOMEONE ELSE, he encouraged an entirely different party to violate the same laws, and then offered them a "guest appearance" at his tarantula store and sent him a gratis airfare ticket to make sure he got arrested in the U.S. Further, for our government to allow him to walk away unscathed is a gross miscarriage of justice. The definition of justice is below.

Justice is the concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, fairness, or equity, along with the punishment of the breach of said ethics.

Ok so if he got away with it - you wouldn't care? Just asking. Because either way - the dealers that are against this have their motive - the money that doesnt't go into their pockets.

I believe it is against the Lacey Act to ship animals without properly labeling what's inside the box. The USPS does not knowingly ship tarantulas, so people who ship USPS do not label the box to get around it instead of getting an approved account with other shipping companies (because it is cheaper/easier to just use USPS). If you check the classified section here, many people in the U.S. use USPS to ship. I think that's what he means.

Of course I could be wrong about this stuff, but that's just what I've read on these boards in the past.

He violated CITES by bringing in Brachypelma without CITES documents. As far as i know he wasn't called upon breaking Lacey Act. But I might be wrong.

The bigger issue is how this reflects on our hobby. We are a fringe group, that is not well understood by John Q Public. If the US banned Tarantula ownership tomorrow 90% of the population would be OK with it and probably actively happy. Illegal importation casts a shadow over the whole hobby. If that is Paul that he did a bad thing and hurt this hobby.

But PB didn't do this alone. he had MANY customers, that bought rare T's for often very low prices. Everyone that has ever complained that that rare T being too expensive, or bought that really cheap T even though it seems shady is also a little to blame for this.

We as a hobby need to police ourselves better before the government starts doing it for us.
We need to overcome the urge for instant gratification. We need to frown on someone undercutting prices because they are probably something not right about T's.
I am not trying to single out Paul Becker, but we as keepers need to be more aware of who we are buying from

More likely it wont change a thing about what the general public thinks of this hobby.

 

[BrynWilliams]

see my above post

if sven had purchased CITES species from the UK it would have been legal - if that helps

It is only the list of purchases which included CITES animals, worldwide. It, nor I state anything other than "it is a list". It was part of the documentation which included Rick West's Declaration used for sentencing. It maybe that every single sale on that list was "legal", I have not reviewed every court document for the court's ruling or opinions.

 

[BCscorp]

What a rat!!!!!
Plain and simple!!!
What ever happen to loyalty?
I got no love for snitches!!!

Agreed.
Don't buy spiders off the cheese eater.

 

[patrick86]

Originally Posted by dianedfisher:
Frankly, I'm way more upset about the fact that once he got caught receiving undocumented goods FROM SOMEONE ELSE, he encouraged an entirely different party to violate the same laws, and then offered them a "guest appearance" at his tarantula store and sent him a gratis airfare ticket to make sure he got arrested in the U.S. Further, for our government to allow him to walk away unscathed is a gross miscarriage of justice. The definition of justice is below.

Originally Posted by Crotalus:
Ok so if he got away with it - you wouldn't care? Just asking. Because either way - the dealers that are against this have their motive - the money that doesnt't go into their pockets.

Huh? If I'm reading her comment right she's more upset that Paul went after someone other than the shipper who sent the original package that got him busted. The Feds caught Paul accepting a package that was illegally shipped from Taiwan. Who decided to go after Sven? Why not go after the person from Taiwan?

Plus, Paul did get away with it. He isn't facing any legal consequences from this is he? Didn't he decide to assist the Feds in nabbing Sven to avoid any consequences from his own illegal activity?

 

[jbm150]

I've been so tempted to buy from Paul and timing more than anything has played a part in keeping me from doing so. I never considered he'd be one to be involved in illegal smuggling, though I guess I should have been paying closer attention.

There are definitely degrees of wrongness. Anyone that's shipped through USPS or any of the other carriers have been wrong for doing so. It's against the rules and we violate them often. But what other recourse do we have? This hobby would be vastly different if it didn't take place. Not that it makes it any more right though, we're still guilty of wrongful doing. But international smuggling is a different level entirely. Bypassing the legal ways of doing things is rooted in greed, to save money. Dealers have an avenue of bringing these spiders that is perfectly legal and right (a country should be aware of what animals are passing its borders and why; though I suppose states should too but apparently in most cases they don't care....)). I have no problem paying high shipping costs because it benefits the safety of the animal (Express) and I certainly wouldn't have a problem paying even higher if it meant I wasn't breaking any rules.

Anyways, I don't have much to contribute beyond my own disappointment in Paul and Sven and this case. More than anything I just want to subscribe to the thread as it's fascinating and probably one of the few long threads that hasn't erupted in a firefight.


At least yet lol

 

[kylestl]

Huh? If I'm reading her comment right she's more upset that Paul went after someone other than the shipper who sent the original package that got him busted. The Feds caught Paul accepting a package that was illegally shipped from Taiwan. Who decided to go after Sven? Why not go after the person from Taiwan?

Plus, Paul did get away with it. He isn't facing any legal consequences from this is he? Didn't he decide to assist the Feds in nabbing Sven to avoid any consequences from his own illegal activity?

Paul was bait, I like the idea of charging him and just saying hey look, you will look much better in the court if you help us catch the guy shipping them too you but nope, paul walks free and accuses others of wrong doing.