Poecilotheria

[Ephesians]

I agree with Brandon, let's just cut this short ( I think that is an understatement...lol ). We've all said our peace and James has already made his decision ( which was the entire point of this thread ). Let's quit being personal and just let bygons be bygons. This is my last post in this thread.

Marcus

 

[Inuleki]

Originally posted by Buspirone
I was around when we used 5-1/4" disks, beleived if a modem was to exceed 9600 baud the phone wires would melt and we used BBS's to exchange information.

hey, this is for everyone who thinks that they are really old for remembering things like that... i'm 21, just this saturday, and i remember all of that.... hell, i had a 2400 baud modem, ran around on bbs's and was shocked when i didn't have to use bootdisks for my tandy 1000 anymore...

 

[safetypinup]

Originally posted by Nixy

The Avergae 13 year olds room is NOT fort knox!

Amen to that.....

If your Going to give advice to a 13 year old PLEASE NOTE that a 13 year old will read the words of what they consider an "expert" and move on it Very Often.
If your going to Give advice to a 13 year old In This Kind of situation PLEASE. for gods Sake add a note or two of caution.

I seriously hope you are not referring to me, here. BUT, in the event that you were.....
A "word or two of caution" from my original post:
I am in no way saying that everyone should go out and get a Pokie as their first tarantula. In fact, I advised someone against a P. regalis just last week. I *do* think that they make excellent additions to collections that already contain quick arboreals (Psalmopoeus would be a GREAT example of this).

...and...

I do agree with those that have stated that Poecilotheria are better suited for advanced keepers...

to name a couple....

Think about the Whole picture and Stop twisting up the words of people that might have a bit more concerned about a little child and what MIGHT POSSABLY happen then a spider.

Sorry, but that was out of line, and I think *you're* twisting *my* words, here, if you want to get nit-picky about it.
Don't get me wrong---I agree with a lot of your points made in previous posts here, and I DO agree that, as a mother, I would be concerned for my 13 year-old if she started keeping potentially "hot" pets without my knowledge. However.....
James has indicated that his father is also at least somewhat interested in the hobby, so I assume he would be doing all the necessary research and would make the final decision.

Anyway...That's it. I'm out of this mud-slinging contest
I offered my opinion, and I SINCERELY APOLOGIZE if I offended anyone or perhaps didn't make myself clear in certain areas.

Besides, you all know the saying....
"Opinions are like assholes............"

Good night

 

[Phillip]

some clarification...

CM If you read back over my post I never said go ahead and do it. As a matter of fact I said that pokies were better suited for the m ore experienced. I do not feel this to be due to the venom but due to the speed with which they move and the difficulty in controling one on the run.

And yes I have seen the antecdotal story of the indian girl. This story has never been shown to have any truth to it whatsoever. Does this mean it isn't possible? Not at all if someone had an allergic reaction then they could have a bad time from a bite. But then again as stated before bees kill far more folks than these things do and I don't see all the allergic folks I know living their lives in a bubble to avoid the potential stings when going outside.

Swifty is not a large guy by any stretch and I know for a fact that he has taken a few pokie bites with virtually no bad effects at all except for some discomfort. I have also known several others to take bites from them and be fine as well. Then there are the reports of how terrible the pain was and so on. Sorry but I have to chalk those up to the wuss factor. Does it hurt? Sure it does. Is it as bad as some make it out to be? I seriously doubt it. Have I been bitten yet to test this theory? No but that would be because of the fact that unless you really upset them by pinning them against you or restricting their movement chances are they are going to run and not bite. I have had large pokies for years now and never have I have one try to bite me. I have instead have them behave as shy creatures that merely wish to be left alone. I have had them run up my arm by accident only to have to catch them off my own back as well as having held them just for the sake of doing it and never have I had one act like it had any desire to bite me.

Again I don't bring this up to further the debate I just feel that this genus is grossly over rated in the dangerous department by people that mistake their quick movements to get away with aggression.

