T. Blondi Meets unlucky Anole !

[xgrafcorex]

another perspective

i also was thinking about what i eat. when i go to the store i want to see a nice fresh red steak...not a dull redish gray steak. i know the spider isn't as picky but thats just one way of looking at it. i guess its not too relevant to spiders... hah just when i was buying the steaks i thought about this thread.

 

[becca81]

if i can think of one reason why live is better than dead, do i win?

here is my reason:

as far as i can tell, all living creatures with more than say, a million cells, have *other* creatures living inside them, bacteria and other bigger organisms. when any animal dies it starts to rot. rotting is, in part, these bacteria and what not blooming, as the host animals living processes no longer keep them in check. any dead animal has a much larger potential of having some gnarly growth, even if frozen... unless it is brought down to like -100*F, as lots of little nasties can surving cold in hibernation like states.

F/T as so many ppl like to tout as this great thing is a dead animal left to warm up and further rot, that you want your pet to eat...

and that is one good reason why live is better that F/T

If my memory serves me correctly, I believe it has already been mentioned that the nutrient loss is, within a certain time frame, negligible.

 

[Apocalypstick]

what a worthless thread this has turned out to be, everyone has an opinion and does what they feel is right for there pets, well most of the people out there do.

Hmmm, I don't think any thread is "useless". You never know when you might learn something new or see a different opinion that changes yours

 

[stewartb]

Nightbreed and Crunchie.

Keep up the good work. Totally agree with you. :clap:

Regards,

Stew.

 

[Python]

As I have stated before, I will continue to offer live as long as I am getting free pinkies. I see no reason to change since after all this time I have never had anything bad happen to any of my T's. I don't care about people whining about morality and ethics. I took on a responsibility and I don't see any reason to be lax. If I don't have crix, and I do have pinkies, guess what? I don't see a point in killing something that is about to die anyway. Since I have on occasion watched, I have noticed that when live pinkies are taken, they stop fighting almost immediatley. Maybe venom has some sort of effect on them huh? Maybe it does something like, oh I don't know, kill them quickly? They are rather small and there is alot of it being pumped in. So maybe, just maybe, all this suffering that you people keep talking about, isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Of course I'm sure that everyone has some scientific evidence that they are willing to conceal to prove that the suffering carries on long after death. It doesn't matter anyway since I would rather use a T than a mouse trap.

 

[InvertConvert]

Even though I am really new to all this, it seems to me that some are really making a mountain out of a molehill. In the wild they have no one hand feeding already deceased animals to them. It is part of their nature to hunt and feed themselves. Even though we supply the meal it still seems like it is more natural for them to kill it themselves.I don't know about you but I also think that for us to kill pinkies, anoles, etc.( prior to feeding)What is really the difference in letting them do it?..It still is just as inhumane correct?..A little more so if you ask me, I mean for a small pinkie we would have to to crush them to kill them wouldn't we? How inhumane is that? Lets remember these are wild creatures that we have made into "pets" just because we have so far succeded at doing so that hasn't domesticated them in any way, they are still wild.

 

[jbrd]

Even though I am really new to all this, it seems to me that some are really making a mountain out of a molehill. In the wild they have no one hand feeding already deceased animals to them. It is part of their nature to hunt and feed themselves. Even though we supply the meal it still seems like it is more natural for them to kill it themselves.I don't know about you but I also think that for us to kill pinkies, anoles, etc.( prior to feeding)What is really the difference in letting them do it?..It still is just as inhumane correct?..A little more so if you ask me, I mean for a small pinkie we would have to to crush them to kill them wouldn't we? How inhumane is that? Lets remember these are wild creatures that we have made into "pets" just because we have so far succeded at doing so that hasn't domesticated them in any way, they are still wild.

i agree with ya.

 

[nightbreed]

Out of all the argument for or against, I haven't seen anything scientific for either side. so if it's alright by everyone, how about we leave science out of it (that is until someone can come up with any scientific evidence to support either side).

I only asked for scientific evidence because Jbrd stated as fact, that live food was better, if its a fact there must be some evidence, I openly admitted that I have no proof my way is better, but that said my animals are thriving, so live vertebrate prey seems to be unnecessary.

night you mentioned the nutrient dust for crickets and such .... i have no experience with it myself but ive read that since the t's pierce the outer layer and do the regurgitation and then just slurp out the liquid inside...most of the dust isn't taken in. then again i haven't found any bits of cricket remains after 4 or 5, so maye mine did eat the whole thing.

