German Tarantula Breeder, Sven Koppler, sentenced for smuggling tarantulas today

[Arachnopets]

Admin Note

No, I am not doubting who Sven is. He has been a member here for years. Please don't mince my words. This is what happens when you speculate and assume based off of opinion rather than fact.

I didn't realize that Sven came forward. So my question is to the moderators what is the difference between naming names on the review board and on this thread?



Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates

---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 PM ----------

Sven already name the name of who it is. Isn't that proof enough unless you are questioning that the Sven that just posted tonight is not the real Sven?


Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates

The rules for the review section are crystal clear as to what is permitted. If you need further help defining them, contact one of us privately and we will do our best to help explain them better. However, the review section has absolutely nothing to do with this specific thread and topic.

Are you referring to this part of Sven's post:

<snip>

Also paulatpetshop should easily be able to explain, that he was always importing legal and there never were seized parcels from Thailand...
keyword: routine search

If so, then I fail to see how that is naming Paul as anything other than someone with more first hand information in the case.

Once again, ONLY THE PEOPLE INVOLVED CAN NAME NAMES. Why is that so difficult to comprehend? Would you want the wrong information given to you just because someone "thought" or "suspected" but never had actual proof. So now you just blacklisted the wrong people, as such. Wrongfully accused. This is why I am insisting that only those involved can provide you with the information you seek. It really shouldn't be any other way.

Ask yourself this, why is no one with the proof coming forward? I mean, if it is truly that simple to spit out nine names, then why haven't any been mentioned so far?

As for your "rights being violated" because I deemed the removal of some posts necessary, here is a reminder of Freedom of Speech and Arachnoboards.

Debby

 

[PhobeToPhile]

Sven did not follow international CITES laws, put in place for the very reasons you state (to avoid wild caught exploitation). Maybe Sven is a good guy who just couldn't be bothered to do the paperwork (but Sven cannot be accused of not knowing CITES laws), but in that case, he can think of it as a lesson well taught.

So, the question really is, are CITES laws too strong or too weak??? The USFWS are forced to follow CITES laws, as are all countries. It is up to each country to enforce those laws, and I don't see why the USFWS should be critiqued for following international laws in place for the protection of endangered animals.

Following what I understand, one of the issues is that CITES certification is not an easy process, despite its intent to allow captive breeding populations (I'm basing this off of pg 335 of the TTKG, 2009). As a result, CITES may, in the case of captive breeding, hinder more than it helps. Definitive proof of captive breeding is required (shouldn't be too hard), scheduling visits for official inspectors (okay, now here is where I think they might need to ease up-if there is proof they were cpative bred, why the visits), and the need to pay for said inspections and permits (to be expected). In this case, i suspect that the second part could be alleviated-and the process made far easier to the average breeder-so long as sufficient proof of the first condition is met. I don't think it's a matter of the strength of CITES-I think it's a matter of making it easier to navigate. Of course, once this is done it then becomes incumbent upon the breeders to prove their product is CB. THAT BEING SAID, the law still HAS to be followed.

Edit: To those complaining about post removal...this IS a forum, not a country. Moderators are within their rights to remove posts. There's a reason we have to agree to the ToS before we are allowed to make our accounts.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

Cites

Following what I understand, one of the issues is that CITES certification is not an easy process, despite its intent to allow captive breeding populations (I'm basing this off of pg 335 of the TTKG, 2009). As a result, CITES may, in the case of captive breeding, hinder more than it helps. Definitive proof of captive breeding is required (shouldn't be too hard), scheduling visits for official inspectors (okay, now here is where I think they might need to ease up-if there is proof they were cpative bred, why the visits), and the need to pay for said inspections and permits (to be expected). In this case, i suspect that the second part could be alleviated-and the process made far easier to the average breeder-so long as sufficient proof of the first condition is met. I don't think it's a matter of the strength of CITES-I think it's a matter of making it easier to navigate. Of course, once this is done it then becomes incumbent upon the breeders to prove their product is CB. THAT BEING SAID, the law still HAS to be followed.

Edit: To those complaining about post removal...this IS a forum, not a country. Moderators are within their rights to remove posts. There's a reason we have to agree to the ToS before we are allowed to make our accounts.

Getting the permits is not super difficult it is just time consuming and cost a little money for the permits. Then after you have the permits import or export is just like doing an import. I don't think people were avoiding that I think they were avoiding the fees that come along with going through customs properly for any import CITES or not. This time there were just CITES in the package which made everything worst. Also Sven was not trying to avoid those fees the person importing them was....

 

[Steve Nunn]

Following what I understand, one of the issues is that CITES certification is not an easy process, despite its intent to allow captive breeding populations (I'm basing this off of pg 335 of the TTKG, 2009). As a result, CITES may, in the case of captive breeding, hinder more than it helps.