Phil

 

[conipto]

I am 24 years of age. I keep two specimens of Poecilotheria. And quite honestly, I fear them. They are pretty, but even at their not grown size, they are both in enclosures far more than they require. I can't say I am a very expierienced keeper, just a bored, and well read one, who's picked up his fair share of knowledge on the way.

My opinion in this somewhat echoes the mainstream - It's not what you can or cannot keep safely, it's what your young and by default inquisitive siblings can or can not keep. James, I think you more than capable. You've got Psalmopeous genus, and they are just as quick, if not quicker IME. However, the prettier and the more 'do not touch' something is labeled, the more likely it is to be gotten into by a younger child. "Don't touch" means "This is the greatest thing in the world" to very young children, in my own limited childraising experience.

That said, Look at what James has in his collection. As has been pointed out before, they are all spiderlings. I'd assume he'd continue the trend and get a Poecilotheria spiderling. That, in my opinion, helps with the learning curve (Using Chip's Trial by Fire method ). James has kept some very fast and some aggressive species now, though just short of how long I have. I look at it this way: In the time I have to maintain my own collection, I have spent an obscene amount of time observing them, learning about them, etc. I think I've become a pretty good keeper. Now, put that into someone James' age's shoes, without any real responsibilities like a full time job, children, etc.. I know if it were me, I probably would have tripled the time spent observing and learning. So, it is my opinion, that our young member James can take the meanest, nastiest species out there, as long as he gets to watch it become the meanest, nastiest species out there. His posts over the last few months have reflected a great capacity for both reasoning and memorization.

However, I say nothing for James' siblings. Their age-apparent curiousity, coupled with James' possibly inherited thirst for knowledge spells only trouble in my book. I stick with your choice to ask Dad, James, and commend you for it.

Bill

 

[safetypinup]

Re: some clarification...

Originally posted by Phillip
Again I don't bring this up to further the debate I just feel that this genus is grossly over rated in the dangerous department by people that mistake their quick movements to get away with aggression.

Phil

Couldn't have said it better myself, Phil.

Exactly the point I was trying to make.

 

[Mojo Jojo]

In the words of The Merriam Webster Dictionary:

accident: 1: an event occurring by chance or unintentionally

accidental: 1: happening unexpectedly or by chance 2: happening without intent or through carelessness


My Rant:
Nobody intentionally gets bit by a tarantula. If one gets bit, it is an accident. No matter how good a person is, no matter what kind of planning is involved, accidents happen.

An accident could happen to a 13 year old just as easily as a 26 year old and easily as a 52 year old.

Yes experience makes a difference, however it doesn't guarantee that an accident won't happen.

I have seen bite reports of pokies on adults. Severe -- hospitallizing pain in at least one instance.

I have not seen a bite report of a pokie on a juvenile. But one has to surmise that the effects would be more profound on a smaller individual.

So although I won't own one and therefore won't recommend anyone else own one, I will go the extra mile and be adimate that a juvenile not own one

Jon

 

[Steve Nunn]

Hey James,
Well done! When taking maturity in mind you have risen well above your age, proving, it is irrellevant in many circumstances (as you have proven, all the other youngens owe you, they were doing a terrible job just kidding folks).

Personally, I couldn't care less how old a keeper is, anyone can keep T's, so long as they know how to handle a situation gone wrong and how to remedy it(it just so happens that it may take many years to fully grasp this, ask yourselves, how long have you been at it?). CM has been making damn good points here, along with Nixy who obviously has her head screwed on right. A lot of the younger crowd are raising good points too, it's just that they weren't really on point with what CM and the others were saying. I agree totally that to say any spider is a dangerous monster is wrong, but some do need high levels of respect, with a good chunk of knowledge thrown in.

To all those who belive a pokie is a sweet, quiet little tyke,it is for the most part. This is not the issue though, they will also bite if threatened enough and this is the point. The other defensive displays from so-called "passive" spiders you people are seeing come from T's that are reknowned "finger slappers", they're all too happy to slap a foe with their legs but if you actually give these T's a chance, they will back down. Please don't confuse a mere slap with an actual attempt to bite, they are entirely two different things. Might I say the reason you haven't seen a defensive display from a pokie is because they don't bother, they'll just run first (obvious option for a fast arboreal), then bite if they feel threatened. They don't need to finger tap, they possess strong venom for a theraphosid(sorry guys, but it is a fact).