Not for crickets (gutloading them is the best option) but for F/T mice/rats.

T's leave the exo-skeleton because they cant digest it, I've never fed verts to my T's, dead or otherwise (I dont think its necessary, and could even be detrimental to your T's health) so I dont know what would be left (I'm guessing bones and some fur), when I said about vit powder I was thinking of snakes and such (forgot this thread was about feeding a T, and started talking about live feeding in general, my bad) because a T is going to get most of its food and vitamins in handy dandy invert form, if you want to get your T some good food gutload some cricks or roachs.

i'd want a chance to go down fighting!

i'd want my final chance to hurt the world for hurting me!

but i might be a particularily bitter little mouse

...fighting or smothered to death in playmates!

Each to their own
And if we were talking about a wild scenario where there would be a chance of escape I'd agree with you.

if i can think of one reason why live is better than dead, do i win?

here is my reason:

as far as i can tell, all living creatures with more than say, a million cells, have *other* creatures living inside them, bacteria and other bigger organisms. when any animal dies it starts to rot. rotting is, in part, these bacteria and what not blooming, as the host animals living processes no longer keep them in check. any dead animal has a much larger potential of having some gnarly growth, even if frozen... unless it is brought down to like -100*F, as lots of little nasties can surving cold in hibernation like states.

F/T as so many ppl like to tout as this great thing is a dead animal left to warm up and further rot, that you want your pet to eat...

and that is one good reason why live is better that F/T

Yep you could be right, but as feeders are frozen so soon after death and are then defrosted and fed to the predator in question straight away, I wouldnt of thought it would be a major issue.
That stiil leaves freshly pre-killed prey, whats wrong with humanely "offing" the prey item yourself before feeding?

I will continue to offer live as long as I am getting free pinkies.

So is it just a $$ thing?

I don't see a point in killing something that is about to die anyway. Since I have on occasion watched, I have noticed that when live pinkies are taken, they stop fighting almost immediatley. Maybe venom has some sort of effect on them huh? Maybe it does something like, oh I don't know, kill them quickly? They are rather small and there is alot of it being pumped in. So maybe, just maybe, all this suffering that you people keep talking about, isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

You dont see the point in killing them or you cant be bothered? or maybe your to squimish?
That said pinkies are a bit of a grey area for me, because like you say they are so small and fragile they would be killed very quickly.

Even though I am really new to all this, it seems to me that some are really making a mountain out of a molehill. In the wild they have no one hand feeding already deceased animals to them. It is part of their nature to hunt and feed themselves. Even though we supply the meal it still seems like it is more natural for them to kill it themselves.I don't know about you but I also think that for us to kill pinkies, anoles, etc.( prior to feeding)What is really the difference in letting them do it?..It still is just as inhumane correct?..A little more so if you ask me, I mean for a small pinkie we would have to to crush them to kill them wouldn't we? How inhumane is that? Lets remember these are wild creatures that we have made into "pets" just because we have so far succeded at doing so that hasn't domesticated them in any way, they are still wild.

They are not in the wild so those rules do not apply.
Why would it be more inhumane for someone to quickly kill a mouse by seperating its spinal column from its skull, or using carbon dioxide to put them to sleep? How is that more inhumane :?

 

[InvertConvert]

Originally posted by NIGHTBREED They are not in the wild so those rules do not apply.
Why would it be more inhumane for someone to quickly kill a mouse by seperating its spinal column from its skull, or using carbon dioxide to put them to sleep? How is that more inhumane :?[/QUOTE]


Lets think about what you just said shall we?..seperate spinal column from skull?..hmm..yeah sounds harmless to me. OUCH!!! sounds just as painful as anything a T could do. OK maybe carbon dioxide would be easier on the thing but really for the most part who wants or has time to mess with all that, not to mention when bitten it is paralized anyways and I am sure isn't feeling to much. But again thats just my opinion

 

[becca81]

Lets think about what you just said shall we?..seperate spinal column from skull?..hmm..yeah sounds harmless to me. OUCH!!! sounds just as painful as anything a T could do.

Seperating the spinal column from the skull = Instant Death. This is pretty much what mousetraps do (breaking the neck).

