German Tarantula Breeder, Sven Koppler, sentenced for smuggling tarantulas today

[Nerri1029]

Except about the flesh eating bacteria, which I know near to nothing about, I fail to see what part of Rick quoted statements are false, or wrong.

Do tarantulas have venom? Yes. Can that venom potentially be a danger to a human being...Yes, as well.

I dont see WHY Rick West has to come here to explain ANYTHING to ANYBODY.

OK

Flesh-eating bacteria syndrome:
Some of the bacteria that can cause necrotizing fasciitis ( Group A streptococcus (Streptococcus pyogenes), Staphylococcus aureus, Vibrio vulnificus, Clostridium perfringens, Bacteroides fragilis). Such infections are more likely to occur in people with compromised immune systems.

Clostridium perfringens is found in the soil. any T being transported on native soil COULD be harboring it. Any garden soil etc etc.

 

[Fingolfin]

Rick owes me nothing. I'm sure he's a nice guy, and I appreciate the work he's done in the past. I'll credit him with the good things he's done, is very likely that if we saw a transcript of his entire testimony we'd see that the majority of the statements he made contain good, accurate information.

As to the rest of your message - it's true that some people here are making unreasonable "demands", making unreasonable claims or have unjustified expectations. They really aren't in the position to blast someone else for inaccurate public statements when they themselves are making even more preposterous claims and statements.

There we go!

Seriously though, Sven should be the topic throughout this thread, Rick has nothing to do with it.

 

[xenesthis]

what is the single most important thing that affects American hobbyists right now

Sven's case is closed. Sven pleaded guilty and was punished. Rick's alleged comments - as reported by the media - are controversial on the surface, but until Rick comments on them, that part of the event is a side show with a multitude of opinions.

The topic of this thread is contained in the original post. As an American, when you go to buy a house in a neighborhood, you have a right to know if there are criminals on your street before you make that decision. Before you buy your kid a toy, you have a right to know if the toy maker has toxic levels of mercury in that toy. With this analogy, American hobbyists have a need and a right to know if a seller, here in the U.S., smuggled stock in the past and is still operating selling and trading today even on this site. That is the topic of this thread.

Sven's conviction was news, but it's over. Done. Rick's alleged comments are interesting/controversial, etc., but a side show to the real topic at hand. There are 100 other Kopplers mailing stuff to U.S. smugglers. Koppler's conviction did not stop that. Why? Because we have American smugglers still operating, unpunished, using the internet to find those overseas to sell and ship them undeclared (from customs and USFWS) stock to the U.S. You have to bust the Americans sending money overseas for this undeclared stock to send a strong message throughout the U.S. trade/hobby that you will be punished if you do that. Koppler's conviction did not send that message Monday. It is not just the nine Americans. The number is substantially more. Just look at the idiots that post in AB's review threads openly admitting to it. They are bragging about how they got their tarantulas or scorpions from a foreign country shipped in via "EMS".

From an American hobbyist perspective, we have a need and right to know who they are.

Anymore posts about Rick and Sven is fruitless and adding drama to a situation that needs no drama. We only need to know who the unpunished smugglers are. That is what directly affects American hobbyists in their trading and purchasing decisions right now.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Sven's case is closed. Sven pleaded guilty and was punished. Rick's alleged comments - as reported by the media - are controversial on the surface, but until Rick comments on them, that part of the event is a side show with a multitude of opinions.

The topic of this thread is contained in the original post. As an American, when you go to buy a house in a neighborhood, you have a right to know if there are criminals on your street before you make that decision. Before you buy your kid a toy, you have a right to know if the toy maker has toxic levels of mercury in that toy. With this analogy, American hobbyists have a need and a right to know if a seller, here in the U.S., smuggled stock in the past and is still operating selling and trading today even on this site. That is the topic of this thread.

