German Tarantula Breeder, Sven Koppler, sentenced for smuggling tarantulas today

[Steve Nunn]

I'd like to see these studies. Thank you.

I can organise that I'm sure, if you're willing to respond to me in email Todd. Last time I wrote you, I didn't get a reply But yes, there are published papers on the subject of bacteria found on the fangs of tarantulas. There is no general papers on the dangers of tarantulas, all the hobbies focus on are how harmelss they are (wisely no doubt). There are however published studies, some of which noted systemic symptoms from tarantula bites (Isbister et al 2003. Bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in humans and canines), as well as discussions on hobby forums regarding the symptoms in Poecilotheria bites in partciular, as well as a good BTS article on a bite from a Selenocosmia species. There are numerous reports of severe symptoms from tarantula bites. Poecilotheria in particular are reknowned in the hobby for the severity of symptoms. I would strongly doubt anyone with good knowledge of the genus would dispute this (the disucssions can be found online about these bites).

More importantly, many close relatives of poecilotheria do not have bite reports, so bites from many species are largely unknown. The same to be said of African species, the amount of bite reports are small.

I'll take the time Todd, if you'll bother to reply to me.

Steve

 

[xenesthis]

thanks

Steve, Thanks for the info. I'm not big on the pms, but direct email will work. Sure, send me some links to read though.

Yes, we all know Poecilotheria spp. are more toxic than other genera, but I still read they are considered with many tarantulas to be medically insignificant. I have not read of a single death attributed directly to a tarantula bite yet.

Interesting, over 400 people are killed by dogs every year. So, huh, dogs are dangerous right? So why are airlines shipping dogs then?

Also, flesh-eating bacteria being on tarantula's fans is interesting, but I was told that same bacteria is also on my the bottom of my shoe. So, I'm guessing the prosecution s t r e t c h t e d this two things to make them look worse than they actually are.

 

[Bill S]

My guess (only a guess) is that the newspaper asked you if they could print an apology in the paper, which is usually done in small print and never as large as the original article). I may be wrong, but I've experienced similar issues with newspapers, and everytime, that is exactly how they got around being sued.

Nope. But for little things like a misspelled name that would be a standard procedure. There's no libel issue for misspelled names, hence no threat of lawsuit. Same with minor inaccuracies, as long as those inaccuracies cause no damage. But if those inaccuracies can be shown to have caused damage or suffering, the game changes.

 

[spiderpets]

is well is mine, also in same note wore all tarantulas that came from Sven was Captive stock?

I never did got a bite from a first moult spiderling...Perhaps only endangered species include that bacterium?

 

[webbedone]

Its almost 2012 i think its time to realize that the world is full of crooks and liars. Just sucks that sven has to take the full of it, as 9 other people, that are just as involved, get to sit back on the couch and flip through the tv channels. Altho it does make for a colorful title "evil german breeder smuggles animals that carry flesh eating virus into U.S."

I do agree that every one has to pay for crimes they commit, regardless of being aware of the importation laws or not in this case justice may have been served but definatly not proportionatly. Perhaps before lynching sven the authorities need to take a closer look at NINE other people...

 

[Anastasia]

I never did got a biet from a first moult spiderling...Perhaps only endangered species include that bacterium?

the flash eating bacterium? my understanding its a CITES spider thing

 

[Kirk]

Its almost 2012 i think its time to realize that the world is full of crooks and liars. Just sucks that sven has to take the full of it, as 9 other people, that are just as involved, get to sit back on the couch and flip through the tv channels. Altho it does make for a colorful title "evil german breeder smuggles animals that carry flesh eating virus into U.S."

I do agree that every one has to pay for crimes they commit, regardless of being aware of the importation laws or not in this case justice may have been served but definatly not proportionatly. Perhaps before lynching sven the authorities need to take a closer look at NINE other people...

I can only feel relief at the fact that you're not an attorney, given your lack of understanding of the legal system.

 

[Ecstasy]

Its almost 2012 i think its time to realize that the world is full of crooks and liars. Just sucks that sven has to take the full of it, as 9 other people, that are just as involved, get to sit back on the couch and flip through the tv channels. Altho it does make for a colorful title "evil german breeder smuggles animals that carry flesh eating virus into U.S."