 

[nightbreed]

Lets think about what you just said shall we?..seperate spinal column from skull?..hmm..yeah sounds harmless to me. OUCH!!! sounds just as painful as anything a T could do. OK maybe carbon dioxide would be easier on the thing but really for the most part who wants or has time to mess with all that, not to mention when bitten it is paralized anyways and I am sure isn't feeling to much. But again thats just my opinion

Seperating the spinal column results in almost instant death, if the spinal cord is severed there is sudden loss of nerve supply to the entire body, including the heart and blood vessels. The victim suffers a sudden and massive drop in blood pressure, which will lead to immediate demise. known as "spinal shock"

Just because something is paralyzed by a toxin does not necessarily mean it doesnt feel pain. I'm pretty sure there are toxins that will paralyze but leave the victim aware of their surroundings and able to feal pain. I think Curare is one :?

 

[Czalz]

Well, I can see the reasoning for offering some animals in captivity pre killed prey(lions, tigers, alligators, etc.) as offering live prey would possibly spin their natural tendacy to hunt into overdrive, and thus endangering everyone who comes in contact with them(even more). If we were to say the same for inverts; that is that offering pre killed prey had a positive effect on temperment, then I would say that pre killed is the best choice. Without such, or similar recommendations as reasoning for offering pre killed vs. live prey, this argument will never end because different people view things in different ways. It is also very hard to convince others of the morality of this subject because animals are viscious in the wild, and often what most people would consider brutal.

 

[InvertConvert]

Are you rallying for PETA or what?..Really it doesn't make a darn to me how the thing dies. It is a rodent and its purpose in life is to be somethings dinner. I am sure if they were given the option to be something else in the world they would ,but considering they had no choice this is what they are and thats what they are for. So I say to all the T's (with owners who really care less about if the darn thing is alive when feeding) Bon Appetit

 

[nightbreed]

Are you rallying for PETA or what?..Really it doesn't make a darn to me how the thing dies. It is a rodent and its purpose in life is to be somethings dinner. I am sure if they were given the option to be something else in the world they would ,but considering they had no choice this is what they are and thats what they are for. So I say to all the T's (with owners who really care less about if the darn thing is alive when feeding) Bon Appetit

Nope PETA is the work of the Devil. I just dont see any reason to inflict unnecessary suffering on our feeders.

Your lack of empathy for your fellow animals is quite disturbing. A fine example of human arrogance :clap:

I look forward to your future thread "Damn, a mouse killed my T" or if the rumours are true "My T's fangs fell out"
keep feeding live mice and sooner or later one of your T's will suffer for your "entertainment/laziness".

 

[Python]

So is it just a $$ thing?

You dont see the point in killing them or you cant be bothered? or maybe your to squimish?

keep feeding live mice and sooner or later one of your T's will suffer for your "entertainment/laziness".
__________________

First of all it is not a money thing. I get them free for a few of my snakes. The ones that don't get eaten by snakes.....oh well I think you can guess.
Secondly it sounds like someone else is the squimish one... not me.
Lastly just a quick question. How will the T's "suffer" for "entertainment/laziness"? I was under the impression that a pinky is defenseless. To me that would mean that there is no way for it to either escape or fight back. So which is it? And as far as putting a pepsis wasp in with them, it seems you think that a mouse (which I do not feed anything with grown ones) has the capacity to inflict damage so it seems that people are putting predators in with their T's. So far I have not heard one convincing argument either way (pro or con). When is someone going to the contradictions and come up with a real reason to feed live or not to feed live. I already stated why I do it and it has nothing to do with laziness (I feed my slings cricket legs that the crix do not volunteer) or entertainment. It's simply a matter of availibility and the fact that it doesn't matter how they die cause dead is dead. I've never had a problem with it nor have I ever heard of anyone having a problem (other than a holier than thou problem) so I don't see what difference it makes. That said I am still waiting to see what difference it makes so if anybody can come up with anything let me know.