Sven's conviction was news, but it's over. Done. Rick's alleged comments are interesting/controversial, etc., but a side show to the real topic at hand. There are 100 other Kopplers mailing stuff to U.S. smugglers. Koppler's conviction did not stop that. Why? Because we have American smugglers still operating, unpunished, using the internet to find those overseas to sell and ship them undeclared (from customs and USFWS) stock to the U.S. You have to bust the Americans sending money overseas for this undeclared stock to send a strong message throughout the U.S. trade/hobby that you will be punished if you do that. Koppler's conviction did not send that message Monday. It is not just the nine Americans. The number is substantially more. Just look at the idiots that post in AB's review threads openly admitting to it. They are bragging about how they got their tarantulas or scorpions from a foreign country shipped in via "EMS".

From an American hobbyist perspective, we have a need and right to know who they are.

Anymore posts about Rick and Sven is fruitless and adding drama to a situation that needs no drama. We only need to know who the unpunished smugglers are. That is what directly affects American hobbyists in their trading and purchasing decisions right now.

After this well thought out logical, damm best post of the day, nobody should be talking about Rick or Sven again!


Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates

 

[Kirk]

Sven's case is closed. Sven pleaded guilty and was punished. Rick's alleged comments - as reported by the media - are controversial on the surface, but until Rick comments on them, that part of the event is a side show with a multitude of opinions.

The topic of this thread is contained in the original post. As an American, when you go to buy a house in a neighborhood, you have a right to know if there are criminals on your street before you make that decision. Before you buy your kid a toy, you have a right to know if the toy maker has toxic levels of mercury in that toy. With this analogy, American hobbyists have a need and a right to know if a seller, here in the U.S., smuggled stock in the past and is still operating selling and trading today even on this site. That is the topic of this thread.

Sven's conviction was news, but it's over. Done. Rick's alleged comments are interesting/controversial, etc., but a side show to the real topic at hand. There are 100 other Kopplers mailing stuff to U.S. smugglers. Koppler's conviction did not stop that. Why? Because we have American smugglers still operating, unpunished, using the internet to find those overseas to sell and ship them undeclared (from customs and USFWS) stock to the U.S. You have to bust the Americans sending money overseas for this undeclared stock to send a strong message throughout the U.S. trade/hobby that you will be punished if you do that. Koppler's conviction did not send that message Monday. It is not just the nine Americans. The number is substantially more. Just look at the idiots that post in AB's review threads openly admitting to it. They are bragging about how they got their tarantulas or scorpions from a foreign country shipped in via "EMS".

From an American hobbyist perspective, we have a need and right to know who they are.

Anymore posts about Rick and Sven is fruitless and adding drama to a situation that needs no drama. We only need to know who the unpunished smugglers are. That is what directly affects American hobbyists in their trading and purchasing decisions right now.

And unless and until you have the empirical evidence to actually name names, you never should have started this thread. You began the thread by asking rhetorical questions, doing nothing more than inciting rumormongering and clear instances of libel. If you were truly sincere in determining instances of smuggling by US operators, rather than starting a witch hunt, you would have spent time actually communicating with the individuals you and others have obliquely or directly impugned, as well as sought out the trial transcripts.

 

[xenesthis]

thread

I simply reported the news and asked some questions for debate and opinions. Somebody else was going to post those news stories and debate and opinions were going to follow within minutes or hours of when the California news agencies published it. In the hobby, we use discussion forums to make opinions and debate. It was going to happen Kirk.

Sven will name the names when he is able and ready, but until then, do you suggest American hobbyists not have their guard up and question who they are buying from and what they are buying with this significant news that directly affects our trade and hobby? This case has direct affect upon our hobby and trade. We should be allowed to debate it, make opinions and until the names are mentioned by Sven, we should have our guard up and be wary of the situation. The facts from the news agencies is there are nine U.S. citizens that smuggled stock. One smuggled CITES animals. Would you like to be the one that buys a Brachypelma spp. that traded hands fives times since last March that originated in those illegal activities?

 

[Kirk]

I simply reported the news and asked some questions for debate and opinions. Somebody else was going to post those news stories and debate and opinions were going to follow within minutes or hours of my post. In the hobby, we use discussion forums to make opinions and debate. It was going to happen Kirk.

You asked questions for debate and opinions? How could this lead to nothing more than some here making inappropriate and direct references to sellers? As we've seen nothing more than rumormongering has been accomplished. Starting a thread regarding what has been provided by the media is one thing. Asking questions to bait a witch hunt is another. Don't try to stand behind the pathetic excuse that 'if I didn't say it someone else would.' That's unprofessional.

