Genus Cyriopagopus (a.k.a. Haplopelma)

[Steve Nunn]

Hi,
To those who think the male might not be a blue, how do you determine that your spiders are Cyriopagopus spp. and not, say Lampropelma??? To get even broader, how can you determine you spider fits in the Ornithoctoninae and not, say the Selenocosmiinae?? If you cannot answer this, then how can you question what species this spider may be??

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Singapore_Blue1]

Clearing up this matter

That is a pic of a cyriopagopus sp. blue. I own Cyriopagopus thorelli and the (Cyriopagopus sp.) Singapore blue both. That is a picture of a juvie. My female is about three inches and she looks identical. The male probably won't look much different until he gets a little older. If your still not convinced go to birdspiders.com and go into the picture gallery. Rick west has a picture of a juvie and a full grown adult female ( Cyriopagopus sp. #4.) The blue doesn't really come out until they get a little bigger. Also keep in mind that this species gets huge 9+ inches!!! My female is also very easy to handle. I have heard other people say the same.

 

[jeffh_x]

That is a pic of a cyriopagopus sp. blue. I own Cyriopagopus thorelli and the (Cyriopagopus sp.) Singapore blue both. That is a picture of a juvie. My female is about three inches and she looks identical. The male probably won't look much different until he gets a little older. If your still not convinced go to birdspiders.com and go into the picture gallery. Rick west has a picture of a juvie and a full grown adult female ( Cyriopagopus sp. #4.) The blue doesn't really come out until they get a little bigger. Also keep in mind that this species gets huge 9+ inches!!! My female is also very easy to handle. I have heard other people say the same.

u said the male wudn look much different until he gets a little older..so wat exactly do the males look like when they mature? thats all i wanna know...thanks..

 

[Martin H.]

Hi " Singapore_Blue1" ,

I own Cyriopagopus thorelli

may I ask what makes you think, that you do posses a C. thorelli and not e.g. a C. schioedtei_

all the best,
Martin

 

[Singapore_Blue1]

It is a C.thorelli

First of all; what is up with you people and questioning what other people have? I know what I have because my earth tiger has a black carapace (only thorelli has that!!!! The other variation has more of a gold/green hue on the carapace!!!), and for the fact that I've seen the other variation in person. Check out Rick Wests site (birdspiders.com). Also it was sold to me as thorelli, and I have verified it as such by using the above mentioned site! I also have a Cyriopagopus sp.(Singapore blue) are you next going to question me if I actually have that? I own many rare and hard to get spiders.

 

[Martin H.]

I know what I have because my earth tiger has a black carapace (only thorelli has that!!!! The other variation has more of a gold/green hue on the carapace!!!), and for the fact that I've seen the other variation in person. Check out Rick Wests site (birdspiders.com). Also it was sold to me as thorelli, and I have verified it as such by using the above mentioned site!

did I understand you right, that the ID of your specimen came from comparing photos and colours on photos!? Sounds like an easy way to ID species – wished I would have the knowledge to do such photo IDs too! =;-)

nix für ungut!
Martin

 

[Aviculariinae]

Hi Steve,

Hi,
how can you determine you spider fits in the Ornithoctoninae and not, say the Selenocosmiinae?? If you cannot answer this, then how can you question what species this spider may be??

Thanks,
Steve

This is a good question.....but why i feel the people who the know answer to these sort of questions will not explain how to distinguish between the two to others,but are often the first ones to be the critics;-)

 

[Bean]

Hi Steve,

This is a good question.....but why i feel the people who the know answer to these sort of questions will not explain how to distinguish between the two to others,but are often the first ones to be the critics;-)

What you're asking for is, in my opinion, unrealistic. That would be similar to me trying to, say, teach you how to be an electrician in an afternoon.

The info is out there, and I, for one, have seen many who hold vast knowledge on the subject patiently repeat themselves and provide many references for study... only to have another individual come along who has not invested the time to make qualified comments on the subject.

I appreciate every bit of wisdom and information that trickles down, even if it's just a comment to remind us how much more we have to learn.

 

[Aviculariinae]

Hi,
There are basic guidelines that can be followed im not looking for a complete overhaul :wall: some/certain traits can be seen in pictures.Also how can you study when you don,t know what certain things are.. i have being posting here a while and i have yet to see this sort of info posted,if you can direct to a post that says so i will offer my apologies now.

 

[FryLock]

Hi Steve,

This is a good question.....but why i feel the people who the know answer to these sort of questions will not explain how to distinguish between the two to others,but are often the first ones to be the critics;-)

I to agree with much of that statement Brendan (as I and a few others have argued the same thing in the past on pic ID threads) but Steve is one of the few who often does put his “money were his mouth is” when questions are raised, tho it’s not always possible in some cases to give a straight answer to all questions (also info given in some cases could prejudice ppl’s work in progress)

There are basic guidelines that can be followed im not looking for a complete overhaul some/certain traits can be seen in pictures.Also how can you study when you don,t know what certain things are.. i have being posting here a while and i have yet to see this sort of info posted,if you can direct to a post that says so i will offer my apologies now.

