cross-breeding t's

[lizmotobike]

I am so sorry but why do i always think "troll" when anyone with low post no.s mentions crossbreeding? That and theres another topic (that i can't recall right now ) always makes me go hmmmmmmm..........its almost like they searched locked topics.

 

[ZoSoLp510]

tight. that is what i wanted to here. just to maximally cover bases... did she molt in between the infertile sac and the mating?

Yeah .. she sure did... I think last year it was.

 

[C_Strike]

Ok, well just keep them yourside of the pond, i will be furious if it gets to the point that i ever buy a hybrid being sold as a genuine..
It really annoys me that people feel a need for this..sheesh, nevermind
go ahead and ruin bloodlines, intentionally or not!
Look at B vagans for example. Youl be pushed to find a genuine example rather thana hybrid.. at least in EU that is! ...why?... crossbreeding.

Whether it means anything at all, all my respect goes out the window for amateurs dabbling with crossbreeding unless the crossbreeding is for a PROPER scientific journal done by a renqon expert in the field with set results of what to do with the young...feed to other tarantuas or something, basically kill them.
You cant gfuarantee who wll buy e,m, u cant guarantee who they will sell them to, and under what name!
U say u dont condone playing god, yet that is exactly what you are doing, lol

This isnt an emotional blab, this is my judgements based on a scientific understanding, weighing up pros, and cons... and being a keeper of them, i wanna know what i buy, W/O having to worry about whether it is what it says it is.

 

[Talkenlate04]

I dont know the more I think about it the more I start to turn a bit. I am against letting something like this get sold to the general public....... but if the coupling does produce a sac and there are young, does that not mean they could have done that on their own in nature? Many of the natural T habitats out there overlap. I myself did not know every Brachy habitat overlaps, and other genuses over lap into theirs. So ya I guess my point it it will be a learning experience for everyone in the hobby if this works, but I still stick by not letting a single one of the offspring get out into the mainstream hobby.

 

[C_Strike]

as far as i know, many Brachys have borders overlying, theyr all Bracys anywho, its accepted that Brachys do hybridise in wild, but its not accepted as the normal thing, it happens, its not TOO uncmmon, but still, its not every day this kind of thing happens.
chile rose are generally taken from the Attacama desert Chile, The curly hair comes from Honduras, central America...a good distance away, so i dont think hybridising in the wild could be possible here, unless the territories actually are much more expanse than i assume.

 

[Talkenlate04]

I agree with you on the Rosea albo situation........but someone said it once already in this thread, if they do produce then how can they be that far apart in genetics? Would they still be seperate enough to be in different genuses? Or does that put them in the same genus and we have to re evaluate how we are classing things? It's an interesting thing to think about.

 

[cacoseraph]

as far as i know, many Brachys have borders overlying, theyr all Bracys anywho, its accepted that Brachys do hybridise in wild, but its not accepted as the normal thing, it happens, its not TOO uncmmon, but still, its not every day this kind of thing happens.
chile rose are generally taken from the Attacama desert Chile, The curly hair comes from Honduras, central America...a good distance away, so i dont think hybridising in the wild could be possible here, unless the territories actually are much more expanse than i assume.

i don't think their borders touch, but they are closer than you think. granted, still 1000miles apart at least... but rosea go farther north and albopilosum go farther south than it sounds like you think

Ok, well just keep them yourside of the pond, i will be furious if it gets to the point that i ever buy a hybrid being sold as a genuine..
It really annoys me that people feel a need for this..sheesh, nevermind
go ahead and ruin bloodlines, intentionally or not!
Look at B vagans for example. Youl be pushed to find a genuine example rather thana hybrid.. at least in EU that is! ...why?... crossbreeding.