Sven will name the names when he is able and ready, but until then, do you suggest American hobbyist not have their guard up and question who they are buying from and what they are buying with this significant news that directly affects our trade and hobby?

On what evidence provided in this thread does one determine what dealers to trust? Once again, you ask a rhetorical question.

 

[xenesthis]

thread

Kirk, rumors are human nature. You can't stop it. Of course, people shouldn't do it, but look at our movies and TV. You think nobody on AB was going to report those California news stories?? OMG. People pick that stuff up and report it on AB every week and it happens with opinions, debate and yes, rumors. The difference is this situation is we have actual reports of the case facts. It is not a rumor there exists nine Americans that smuggled and one smuggled CITES stock. That is not a rumor. It's a fact.

Again, would you like to be the one that buys a Brachypelma spp. that traded hands fives times since last March that originated in those illegal activities?

Sven will either name them or if he doesn't, people should be informed and aware of the situation and the out-of-control "brown-boxing" that's been going on and have their guard up. It's put a big black eye on our hobby. It stinks. Nobody should be covering for these people that have been doing it. Nobody should be looking the other way. It's polluting our hobby. Some of us "old timers" have seen the efforts and energy expended over the last three decades to build this hobby and are not happy with the few that are messing up things for the rest of us.

 

[Kirk]

Kirk, rumors are human nature. You can't stop it. Of course, people shouldn't do it, but look at our movies and TV. You think nobody on AB was going to report those California news stories?? OMG. People pick them stuff up and report it on AB every week and it happens with opinions, debate and yes, rumors. The difference is this situation is we have actual reports of the case facts. It is not a rumor there exists nine Americans that smuggled and one smuggled CITES stock. That is not a rumor. It's a fact.

As I've already said, reporting news is one thing. Adding in rhetorical questions to promulgate rumormongering is another. You stated some published facts, then crafted questions to incite unwarranted discussion and finger pointing.

Again, would you like to be the one that buys a Brachypelma spp. that traded hands fives times since last March that originated in those illegal activities?

Yet another nonsensical question. If I have empirical knowledge of illegal activities then I would not do business with a seller. Absent such knowledge, what is one to do? Come here and form unsubstantiated opinions? Frankly, by your statements, I have reason not to trust your judgment.

 

[xenesthis]

for the American hobbyist

Kirk, I totally understand where you are coming from, but this Sven case has some facts. Not rumors.

Please tell us, how we should operate post this case? Should we continue to be blind and deaf and purchase as though this case didn't happen? Should we have our guard up and question certain sellers and their stock?

I suspect over 75% of American hobbyists out there do not know anything about EMS shipping, "brown-boxing", CITES, legality of certain animals, country fauna laws, etc. The news about this case and facts of this case need discussing and hobbyists out there need to be educated about what all this means to them. Their collection. Their wallet. Their selection in a U.S. seller.

American hobbyists have a need and right to know about this situation. It affects us all. I believe we need to self-regulate our hobby best we can as if we don't, Big Brother will surely step in to do it for us. As of May 15, 2010, I offer my opinion. We have failed. Expect our hobby to be more restricted, overly regulated and get more expensive due to this problem. This Ron Paul idea of how our hobby/trade should operate has failed. Big Brother is here and alive and well. The bird trade did not regulate themselves well and in the '70s, Big Brother stepped in to do it. Primates in the '80s. Reptiles in the '90s. 2011, Big Brother is here because we failed. People who knew things were going on illegally chose to pretend they didn't hear or see it. Some choose to benefit/profit from it. Some even joined in by helping unpack the "brown box" from Europe, Thailand or Brazil via "EMS" that a U.S. buyer purchased and then, down the road, put them up for trade or sale on the classifieds knowing full well that stock was illegally obtained. They bragged about it on forums, in chats, in emails, on the phone and some idiots even posted on review boards their illegal activities. The don't ask, don't tell policy was used for some. It has hurt us all.