Don't get me wrong, I don't feel any tarantula is a nasty biting monster, out to attack given the first opportunity. The reality is some species are prone to bite if cornered and not just whack what they can with their legs to put on a good show. This show has obviously got a lot of you guys confused. I admit it may take a bit to actually get a pokie into a bite first response, but they will eventually get into this mood if pushed, and an escaped pokie (one of the worst case scenarios) is a pushed spider.

Come on people, old worlders are reknowned for bad behaviour tantrums. And for a lot of you guys to actually say that we dinosaurs are scaring people is wrong, we're just saying look at the facts. I read some post before about how somebody had known of pokie bites that haven't resulted in envenomations, I also know of funnel-webs bites that haven't, but I would never for one second recommend anyone handle a funnel-web.

The whole point here is look at the worst that could happen, then read the bite reports. Fact is any spider may bite, so are you willing to put up with the symptoms of that bite? You've all seen how quickly ANY T can get a quick nip in if it wishes, so please don't say something like "but they never try with me", they've tried with others or else those reports (even from the Brachypelma spp.) wouldn't exist.

I'm glad James had the maturity to look past all the heat in this thread and think twice before buying a spider that commands high respect. Good for you my friend, you're already on the way to experienced keeping, wisdom is half the trick.

I'm sure you'll know when you're ready for more old worlders

Cheers,
Steve

 

[danread]

Im not going to say my full views on this topic, all the possible arguments have already been put forward many times. I just wanted to comment on Redwine's (Phillips) last post. You completely illustrated the reason why some of the more experience keepers are urging caution before buying a pokie, by saying that you have had them run up your arm by accident on occasion. This completely proves their point, you give the impression of being a very experienced keeper, and you have had them escape onto your body. It's not inconcievable that a situation like this could easily lead to a bite. A bite on a 13 year old could prove to be severe or even fatal in a worst case scenario due to the lower body mass, fact (although it's also concievable that there would be no bad effects). There haven't been a plethora of pokie bite reports because keeping tarantulas is still a relatively new hobby, i can guarantee that as more pokies are kept, more bite reports will surface. Thats not a reason not to keep them, maybe just a reson not to keep them when your still only 13. I see no problem with a more experienced 17 year old keeping a pokie, but as has been said before, a few years makes a huge diffference, especially when you are young.

Dan.

Btw, i'm only 21, so i'm not writing from an 'oldies' point of view

 

[The_Phantom]

When I get my pokie, I am NOT NOT NOT handling it EVER, and I will be using extreme care and caution when feeding and cleaning. *very very long pair of tongs or tweezers* Its one spider I dont want an "accident" with, like getting lose, or getting bitten. Noooo thanx.

 

[Martin H.]

.


Several (most?) Poeciotheria bite reports are from experienced people – which got lazy with this genus.
It happend during handling or underestimateing the genus. For example I know one, who is keeping tarantulas since about 12 - 15 years and also keeping Poecilotheria ssp. since several year. He was cleaning the cage of a P. regalis and relied to his experience that it is not an aggressive species but very shy who perfers to flee. But this time during he worked in the cage, she suddenly rushed out of her retreat and bit him in his hand! => NEVER underestimate a Poecilotheria!
After hearing this story, I started to be more carefull and stopped working with my bare hands in Poecilotheria tanks (which I did in the past because I am also of the opinion that they are not aggressive but shy and skittish) and prefer a pair of long tweezers.


And another "nice" story:
A friend of mine is at the moment writing an article about his experiences with a Poecilotheria bite: His neighbour, also a tarantula keeper, got bitten by an adulte male of Poecilotheria fasciata. At the beginning he got very euphoric like under drugs, but suddenly he turned in the opposite and collapsed. The emergency physician which they called wasn't able to get him back in a approachable/addressable condition and took him to hospital to the station for intensive care! ...good luck he recovered and survived!
The article they are writing will include the information from the reports of the emergency physician and the hospital.