Hi,
I understand your point, but the issue is far more complex. Only last year, one of the biggest names within the hobby got busted smuggling wild caught Brachypelma adults out of Mexico (and being such a large name, he was protected from the public). So, while the CITES regulations may be difficult for some, they are an absolute requirement at the basic level, hindering illegal collecting. Any other side effects are just tough luck for us as hobbyists, and we as hobbyists have brought that problem down upon ourselves.

I know a lot of folk argue that some collection should be in place, and that more are killed by locals than could ever be collected by enthusiasts, but that issue is far more complex too. Where a local farmer will kill any animal he spots (and tarantulas are nocturnal!), collectors will deliberately go for the largest females in the colonies they find. I can speak with experience and references if needed, that it's the largest females in mygale populations, that acutally sustain said populations. So in fact, wild collection by enthusiasts does major damage to smaller populations. And many of these species are found in very small spread out populations. And if you consider a collector travels to another country for a week, he/she is going to go for the largest material they can find, and they'll not take the time to check population sizes, or collect small %'s in numerous populations (they simply don't have the time to do that), they'll direct in on a location and go crazy collecting as many as they can in the brief time there. One could try to fluff it up and say that doesn't happen, but anyone who's been on a commercial collection trip will admit this is always the case. I am full well aware that this contradicts many articles written in the society journals, but those articles have bugged the hell out of me in this regard, to me it is uninformed and biased information!

Sure CITES may make it a little difficult, but that's the price we should pay for protected animals, isn't it (considering they are placed in CITES with good reason)????

Just some food for thought, and no fluff on wild collecting

Steve

 

[super-pede]

what the man(sven) di was totally unjustified. AND when I see a certain idol to our hobby say things that will most definitley hurt our hobby through publicity just pisses me off.

another point to make is that rick says that digging the tarantulas out of their burrows hurts their native populations.How is that different than taking them out of the trees? collecting is collecting. and if I remember right rick took place in digging up T's numerous times.

I think a certain two people are needed here to defend and justify their actions and statements.*cough*rickandsven*cough*

 

[Steve Nunn]

another point to make is that rick says that digging the tarantulas out of their burrows hurts their native populations.How is that different than taking them out of the trees? collecting is collecting.

Umm, it's not???? LOL, I would think Rick would also mean out of trees too Let's not get too picky here hey

And about hurting native populations, see my above comments.

Thanks,
Steve

edit: as a side note, it is worth noting that some arboreal mygales will nest very high up (and just might be afforded protection from wild collectors), while others lower down (obviously, less protection).

---------- Post added at 02:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:24 AM ----------

AND when I see a certain idol to our hobby say things that will most definitley hurt our hobby through publicity just pisses me off.

Maybe you should be pointing your fingers to the media, who look to anything with shock value to hype up their story. I don't recall Rick stating any of this information in public, and he certainly cannot influence their publications!! And unless they were to publish Rick's deposition in full, how can you state they are in or out of context??? I'd like to say don't believe everything you read, but you might then doubt this comment

Steve

 

[xenesthis]

thread spreading into side threads - back to the bigger issue

The media's report of Rick's testimony and Sven's being guilty is not really the big issue here. Sven pleaded guilty. That's a non-issue. For American tarantula hobbyists, the issue is the nine U.S. citizens that engaged in smuggling Koppler's stock. One violated CITES law with getting 22 B. smithi in the mail as reported in the news stories. None of those nine were busted especially the CITES smuggler.

American hobbyists have a right to know who they are and then be able to decide to buy or not buy from people that smuggled stock into the U.S. without declaring their stock with customs and USFWS. My understanding is all nine are still operating, selling and trading stock and a few on arachnoboards right now. That is the big issue here.

Sven pleaded guilty. Done deal. Non-issue. Rick's comments (as reported by the media) are controversial and might have an impact on things, but both of these things are not the big issue. As an American hobbyist, I'd want to know who is selling smuggled stock. It's a legitimate question and need for hobbyists to know that. This is not speculation. It's now facts as reported by the media. Nine U.S. citizens did business with Koppler. None of the nine have been busted. One violated CITES law. American hobbyists need to know who those nine are. That is the big issue here.

 

[Steve Nunn]

Rick's comments (as reported by the media) are controversial and might have an impact on things

To clear the air on this (I know this is not your main point), the comments by Rick used in the media were indeed taken out of context, and is just a result of media hype. If you were to read Rick's full deposition, you would then understand he used only previously published work and references, and had to respond to certain questions posed to him (as is done in ANY expert deposition). I can tell you, he will not be happy with how the media has portrayed his comments on tarantulas. And as one of his closest friends, I can speak with some clarity on the topic.