I do agree that every one has to pay for crimes they commit, regardless of being aware of the importation laws or not in this case justice may have been served but definatly not proportionatly. Perhaps before lynching sven the authorities need to take a closer look at NINE other people...

While law states that accessory to the fact and attempted of the crime carries the same level of severity as the actual commitment of the crime, however punishments differ significantly.

 

[webbedone]

Ya i am pretty glad i am not a blood sucking parasite lawyer too!!!

 

[Bill S]

You're right, the fact is, the prosecution paid for the air ticket, and that was it. Again, Rick was not paid to be there, he lost pay due to time off work!! That's the irony, how people can twist words to suit their selfish needs. For Sven to call it a holiday is hilarious. All Rick did was answer the prosectutions questions in a deposition (redundant). Rick would have been asked about potential dangers of tarantulas in general, he would need to have provided references for each case he discussed. All the above are facts.

Well, an obvious question is how did Rick West end up being the expert witness? It's not like the prosecution can subpoena him as a witness. He had to have come forward of his own volition. So why? Did he feel that Sven had to be brought down and gave up his own valuable time to help do that? Was he talked into turning witness "for the good of humanity"? For public recognition? You've repeatedly assured us it wasn't for money. He presumably had some motive for offering testimony. Care to tell us what it was?

And before someone jumps in and starts demanding an answer to that - I'll repeat an earlier statement. Rick West owes me nothing - including an explanation. (Nor does he owe the rest of the board an explanation.) But for better or worse his name has been put up in public discussion as a result of a public stand he has taken. Anything he cares to explain here will help shape the opinion people have of him henceforth.

 

[Kirk]

Ya i am pretty glad i am not a blood sucking parasite lawyer too!!!

Just wait until the day you need an attorney.

 

[xenesthis]

Perhaps before lynching sven the authorities need to take a closer look at NINE other people...

My understanding is they did, but it's a money game and it was decided the bigger money game was with Koppler. I've read about these cases over the years and they have a pattern to them. Get the small fish, squeeze and net the big fish to cut off the supply. I understand the strategy, but the internet has changed old school tactics like that. First, the small fish can tell big lies to save their hides to focus on the supposed bigger fish.

I think Koppler's conviction did not change the brown-boxing problem at all in the U.S. It makes interesting news, looks good on paper and it might discourage some European brown-boxing sellers, but it did nothing to send a big fat message here in the U.S. Absolutely NOTHING. I'm very disappointed. We have one "small fish" that lied to save their hide big time and got away to swim another day. Funny thing from what I know the last ten years, he is not a "small fish". He was the biggest fish of all. While others paid the necessary and legal import costs to make species available to hobbyists, this person in particular (amongst others) cheated by brown-boxing over and over and over. It got so out of hand, that everybody has been talking about it the last two years especially. Big Brother listened to the noise and came in to take a peak. Big Brother is here to stay. Our hobby will be more restricted, more expensive and the anti pet trade organizations just got some ammo for their agenda from this case.

I say, it's time we regulate ourselves and go fishing.

 

[webbedone]

While law states that accessory to the fact and attempted of the crime carries the same level of severity as the actual commitment of the crime, however punishments differ significantly.

Thats right accomplice to murder isnt as bad as murder... I dont believe that the judicial system is in question here

---------- Post added at 12:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 AM ----------

My understanding is they did, but it's a money game and it was decided the bigger money game was with Koppler. I've read about these cases over the years and they have a pattern to them. Get the small fish, squeeze and net the big fish to cut off the supply. I understand the strategy, but the internet has changed old school tactics like that. First, the small fish can tell big lies to save their hides to focus on the supposed bigger fish.

I think Koppler's conviction did not change the brown-boxing problem at all in the U.S. It makes interesting news, looks good on paper and it might discourage some European brown-boxing sellers, but it did nothing to send a big fat message here in the U.S. Absolutely NOTHING. I'm very disappointed. We have one "small fish" that lied to save their hide big time and got away to swim another day. Funny thing from what I know the last ten years, he is not a "small fish". He was the biggest fish of all.

I say, it's time we regulate ourselves and go fishing.

Sir i applaud you honesty!!!:worship:

please take me fishing in florida!