The victim was a full grown man – "have fun" when an immature human (= kid) get's bitten!

Maybe there are hundreds killed by bee stings or "accidents" with dogs, but a person killed by a tarantula bite would get MUCH MORE attention and the whole hobby would get a lot of (more) bad reputation! Is it worth that?

I think one shouldn't demonise the whole genus but also not underestimate it! The truth is somewhere between!


And two citations from www.spiderpharm.com:

A local common name for "Ornithoctonus huwena" is "cow killer". From this website: >>click me<<
"...Venoms from three species of Southern Chinese tarantulas (Theraphosidae) are now. Ornithoctonus huwena is locally known as the 'Earth Tiger" or "Cow Killer" and has a venom that can be lethal to humans. The most abundant toxin in its venom appears to block neurotransmitter release. ..."


And from this site about "Ornithoctonus huwena" (= Haplopelma schmidti) >>click me<<
"...There are reports of cattle deaths as well as the death of a baby who was bitten on the buttocks while crawling in the garden. ..."
Does anybody know if the accident with the baby is confirmed in any way or only from a local newspaper or anything like this and it also coulb be a snake bite or a non-tarantula which killed the baby?

all the best,
Martin

 

[genious_gr]

So, James has made his decision and the discussion is over, but I have one final question: Now that we know that he has his own invert room, and that his younger bros and sisters dont get in there, and that his dad is keeping an eye on him and his hobby, would you guys still say he shouldn't get a Pokie?

I can't have an opinion as I haven't met him and can't know how responsible he is.....Just curious!!

 

[danread]

I would still say that he shouldn't get one, not because he is any more likely to get bitten, as he is obviously a responsible person. It's just that IF he was to get bitten (as has been pointed out can happen to anyone, even an 'expert'), the resultant effects could be much more severe, even fatal. Therefore, in my opinion, it's not worth the risk until he gets older (or eats a lot of pies )

Cheers,

Dan.

 

[vespa_bicolor]

I have never been bitten by any of those "Chinese earth tigers" or know personally anyone who was bitten (thank heaven!),but some people who keep them say their venom is really toxic and can have terrible effects..."Cow killer" is a nickname given to them by people in China,whether it is truth or superstition I don't really know,but what I know is that this is extremely dangerous (someone told me the venom is as bad or worse than Poecilotheria sp.)

Just sharing what I heard,thanks

>
And two citations from www.spiderpharm.com:

A local common name for "Ornithoctonus huwena" is "cow killer". From this website: >>click me<<
"...Venoms from three species of Southern Chinese tarantulas (Theraphosidae) are now. Ornithoctonus huwena is locally known as the 'Earth Tiger" or "Cow Killer" and has a venom that can be lethal to humans. The most abundant toxin in its venom appears to block neurotransmitter release. ..."


And from this site about "Ornithoctonus huwena" (= Haplopelma schmidti) >>click me<<
"...There are reports of cattle deaths as well as the death of a baby who was bitten on the buttocks while crawling in the garden. ..."
Does anybody know if the accident with the baby is confirmed in any way or only from a local newspaper or anything like this and it also coulb be a snake bite or a non-tarantula which killed the baby?

all the best,
Martin [/B][/QUOTE]

 

[Steve Nunn]

Interesting point, the majoriy of people against James purchasing a pokie have major experience (Martin, CM, etc et al.), some of which have more time keeping T's then the entire lifespans of some of those for James buying a pokie. I know age has nothing to do with it, but experience does. I know these people against are some of the folk who've had first time events in the entire hobby, these people know their stuff and are more then familiar with the behaviour of most species in the hobby.

What could all this mean???

Steve

 

[belewfripp]

Originally posted by vespa_bicolor



And from this site about "Ornithoctonus huwena" (= Haplopelma schmidti) >>click me<<
"...There are reports of cattle deaths as well as the death of a baby who was bitten on the buttocks while crawling in the garden. ..."
Does anybody know if the accident with the baby is confirmed in any way or only from a local newspaper or anything like this and it also coulb be a snake bite or a non-tarantula which killed the baby?

all the best,
Martin

I have heard third-hand that the baby in question was already suffering from pneumonia at the time of the bite.