So, please stop using the media comments to protray Rick's thoughts on tarantulas, for they are warped by media hype, which is so typical. Those of you who actually know Rick, will know exactly what I mean.

@ Sven, please understand, I do not know you at all, so I cannot (and will not) comment on what your character is like, but I am sure many others here can

Steve

 

[Anastasia]

Maybe you should be pointing your fingers to the media, who look to anything with shock value to hype up their story. I don't recall Rick stating any of this information in public, and he certainly cannot influence their publications!! And unless they were to publish Rick's deposition in full, how can you state they are in or out of context??? I'd like to say don't believe everything you read, but you might then doubt this comment

Steve

Steve,
But what is the purpose for the media to twist excepts worlds?
also it stated as quotes
And who would know about such is tarantulas to even make things up
where is Rick West, I hope he find time to come in this tread to say hi

 

[zonbonzovi]

and no fluff on wild collecting

Hmmm...shall we discuss it here or in a new thread? Specifically, how much "legal" commercial collection is happening, here and abroad; who's responsible for it; the *ahem*, necessity, of bringing in species that are already here in great numbers; the disappearance of entire, site specific colonies(Aphonopelma anyone?), etc. Certainly a topic moving in parallel to this one, no?

 

[Mojo Jojo]

Let me simplify even more. If you are asked a question under oath of law that you know the answer to be true and you answer with anything other than it is true, regardless of the implications, you just committed purgery and can go to prison. You have also tarnished your respect as an expert.

I think its rather selfish to ask someone to purger themselves because of the negative attention that might come with the testimony.

 

[Mojo Jojo]

Steve,
But what is the purpose for the media to twist excepts worlds?

Ratings.

A smuggler is going to prison. Details at 10.

vs

Is flesh eating bacteria hiding out in the mouth of your pet? Detals at 10.

Which story would get you to turn the news on at 10?

 

[Steve Nunn]

Let me simplify even more. If you are asked a question under oath of law that you know the answer to be true and you answer with anything other than it is true, regardless of the implications, you just committed purgery and can go to prison. You have also tarnished your respect as an expert.

I think its rather selfish to ask someone to purger themselves because of the negative attention that might come with the testimony.

Very well said, I could not have put it better.

Steve

 

[Sven]

To clear the air on this (I know this is not your main point), the comments by Rick used in the media were indeed taken out of context, and is just a result of media hype. If you were to read Rick's full deposition, you would then understand he used only previously published work and references, and had to respond to certain questions posed to him (as is done in ANY expert deposition). I can tell you, he will not be happy with how the media has portrayed his comments on tarantulas. And as one of his closest friends, I can speak with some clarity on the topic.

So, please stop using the media comments to protray Rick's thoughts on tarantulas, for they are warped by media hype, which is so typical. Those of you who actually know Rick, will know exactly what I mean.
Steve

So your friend Rick is denying that? These are direct quotes on his report, no media hype at all depending this. Sorry Steve, unortunately you are wrong. I know that this is hard to believe. Also please understand we are talking about spiderlings and not wild caughts...Thanks!

 

[Anastasia]

Ratings.

A smuggler is going to prison. Details at 10.

vs

Is flesh eating bacteria hiding out in the mouth of your pet? Detals at 10.

Which story would get you to turn the news on at 10?

oh dear that is a tough call, can I DVR them both??
But seriously I would think if it is bull I need to know about it
otherwise antibacterial mouth wash for all my spiders in order

 

[Steve Nunn]

Hello Sven,
You missunderstand me. I am saying that Rick's quotes were taken out of context. This I know for a fact. You also know that Rick was given a series of questions by the prosecution, to which he had to answer in his deposition. Everything he stated was fact, supported by referenced material. It was not "hype" in the form of a deposition to prosecute you, as you seem to believe. Your lawyers would also have known this, which is why I suspect your lawyers did not cross Rick's deposition (and you must surely be aware of this too). So, no, I am not wrong, I am stating that the media took a portion of Rick's answers to the prosecutors questions (which, as you full well know, were then read out in part only by the judge), and used them for media hype. I am not saying he did not use those words, only that the context to his replies to the prosecutors were taken out of context (not at all unusual for the media). If you debate Rick's points of view, supported by full references, than why did your team not cross the deposition????

I personally do not understand why Rick is the point of argument here. All the points he made were facts supported by references. People in the hobby may not like some of those facts, but so what???? The media used them out of context, so what?? They are still valid points, taken out of context or not. What does the hobby ethic have to do with fact???