 

[nightbreed]

First of all it is not a money thing. I get them free for a few of my snakes. The ones that don't get eaten by snakes.....oh well I think you can guess.
Secondly it sounds like someone else is the squimish one... not me.
Lastly just a quick question. How will the T's "suffer" for "entertainment/laziness"? I was under the impression that a pinky is defenseless. To me that would mean that there is no way for it to either escape or fight back. So which is it? And as far as putting a pepsis wasp in with them, it seems you think that a mouse (which I do not feed anything with grown ones) has the capacity to inflict damage so it seems that people are putting predators in with their T's. So far I have not heard one convincing argument either way (pro or con). When is someone going to the contradictions and come up with a real reason to feed live or not to feed live. I already stated why I do it and it has nothing to do with laziness (I feed my slings cricket legs that the crix do not volunteer) or entertainment. It's simply a matter of availibility and the fact that it doesn't matter how they die cause dead is dead. I've never had a problem with it nor have I ever heard of anyone having a problem (other than a holier than thou problem) so I don't see what difference it makes. That said I am still waiting to see what difference it makes so if anybody can come up with anything let me know.

Firstly, if you are going to quote me dont be so selective, I also said "pinkies are a bit of a grey area for me, because like you say they are so small and fragile they would be killed very quickly" so I think I kind of agreed with you over the pinky thing

Secondly, not squimish at all, I have the balls to kill my feeders to save them a bit of suffering, its quite easy to break a mouses neck *shrug*

Ok so you only feed pinkies, and yes I agree its not like a pinky is going to savage your T but there is a worry at the mo that feeding to many verts will affect your T's health and possibly cause it to lose its fangs, but I wasn't directing the comment about T's suffering at you and your ill fated pinkies.

I think its really quite sad that you cant see any reason to feed pre-kill, at the end of the day it doesnt make any difference to your predators but it makes a lot of difference to the prey, why feed live when you can take a couple of minutes and save an animal a bit of suffering.

I've given reasons for not feeding live and I've given reasons for not feeding to many verts, your reasons seem to be, Ive got them so I'm gonna feed em, and dead is dead doesnt matter how it happens, not really very convincing arguments.

P.S its not a holier than thou thing, I just cant abide wanton cruelty :wall:

If you had to die would you choose shot in the head or tortured to death?

P.P.S When I said about the pepsis wasp it was because people tend to say feeding live is more "natural" and I was making the point that being nailed by a pepsis wasp is "natural" but people dont seem to want to simulate that part of nature, I was not comparing a mouse to a pepsis wasp

 

[becca81]

it seems you think that a mouse (which I do not feed anything with grown ones) has the capacity to inflict damage so it seems that people are putting predators in with their T's....

So far I have not heard one convincing argument either way (pro or con). When is someone going to the contradictions and come up with a real reason to feed live or not to feed live....

From another thread... Click Here

Seeing this was enough reason for me to never feed any vertebrate to my Ts that could bite back.

 

[David DeVries]

I think if your T is big enough to make quick work of large crickets or other invertebrates then small lizards and pinkie mice might be the way to give it a "full course" meal once in awhile. I'm sure they enjoy a feast.

If the T will take pre-killed I think I would go with that just to keep my arachnid from taking any harm. For now, I will stick to crickets as mine are all small.

 

[nightbreed]

I think if your T is big enough to make quick work of large crickets or other invertebrates then small lizards and pinkie mice might be the way to give it a "full course" meal once in awhile. I'm sure they enjoy a feast.

If the T will take pre-killed I think I would go with that just to keep my arachnid from taking any harm. For now, I will stick to crickets as mine are all small.

I agree our T's do need a good feast every now and then, bless em, but I go with the gutloaded roachs, also my Chaco seems very fond of large hoppers

 

[Python]

I feed live verts. That's my story. I see no reason not too. I don't sit around and ooooh and aaaah while they eat, I do not do it because that's what they do in nature, and I don't do it to be cruel. I do it because I have the extra pinkies, my T's won't take prekilled, I've never had one lose any body part in the 10 plus years that I've kept them, and they do eat them. I've noticed the first ones to chime in on threads like this are the ones that are against. Why not just leave it alone? Why post if all you're going to do is flame someone for the way they feed a T? It's been said before and it hasn't changed anything yet. What's the point of a negative comment if you know before hand that it will do absolutely no good whatsoever? If you feel you must post something, why not post something that will make a difference, like if someone is keeping their T in a detrimental manner? If it isn't hurting the T just leave it alone. The prey are supposed to get hurt so I think that is a moot point, death is not benificial to any animal. I know that what I am saying is falling on deaf ears and I know there will be more posts on this but it is worth a try anyway. Rehashing the same old same old doesn't work. If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got. The definition of futility is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. What result is everybody aiming for here? All I am saying is, we are all in the hobby together so we should try to encourage one another and teach one another. Can we try that for a little while?