Adrian

 

[invertepet]

Originally posted by Valael

Why do you think no one believed any of the extreme bite reports until fairly recently?

Actually, most of us who have been in the hobby for a long time have known that Poecs are 'hot' for some time. I think the only ones who were vocal in dismissing said toxicity were a couple of individuals in particular -- one of whom authored the most recently discussed bite report. I won't comment on that any further than to say that it's great he made a full recovery.

I've kept spiders for 25+ years and never had one bite me (can't say the same about scorps, of course)... That doesn't in any way change the fact that utmost care ought to be given in dealing with Poecs -- and I think public displays of handling same without vibrant disclaimers is irresponsible and potentially dangerous, not only to inexperienced individuals 'trying that at home' but also to the hobby in general should a bad bite get any kind of press attention.

bill

 

[Martin H.]

.


Hello Brandon,

just curious if your recent P. rufilata bite experience >>click here<< has changed your mind or are you still of the opinion you argued for at the beginning of this thread: >>click here<<

At 03-31-2003, Brandon wrote:

To all,

James (Tarantula Lover) has a post going on about what tarantula he should get. H lividum or P regalis. Ever since those bite reports have come out about Pokeys people have become more and more afraid of what is truly a great species and genus. It is my opinion that a Pokey is really no more dangerous than the family dog, and if it isn’t handled makes a great pet. To detour someone from having such pleasures because they are quote “Dangerous” is not really a good way of helping someone. I have seen James type that he doesn't hold his tarantulas often, and im assure that he wouldn’t hold his pokey, so I see no reason to detour him of it. Many "Inexperienced" people own the genus and have never been bitten. And so one person in America that we know of does get bitten everyone overreacts. This species and genus are not aggressive and out to hunt people. So lets stop acting that way. James I say get your pokey, and don't be afraid. You seem very active in the tarantula world and very responsible and I see no reason as to not get it. Thank You

Sincerely,

Brandon

At 03-31-2003, Brandon wrote:

... Im damn near 17 years of age, I can hardly get people to respond to my f:::ing posts. I have owned pokeys since as long as I have been collecting, never been bitten because I respect the power. Im sorry for becoming angry but alot of your attitudes tward something that is great to have, have just become disgusting to me.

your above statement and your recent bite experience reminds me on that what I already wrote:

At 02-06-2004, Martin H. wrote:

Several (most?) Poeciotheria bite reports are from experienced people – which got lazy with this genus.
It happend during handling or underestimateing the genus. For example I know one, who is keeping tarantulas since about 12 - 15 years and also keeping Poecilotheria ssp. since several year. He was cleaning the cage of a P. regalis and relied to his experience that it is not an aggressive species but very shy who perfers to flee. But this time during he worked in the cage, she suddenly rushed out of her retreat and bit him in his hand! => NEVER underestimate a Poecilotheria!
After hearing this story, I started to be more carefull and stopped working with my bare hands in Poecilotheria tanks (which I did in the past because I am also of the opinion that they are not aggressive but shy and skittish) and prefer a pair of long tweezers.
...

BTW, I don't want to sound mischievous here – I really wish nobody to get bitten by a Poecilotheria spp.!

all the best,
Martin

 

[Immortal_sin]

Martin,
you bring up a good point about working with tweezers in pokie tanks. I also tend to use my hands, and even though I'm not actually reaching down in there, it's probably still an accident waiting to happen. I'm investing in a good pair of long tongs

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by Immortal_sin
Martin,
you bring up a good point about working with tweezers in pokie tanks. I also tend to use my hands, and even though I'm not actually reaching down in there, it's probably still an accident waiting to happen. I'm investing in a good pair of long tongs

What is wrong with you people?

I don't even work in my Brachypelma's tanks without tongs. If nothing else, it's not worth exposing my hands to the hair, but it's certainly worth it for plenty of other reasons, e.g. if my hands are not in their tank for any reason, the chances of any bite from any spider drops tremendously.