Thats a good point also if you dont know what to look for your stabing in the dark, you can find a lot in the few good papers that can be found online (plus Smith's books although there out of date now), as for Steve's Q first Id look to see if the spider had a plumose pad (a pad of feathered setae) on the outer face of the chelicerae that form part stridulating organ of the Ornithoctoninae (remembering that one African subfamily as a similar set up) if that was not present then I would look at the inside face (prolateral) of the palps maxilla for the lyra that form the stridulating organ of the Selenocosminae* (that one could not be done from an overall pic tho), then start the hard work of finding genus or send it to some one that knows what there doing

Edit: *Phlogiellus (and Neochilobrachys disbanded ATM) and maybe a few others may have reduced/absent lyra compaired to others in the subfamily I can't remeber for sure :8o.

 

[Singapore_Blue1]

Listen!!!

The tarantula was sold to me as C.thorelli. I used the pic on Rick West's site to verify it for myself. I am aware that you can't just go by photos; however the dealer I got it from was very trustworthy and he assured me that it was thorelli!!! The smart comments don't need to be made. I'm not new at this so don't insult me with condesending comments.

 

[brgn]

The tarantula was sold to me as C.thorelli. I used the pic on Rick West's site to verify it for myself. I am aware that you can't just go by photos; however the dealer I got it from was very trustworthy and he assured me that it was thorelli!!! The smart comments don't need to be made. I'm not new at this so don't insult me with condesending comments.

C. schioedtei was sold under the name thorelli for a long time.

Robert

 

[RaZeDaHeLL666]

Cool spider.

 

[RazorRipley]

So this singapore blue isnt nearly as uncommon as people are trying to make it appear to be. Ive read half way through this forum alone and noticed 4 people speaking of theirs. Suddenly the 400 dollars that people are asking seems VERY VERY high Pretty Spiders, and I hope you all enjoy them.

 

[Steve Nunn]

as for Steve's Q first Id look to see if the spider had a plumose pad (a pad of feathered setae) on the outer face of the chelicerae that form part stridulating organ of the Ornithoctoninae (remembering that one African subfamily as a similar set up) if that was not present then I would look at the inside face (prolateral) of the palps maxilla for the lyra that form the stridulating organ of the Selenocosminae* (that one could not be done from an overall pic tho), then start the hard work of finding genus or send it to some one that knows what there doing

Edit: *Phlogiellus (and Neochilobrachys disbanded ATM) and maybe a few others may have reduced/absent lyra compaired to others in the subfamily I can't remeber for sure :8o.

Hi Fry and Brendan,
Yes, I have posted several in detail answers (including published keys in their entirety, such as the Selenocosmiinae key from Raven 1985, it is on this board somewhere. Even though it is indeed rather outdated and there are errors we now know about, it is one of the very few keys available at all). As for the difference between Selenocosmiinae and Ornithoctoninae as Fry said you would need to look at the stridulating organ (there is another valid genus that does not possess the organ, Yamia, from the Selenocosmiinae. Yes, it is now resurrected ). To add more typically the organ is reversed in each subfamily. The bacillae are found on the prolateral face of the maxillae in Selenocosmiines and in the Ornithoctoninae the bacillae are found on the lower basal retrolateral cheliceral face. I believe the Pterinochilus and several other closely related genera possess the scopulate like patch on the chelicera Fry. Not sure though, they aren't my thing

The bacillae are the club/spiniform/spatulate/peglike shaped bristles that are usually larger then the rest of the setae found either on the maxillae (Selenocosmiinae), or the chelicerae (Ornithoctoninae).

I should add that the"strikers are the opposing setae/bristles that are often very spiniform/spinelike and rub against the bacillae to make the hissing sound. As with the bacillae the strikers are of course also reversed.

Cheers,
Steve

 

[Tony]

Hi " Singapore_Blue1" ,

may I ask what makes you think, that you do posses a C. thorelli and not e.g. a C. schioedtei_

all the best,
Martin

That is one hell of a tub of popcorn, what is this, the 5th month....Free refills perhaps?

T

 

[FryLock]

Hi Fry and Brendan,
Yes, I have posted several in detail answers (including published keys in their entirety, such as the Selenocosmiinae key from Raven 1985, it is on this board somewhere. Even though it is indeed rather outdated and there are errors we now know about, it is one of the very few keys available at all). As for the difference between Selenocosmiinae and Ornithoctoninae as Fry said you would need to look at the stridulating organ (there is another valid genus that does not possess the organ, Yamia, from the Selenocosmiinae. Yes, it is now resurrected ).