Additionally, I am not talking about you when I discuss smuggling and wild caught adult spiders, I am only generally talking about smuggling. I tried to make clear I was not talking about you, but will make clear again, I am NOT talking about you in reference to wild collection!! I don't understand where spiderlings vs wild caughts fits into this. All I know is that you were caught shipping CITES protected material, without using CITES permits, on mulitple occassions. I do not accuse you of anything.

Steve

 

[webbedone]

Probably nothing at German side where sending/ importing/ exporting inverts in the mail is legal.

But it would be a smuggling offence for the US exporter who is breaking US American law. Once a parcel left the US it's the recievers and buyers responsibility, how else should it be? All what could happen is that German customs open the parcel and 19% VAT has to be paid. What do you think how all the wild caught Aphonopelma species come to Europe?

Entrapment by the way is unlawfull and illegal in Europe. Even if it would be about a crime, it can't be done.

My point exactly

 

[Steve Nunn]

Hi Sven,
Honestly, all I would like to know, is, if you disagree with Rick so strongly, why didn't your legal team question Rick's deposition???? Because if you really feel you were right and he was wrong, how come you never questioned it (considering your team had access to the complete deposition)??

That's all I would be interested to know, then we might gain insight as to your opinion (instead of basing it on three cut and paste media quotes and a subjective forum argument, with no real support for your innocence). You have an entire court case to reference, surely you can answer this question if you feel so strongly about Rick's comments being wrong/incorrect.

As you know, all we get to see are some short newsclippings, that hold about as much relevance to your case, as does my own personal opinion (and others) here. Unless you can provide something implicit about your remarks, than all we can follow are the media reports (and that's no real reference at all!). I cannot count the number of times the media have been known to hype up the dangers of spiders in general, purely because the media cater to the general public and not to speciality enthusiasts. So why is this any different?

Rick was bound by law to answer those questions truthfully, as was stated earlier, the courts are not a place to promote the hobby, Rick cannot only say good things, he must stick to the truth, to which he answered. Why that interprets in any way as to Rick's personal opinion on anything, is ridiculous to say the least. And that's why I find the comments regarding Rick's statement in the media relating to a court deposition, insulting to Rick to say the least. To be honest, I believe he'll rise above this and not reply to any of the questions posted here, there is simply no need, his remarks were responses as stated above, objective comments bound by the truth, with supporting documents as references, in response to questions asked by the prosecution. If he did anything but, he'd be guilty of purgery, so to those who commented on Rick's "opinion's" in the media, just think about that for a minute, and then ask yourselves, are those comments really just his opinion for the media, or rather a deposition in court, in response to a series of questions by prosecution?? And then try to understand why the comments by Rick in the media, are taken out of context, cut from larger responses, without references, and without the questions posed: therefore, not much more than cut and paste hype.

Steve

 

[MrDeranged]

Administrator Note

I'm not the judge, I'm a concerned American citizen who needs to know who are the nine US citizen are. I don"t ever want to buy from this people if they are still operating which I'm sure they are.

Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates

---------- Post added at 07:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------

I'm happy about that. But I'm not happy about the nine US citizen that are still running loose, plus my original post was taking off. That sucks..... My rights just got violated.

Jose Berrios
Exoskeleton Invertebrates

American hobbyists need to know who those nine are. That is the big issue here.

I present to you the following sites:

http://www.justice.gov/oip/

http://www.foia.gov/

Feel free to contact someone at either site and see what they tell you. If it's not from them, from Sven or from a dealer who comes forward and admits to being one of the "CITES 9" then I don't want to hear it or see it in this thread or any other thread on the forums. Capice?

Hmmm...shall we discuss it here or in a new thread?

I'm going to go with New Thread for this one.....

These are direct quotes on his report, no media hype at all depending this.

There are many ways for someone to take something out of context while still keeping it as a quote.

I can say "Lets eat, grandma." but it could technically be quoted as "lets eat grandma." because you can't hear a comma. One quote would be me sitting down to a nice dinner with my Bubbe and the other could be me sitting down to a nice dinner of my Bubbe... ;P

If I said "Drugs are good. They have helped eradicate many deadly diseases." It could be shortened to me saying "Drugs are good." It's still a valid quote but totally out of context.

The US media is famous for taking things out of context. Unless I was able to read the entire transcript of Rick's deposition myself and see the full extent of what he said, I will err on the side of being acquainted with Rick and knowing that he would not willing disseminate misinformation about tarantulas.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Steve Nunn]

Hi Scott,
It's been many years Thanks for clarifying how quotes can be taken out of context, you say it much clearer! That's exactly what I meant, I know for a fact Rick fights to keep negative press out of the media, but it's almost impossible to control. I know he's not happy with how his quotes were used in the media, not at all.

Steve