 

[spiderpets]

the flash eating bacterium? my understanding its a CITES spider thing

yes, CITES tarantulas are endangered...you should nearly mean...why it is a big crime to send them international, why don't we need papers in the US and why it's also legal in Europe? What is the sense of CITES? Prosecuting breeders because they increase the demand and harm natural populations doing so?

 

[Ecstasy]

Thats right accomplice to murder isnt as bad as murder... I dont believe that the judicial system is in question here

I believe accessory is just as bad as actually committing the crime, but the law hasn't caught up with lots of things like science for example.

If you knowingly break the law, ranging from driving the car so somebody could rob a bank, I believe both people should receive equal punishment, but the law doesn't agree with that.

 

[webbedone]

in responce to spiderpets

translation: somebody who wanted to get payed, didnt get payed for what they wanted to get payed for.

 

[Steve Nunn]

Steve, Thanks for the info. I'm not big on the pms, but direct email will work. Sure, send me some links to read though.

Sure, will send through as soon as I can.

Yes, we all know Poecilotheria spp. are more toxic than other genera, but I still read they are considered with many tarantulas to be medically insignificant. I have not read of a single death attributed directly to a tarantula bite yet.

Me either, but that does not stop the prosecution from using any potential dangers (say, a bite to a child from an old world species, some of which have shown systemic symptoms) to state that these spiders could be dangerous.

Interesting, over 400 people are killed by dogs every year. So, huh, dogs are dangerous right? So why are airlines shipping dogs then?

Airlines ship bees all over the world too (and they kill more people than dogs in some countries). I think it might boil down to how they were packed (it would be hard to pack a dog in a box in a post parcel)?? I can only guess what they were thinking, and I don't think guesses help in this thread Maybe because the box wasn't properly marked, according to the rules of IATA??? I really do not know.

Also, flesh-eating bacteria being on tarantula's fans is interesting, but I was told that same bacteria is also on my the bottom of my shoe. So, I'm guessing the prosecution s t r e t c h t e d this two things to make them look worse than they actually are.

There is a published paper that lists Staphylococcus, Acinetobacter, Serratia, Pseudomonas and related bacteria close to Pseudomonas and Erwinia, that were cultured from wild caught T. apophysis and B. smithi. I don't know whether or not the prosecution looked into any of these bacteria, and I can't comment on them here with any authority.

Steve

 

[xenesthis]

danger

Thanks Steve. I'm interested in these studies because if you have followed the whole anti pet trade agenda against the reptile hobby the last few years, there is a storm coming for the invert hobby soon. When the anti pet trade organizations lobby certain law makers and use studies that can be stretched to imply tarantulas are dangerous and we can die from their flesh-eating bacteria, now they have great ammo to use to shut down the T hobby.

Folks, this is going to happen if you've been watching the reptile hobby's fight against it.

 

[webbedone]

its miraculous how years of research and publishing turns into "Eight legged freaks" with a little help of media. Whats next "Spiders on a plane"?

 

[Steve Nunn]

Well, an obvious question is how did Rick West end up being the expert witness?

Although you're right, he doesn't owe you an answer, his past career as a wildlife protection officer and over 40 years in the hobby and large list of peer reviewed publications, makes him an expert in the laws eyes, despite whether or not you like Rick, his reputation as an expert in this field is well founded and very well documented. You try and find someone with better credentials to do such a case in the US, then you might see why he was sought out by the USFWS prosecution (they had to reach as far as Canada to do it too).

I'm sure there are many spider experts in the US, but they probably do not have the publication list Rick has (by peer reviewed scientific journals) relating to tarantulas, have not been around tarantulas for over 40 years and, do not have the long history as a former wildlife protection officer.

Although he is a proffessional arachnologist, this case was not paid for. He took the case on because an authority needed his expert testimony for a case against a smuggler, a subject to which he is vehemently against (and was once paid to catch and convict). What better motive is there??? For money??? Hardly a good enough motive in my opinion. Perhaps his passion for tarantulas??? Just some thoughts of my own.

Do you mean Rick should not have responded to the USFWS prosecution because it might help to convict a smuggler?? Or might bring bad publicity to the hobby?? Are those really good motives NOT to testify?? In my opinion, no, they aren't. Not when your statements are also open for crossing by the defence, because then it is 100% objective. So, why ignore the case?? That would, in effect, support smuggling, and if you think that's appropriate, well, ok then, I disagree 100%.

Steve