 

[Fran]

I cant believe some people still dont get it, after its been said dozens of times.

You cant point fingers or name names based on speculation. Period. We are talking about a very serious matter.

If you have proof, then report it. If not the only thing you are doing is spreading rumors.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion, one thing is that and another is to spread accusations without proof.

 

[Kirk]

Kirk, I totally understand where you are coming from, but this Sven case has some facts. Not rumors.

I'm aware of the posts that have been purged by the mods as well as those that remain. I'm distressed that the amount of unfounded rumor exceeds what little factual material has been published.

Please tell us, how we should operate post this case? Should we continue to be blind and deaf and purchase as those this case didn't happen? Should we have our guard up and question certain sellers and stock?

There is nothing wrong with asking questions of sellers. I've never stated anything to indicate that one isn't precluded from asking how a particular seller obtains their stock.

I suspect over 75% of American hobbyists out there do not know anything about EMS shipping, "brown-boxing", CITES, legality of certain animals, country fauna laws, etc. The news about this case, the facts of this case need discussing and hobbyists out there need to be educated about what all this means to them. Their collection. Their wallet. Their selection in a U.S. seller.

American hobbyists have a need and right about this situation. It affects us all.

Do you question the legality of every object you purchase? No one can be expected to know all international regulations. This is why we have statutes and law enforcement. Once again, I agree that being informed about the status of sellers is worthwhile to the extent one wishes to pursue such matters, but subsequent posted opinions should be determined by clear evidence, not hearsay.

 

[thebugwife]

Hey Sven Above^!

Please Clear something up for me.

Are You Sven Köppler?

Thanks

 

[campj]

From an American hobbyist perspective, we have a need and right to know who they are.

Maybe this should be edited to say, "From a big time American invertebrate dealer's perspective, I want potential customers to know who they are."

 

[xenesthis]

all

campj, we are all affected. Of course myself and every other seller is, but it trickles down to breeders, investors and the general hobbyist as well.

When a U.S. smuggler gets animals via EMS from a foreign country, that person has not paid for air cargo costs (very expensive), USFWS inspection fees (that went up dramatically last year), air cargo handling fees, exporter's fees, health certificates, CITES permit fees, etc. So, when they put their smuggler stock up on a classified board, they are able to sell stock, smuggled stock, at prices that nobody can match. For breeders/investors/hobbyists that paid a nice penny for a legally obtained animal from an importer that paid the necessary and legal overhead, they then have to watch their investment's value killed.

Now maybe that breeder/investor/hobbyist just wanted to get back the value of their investment. Maybe they wanted to captive produce stock to pay for their crickets and supplies for their hobby. Maybe that hobbyist has to sell the animal to move, join the army, go to college, etc. They would like to get fair market value for their legally obtained stock. With the smuggled stock all over the market and being sold for cheap to entice buyers to shop on price alone, it hurts us all.

Over the last few years, I've heard many breeders/investors/hobbyists complaining about seeing certain species drop in value 50% or more being sold by a few sellers. They get very angry and depressed seeing this. They wonder how is that possible???? How are they able to do that? They also keep mentioning one name in particular over and over that has been doing this.

A great example to make the point. A particular species is captive-produced in Europe and sold by two breeders ONLY. Three U.S. importers with import permits legally import them with customs and USFWS clearance. Figuring in import overhead and necessary bus. profit, they have to sell the species for $100. The three U.S. importers sell the animal for around $100 for the first one month. One month later, a person in the U.S., without an import permit obtains the same stock illegally via EMS "brown-box" from a seller who bought from the two Europeans and/or possibly the same two breeders there. That U.S. smuggler now puts the same species up on the classifieds for $45. Unsuspected and uninformed American hobbyists who are pinching pennies and are a limited budget shopping on price only say "damn, that seller is awesome! That's a cheap price!" and they buy it. Now, that U.S. smuggler has profited off their illegal method of making this stock available. He now uses the money to buy more illegal stock, feeling cocky and buys more the 2nd month, gets a better deal and now in the third month lists the species for $25. Now, how about Joe Smith in Arkansas that bought his legal stock from a legal importer for $100 and he bought 10 as an investment wanting to breed the species three years from now and get a return on his investment. How can he now as the U.S. smuggler has killed the value on the species? What if the smuggler, who is making out like a bandit, puts a huge demand on his suppliers so much that the captive-born stock supply dries up quickly and the smugglers need to find collector's to get wild-caught stock from a country that is closed to collecting and exporting to feed the demand. When and if the U.S. smuggler is busted, now the gov. wants to make the species restricted, CITES, or completed prohibited from being obtained. Joe Smith in Arkansas just got screwed over big time and he did nothing wrong. Again, everybody is affected by brown-boxing smugglers.