Yes just found that thread >Here< (and had a good chuckle at it too) how I forgot about Yamia I don’t know seeing as I posted about them a few months back (and like even like them), was not sure about Phlogiellus seeing as Neochilobrachys were in synonymy with them now, Smith listed Neochilobrachys as with “primitive stridulating organ” so maybe there closer to Yamia if that is the case (I know someone else has posted about a related topic in the past but I won’t raise it in case new info has changed opinions).

I could only see two biggys with that DK (not that could do one myself) the Peg setae only being found in Coremiocnemis.sp and the bent/cracked tarsi on leg IV not listing some south Asian Chilobrachys.sp that have it (although both points I only know though Volker posting them :worship: ) of course the last one may not be 100% wrong as you have said there maybe a few genera in amongst many of the Chilo species waiting to be sorted out if that is the case that character may not apply to species in all of them.

I believe the Pterinochilus and several other closely related genera possess the scopulate like patch on the chelicera Fry. Not sure though, they aren't my thing

You don't have "Baboon Spiders" (the book of course)

 

[Steve Nunn]

was not sure about Phlogiellus seeing as Neochilobrachys were in synonymy with them now, Smith listed Neochilobrachys as with “primitive stridulating organ” so maybe there closer to Yamia if that is the case (I know someone else has posted about a related topic in the past but I won’t raise it in case new info has changed opinions).

Hi Fry,
Phlogiellus are currently a mess. They are fairly much just a melting pot of smaller Selenocosmiines with no real autapomorphies. Tarsal division is a weak character and the presence of a third claw on leg IV can be found in several other Selenocosmiine genera (Yamia, Coremiocnemis, some Selenocosmia spp. and perhaps others). Neochilobrachys mutus has been transfered from Phlogiellus to Yamia due to it's lack of a stridulating organ (as well as the former Baccallbrapo bundokalbo), which could now be considered an autapomorphy for the Yamia (along with the combination of a longitudinal keeled embolus and divided cymbium in mature males, defining characters to seperate the Selenocosmiinae from the Ischnocolinae).

I could only see two biggys with that DK (not that could do one myself) the Peg setae only being found in Coremiocnemis.sp and the bent/cracked tarsi on leg IV not listing some south Asian Chilobrachys.sp that have it (although both points I only know though Volker posting them :worship: ) of course the last one may not be 100% wrong as you have said there maybe a few genera in amongst many of the Chilo species waiting to be sorted out if that is the case that character may not apply to species in all of them.

Yes, the intercheliceral pegs. This is true they aren't only found on Coremiocnemis, but on one species of Lyrognathus (dubious placing), the Javan/Malaysian Selenocosmia and a group of very interesting Selenocosmiines central to PNG. That said, it's my personal opinion that the morphology of the pegs varies, to what extent I cannot say.

The cracked and bent tarsus IV is a very difficult call at this stage. Depending on the specimen and what is actually being looked at, a cracked and bent tarsus IV can probably be found on nearly every theraphosid exuvia and also an older preserved specimen. The suture that creates the crack is present in most genera and as a result if the specimen is dry, or an exuvium, or an older wet specimen, then the tarsus warps post mortem, creating a perceived crack that is not present in the live specimen.

That alone is cause for concern, given the age of most described specimens (over 100 years) is not going to aid the cause at all. Whether or not the cracked tarsus is found on Chilobrachys live specimens would be an interesting topic Yes, I think the Chilobrachys need sorting too, there is significant variation in the stridulating organ AND the spermethecae of both described and undescribed specimens. I do not believe that specimens such as the "Asian smokey" will eventually fit into the Chilobrachys, among others.

There are one or two other errors that need correction. For example Selenotypus is not defined by the larger leg IV then I, the stridulating organ is a far better character for Raven's key as it differs to the organ of close relatives. Also IMHO Raven could have gone into more detail on the Orphnaecus lyra as the shape is unique to the genus.

Rather then synonymising the genera/species, in this case it may be wise to errect new genera in several instances.

Cheers,
Steve

 

[FryLock]

Cheers for that info Steve :worship: I was wondering myself how those smaller Selenocosmiinae differed from the Ischnocolinae (iirc there may have been some talk they could have been closer to the latter then where there now placed) some of them that iv seen certainly look very reminiscent of the new world Ischnocolinae but having keeled palpal embolus would put that idea right out of the ball park, next time I see a big Chilo il have a look at the at IV tarsi im guessing a fresh dead specimen would be needed in case the scopulate covered the crack tho, or balls of steel to feel with your finger tips .

 

[Aviculariinae]

Hi all,
Thats some great info and the type of stuff that i like to read,Sorry steve if it sounded like i was singling you out, but that was not my intention,i meant it ina general response.

Now am just curious is the word "strikers" a term that is often used in describing the bristles,or is this a word you like to use yourself?

Its a pitty,my passion is new world arboreals and info like this is very hard to come by.

Is it just me or does it seem that Selenocosmiinae is nearly as mixed up as the Aviculariinae subfamily.

Autapomorphies! Care to explain?