Whether it means anything at all, all my respect goes out the window for amateurs dabbling with crossbreeding unless the crossbreeding is for a PROPER scientific journal done by a renqon expert in the field with set results of what to do with the young...feed to other tarantuas or something, basically kill them.
You cant gfuarantee who wll buy e,m, u cant guarantee who they will sell them to, and under what name!
U say u dont condone playing god, yet that is exactly what you are doing, lol

This isnt an emotional blab, this is my judgements based on a scientific understanding, weighing up pros, and cons... and being a keeper of them, i wanna know what i buy, W/O having to worry about whether it is what it says it is.

i hate to break it to you but you almost certainly have something we would probably define as a hybrid already. like avics?

buy captive bred? lots? especially the fancy genera? hysterocrates?

oops, you got a hybrid. i'd bet the last digit of my littlest toe on my left foot that if you have bought from over 20 different "lots", be it cbb sacs (especially certain genera) or imports of certain WC genera then almost for certain you have some kind of hybrid, intergrade, who the hell knows.... and that is the huge problem. we know very little about hybridization in tarantulas. we know TONS about it in other stuff, bugs even, cuz so much work has been done on it. but those are all more economically significant animals than the essentially er, minor-hobby economy tarantulas are responsible for.

so.... as long as he is careful, and IF, hybrids get produced... he would almost definitely show the world something that it didn't know it already knew

SO... when hobbyists carefully try to contribute to the somewhat meager knowledgepool the hobby draws from i tend to encourage them. but hey, that's just me, and i just like to learn stuff.

 

[Python]

i hate to break it to you but you almost certainly have something we would probably define as a hybrid already.

I didn't know that. I find that interesting but not terribly surprising.

we know very little about hybridization in tarantulas. we know TONS about it in other stuff, bugs even, cuz so much work has been done on it. but those are all more economically significant animals than the essentially er, minor-hobby economy tarantulas are responsible for.

Good point. You are absolutely right about it too. I think that hybrids also have something to contribute to the research. If the two T's in question indeed produce viable offspring, that is one more thing learned and that information can be useful even if it does pi$$ people off. The great thinkers of the world have always been ridiculed though so I suppose you're in good company.

SO... when hobbyists carefully try to contribute to the somewhat meager knowledgepool the hobby draws from i tend to encourage them. but hey, that's just me, and i just like to learn stuff.

Preach on!

 

[ShadowBlade]

SO... when hobbyists carefully try to contribute to the somewhat meager knowledgepool the hobby draws from i tend to encourage them. but hey, that's just me, and i just like to learn stuff.

Exactly. And I have ZERO problem with it, as long as it is done responsibly. I don't care what people do with their T's. I don't care if you try breed a spider that's venom will genetically enhance your reflexes, vision, and physical strength, making web come out of your wrists. Just don't distribute them as B. albopilosum

And you've made a good point, that I barely touched on. What he have now, we can't even tell are hybrids or not. But, like I said, what's been done in the past, and in the wild does not justify our actions now.

-Sean

 

[C_Strike]

I wholey agree, but thats my point, i want to know..as it stands i dont.. i know i have a B vagans...obviously gonna be a hybrid.
I dont want to buy hybrids, because if im not told, i dont know... then i wud breed from it and still call the offspring genuine to my knowledge.
I wont knowingly buy them, or contrubite, willingly, to the hybridisation as its bad enough trying to know whether you have a real specimen or not.
I have no hysterocrates, nor avics. I have done in the past, the only avic i wud buy is avic avic, its cheap and TBH it could turn out to be anything. they all look the same.. the calssification of them is in turmoil as im sure you are aware.
The only way i am comfortable is when buying is from respected taonomists and such, a large portion of my stock is from Ray Gabrilel, Phil Mesenger, JM Verdez yada yada...
I trust them, but im aware that even they can make id mistakes...generally though if they arent sure it wont be given a species name rather Avic. sp.
More hybridising means more confusion, it will push the price of genuine specimens up too.
ook at B vagans again, genuine specimens cost a bit more than the usual petstore specimens.