It's simple. It is necessary for some gov. regulation and permits. I hope we can all agree on that. We just need to all know what the rules are and play by the rules.....BUT, in the bad seed of human nature, there are those you don't do that. To get ahead of the competition, to save a buck, they choose to screw the rules so they can get what they want for cheap. It's not fair to all of us for those that do this. It hurts ALL of us.

 

[campj]

In the long run, even if that person is exposed, they will still sell plenty of spiders until they are caught and feel the sting of justice. I really don't see a reputation for being a smuggler hurting their sales significantly because in the bad seed of human nature, all sorts of evil comes from the love of money. Plenty of customers love their money and will go with the cheapest bidder, even if their conscience is mildly hurt in the process.

Who knows, there may be an open investigation on the Americans who bought the animals from Sven.

 

[zonbonzovi]

xenesthis, those are economic & competition-related concerns. I would hope that the hobby at large can think of this matter in a much broader scope. If we continue to simply think of these living creatures as mere commodities, we probably deserve the outcome.

 

[xenesthis]

the unpunished and ethics

>Who knows, there may be an open investigation on the Americans who bought the animals from Sven.

No. They were given amnesty so Sven could be taken out of the supply chain. He is just one spoke in a much, much bigger wheel. The American demand is still there. Unchecked, unrestrained and unpunished. Because of that, the problem will continue and grow.

> I would hope that the hobby at large can think of this matter in a much >broader scope. If we continue to simply think of these living creatures as >mere commodities, we probably deserve the outcome.

I agree with you, but if we get into those ethics, this thread will take a big side step into that topic. This thread was a commerce topic mostly.

 

[Steve Nunn]

Expert witnesses are often paid "lawyer money" for testimony. It's quite conceivable that from the moment he stepped on a plane, assuming he came to the US for the trail, to the moment he stepped off he was billing the USFWS.

For the last time, Rick was not paid!! Do you get it yet, I've said this about 4 times now too. Are you guys reading this?? Does any of this get through?? HE DID NOT GET PAID!!! You spend all your time trying to critique Rick, based on three media cut and pastes, you ignore the facts, you ignore anything Sven did to bring bad media upon the hobby. What is the point of continuing with this conversation???

The irony is Sven can post something, and gets by without question, what a joke this is. You people who are so critical of Rick, you have no clue what you are edven talking about, if you understood the nature of the case, you'd be more pissed at Sven than anybody. Sven knew he should have done the CITES paperwork, he chose not to because it was easy, and he did it multiple times. He got busted, he should pay for his actions. It is not Rick's or anoyone else other than the courts who decide upon the sentencing.

And all you can grasp is a redundant discussion about "what Rick said", you wouldn't have a CLUE what Rick said, all you know are three small quotes that have already been established as taken out of context.

 

[Bill S]

Oh, and ever tired to sue a newspaper?? Good luck. Sure they can cut direct quotes, but that hardly means they are taken in context by media.

As a matter of fact, I did have an experience with the media in which they (a newspsper and a TV station) misidentified me as a criminal. And from that experience I can guarantee you that media outlets do worry about the repurcussions of misquoting or misrepresenting people. My case was settled without a lawsuit, but if the media people weren't so quick to react (one reporter broke down in tears and apologies when she found out her mistake) and ask what I wanted "to put it right", it could have gone to lawsuit.

It's easy to blame the media for many things today, but they are still subject to the same libel laws as the rest of us. And there are plenty of cases out there that prove this. I suspect that most never reach the courtroom because media does not want to be their own bad publicity.