Im all for advancing knowledge, but the hobby isnt mature enough to deal with hybrids IMO, not everyone that owns and is into the tarantula hobby would be bothered about selling any red bummed black brachy a a B epicureanum. What is the chaneces of it really being a true specimen..i would bet its vagans tbh
I say hybridising is something that should have some kind of legislation to.. set of rules..and be carried out in a place of science where there are strict understandings and rules to how to deal with the offspring.
In an ideal world, if i thought everything i was buying was truely that species i would say yes..carry on..note it into a journal then peer review it.
As it stands, i know that you cant truely trust anyone. I really am that concerned that it will mess the 'authenticity' of the species furthur.. Be it 10years down the line or what ever.

 

[C_Strike]

I would be more than happy to read off a list of my collection so you coulld point out suspect species. I would be much appreciated no worries if not though.
Its just to clear it in my own head, and i would be happy to take it to the natural history and ask for a proper id to be carried out...if they would ofcourse. lol
Mostly theraphosa, Pamphobeteus, and Cyriopagopus..oo some Ceratogyrus meridionalis many other individuals

 

[cacoseraph]

I would be more than happy to read off a list of my collection so you coulld point out suspect species. I would be much appreciated no worries if not though.
Its just to clear it in my own head, and i would be happy to take it to the natural history and ask for a proper id to be carried out...if they would ofcourse. lol
Mostly theraphosa, Pamphobeteus, and Cyriopagopus..oo some Ceratogyrus meridionalis many other individuals

off the top of my head i would research and look at your pampho's and ceratogyrus. i believe i have read something to the effect of "mistakes might have been made, and hybrids unknowingly produced" for both of them

the fact of the matter is that a LOT of id's are made with pentaxonomy and off coloration... BAD things to bet on! to ID to species, even in well defined genera is not about colors... typically it is mophological micrometrics, though sometimes it is pretty apparent to the naked eye





also re: "the tarantula hobby is not ready for messing around with hybrids"... well, we already ARE... but we know next to nothing about the process and results... so i would say, in some senses, it is critical that we find out as much about it as possible... if for no other reason THAN to segregate hybrid and "pure" stock that are intermingling right now

 

[C_Strike]

If my pamphos are hybrids, it would be from wild.. they are only of one species, 7 Pamphobeteus 'South equador'
TBH, i agree with you, i want to know, as the general concensus is, it would furthur define the Linneaus classification system. I thin its highly valuable info. BUT.. its the after aff4ects that worry me, the sale of the offspring, its obvious with cornsake/ jungles.
How many people have them, lots, how many people know they are hybrids, very few. When they are bred 'thought to be Cornsnakes' the offspring then are labeled cornsnakes, not hybrids.
Thats why i think if its to be done, it need some kind of stringlent rule system, in some level of lab environment. I dont mean sterile white, clean and empty. i mean secure, so as any offspring are dealt with some how, but killed off if no humane way is possible. MAybe my hopes on this topic are idealist, but i do feel that there is a very fine line between what is too much.

I do realise that my opinion is just that, my opinion so im gonna do my best to stay outa this kinda discussions, lol
I would jsut hope it doesnt get to the point of messing it all up. I would be nice if it was guaranteed the offspring are sold as hybrid, but reality is far different.

 

[Nerri1029]

Allow me to distill and play devil's advocate for both sides.


Arguement #1 -
"Scientific Discovery" trying new things is how science advances.
- that said.. trying random things without some research is irresponsible.
- the T's involved could have easily both been killed.
- they are his T's so while it's distateful to many .. no foul
- if a sac is produced then THAT alone is a big deal scientifically but I don't think your actions were driven by anything along those lines. ( IMO )

Arguement #2 -
"Vialble Sac and it's future" From my meager understanding of genetics and species - if these two T's are of different genus then the likely hood of any being fertile is very low.. and that is after the huge if a sac is even produced.
- selling them to responsible keepers is not good enough. Let's throw out the ruining the gene pool idea.. and look at it from the assumption of sterile offspring ( ala Donkeys )
- if I get one of these not knowing it's a hybrid ( sterile ) and try to breed I'm going to have a 0% chance of a sac.
- keeping them all or destroying them / sending them to a researcher would be the most logical solution.


personally I'm not mad that you did it.
- I think it was a bit foolish to endanger your T's
- and Naive to think that you can control where these end up ( IF YOU EVER get anything from this pairing )

 

[Sheri]

Now we need a mod to come through here.

Yeah?

Why not report a a thread to a mod before we drag massmurdering dictators into it?

Every post I delete, edit, every infraction I give takes about 2 minutes. Add it up, do the math and next time, do me a favour and report a freaking post for me.

Thanks. :evil:

As for crossbreeding - this hobby is taxonomically messed up enough without every new enthusiast trying to see what creation they can come up with before losing interest and pissing into the our captive gene pool with their little experiments.

Responsible hobbyists and breeders do it occasionally - but these are the ones that the general hobby doesn't hear about - because the offspring is frozen or studied and shared only with others intellectually and academically inclined.

 

[Marcel_h]

I dont have a problem with it. As long that offspring doesnt show up in the trade.

 

[spid142]

crossbreeds

A worry for me is it could lead to whats happened in the 'purebred' cat and dog breeding. Someone crosses cat A and cat B and gets something unusual or unique ( probly a detrimental mutation, like no hair or something), and for whatever reason the crossbreeder thinks that because only he/she has this new 'breed' for now, they want to continue this mutation because the 'breed' can be sold as a new breed for a lot of money initially. No matter that its detrimental to the cat to have this mutation, the crossbreeder wants to perpetuate it. Sure, some are pretty harmless, color/pattern changes, but other mutations are really bad. T crossbreeding, sadly, would probably go this route too. Look at the 'rarity' and price of some of our Ts just recently that have been found and coming into the market. These are 'natural' unique patterns/ colors that are in demand for various reasons, like the intense blue pattern of the gooty pokie. Inevitable, once crossbreeding is accepted, unique and high-priced man-made 'rarities' will be sold. Is this bad? If the pattern really appealed to me, id be honest, and say I would be tempted to buy. But the original parents' pattern would be bred out which is bad.

 

[Tim St.]

With Pure Bred Pets such as Dogs, Cats, horses Ect. you need to register your Pure bred pet, pretty much join the say "Canadin Arachno club" sign up and pay up and get a magizen every year with yearly events where you can show off your T's and win prizes on size or colouration ect. If anyone starts a registy, they would have to keep proper Documents IE. a serial number at birth and registry name (Mine was Scarfaces Ash'n sugar for my pure bred English Bull terrier) on a web site and hard copy to trace blood lines, to start this you'd bit of back round of where the spider was bought or from what dealer(You would have to get dealers in on this to make it work so they could give id numbers on sac's then slings)
And when the T is sold there would have to be a transfer of paper work and such, or if dead you have to report it, breeding reports also. it wouldt be no small task, prolly better off only doing this with CB T's but its en idea that could bring this hobby to a whole new level of play. The hobby is not that big yet and this would be the best time to start. Everyone wants to be part of something bigger. to make this work youd need the help of everyone every where, it might take a few years but it could be a International thing with the help of dealers all over the world, have three registry groups: WC, CB,CB2-(Cross Breed).
This is just en idea so please dont flame me,

*THIS IS ALL IMO*PLEASE OVER LOOK SPELLING ERRORS*

 

[ShadowBlade]

Sheri, if you come back, could you please lock this thread?

People are going to spread misinformed information and get into more fights. There are plenty of informed debates about this topic that should be made into a sticky to stop more of these threads. Even this one (to a point).

-Sean

 

[Sheri]

There is a huge difference between different breeds of domestic cat (which is ONE species) and crossbreeding separate species of spiders.

When there are some 800 known species of tarantulas and dozens in the hobby - some of which are being sold before classified into a species - there is much more at stake than merely trying to get the perfect color with the perfect disposition.

I would ask that anyone thinking of crossbreeding be fully prepared to freeze your hybrids as you'll only be doing the hobby harm if they are sold into it.

As for locking this thread - if people insist on going in the same circles over and over again - I take no issue with it so long as they stay within the rules of this forum.