cross-breeding t's

[JungleGuts]

its not something i support. Even if you do tell everyone you sell the slings to that its not pureblood you cant possibily know what all the buyers are doing to do with their sling, or who there gonna eventually breed it with...it can cause ALOT of confusion.

 

[cacoseraph]

so i guess no one saw the vid where the kid put a MM obt in with a fem or immature male pinktoe?

pinktoe kept throwing threats and the obt kept trying to penetrate it =P



also, if you want to crossbreed i just read a SWEET trick in my Lifetime Insects book



take male and female (1.1 male.female) of species A and 1.1 of B

you shark cage 1.1 A
you shark cage 1.1 B

once both pairs are all hot and bothered and have their mating reflexes full triggered you
pair 1.0 A with 0.1 B
pair 0.1 A with 1.0 B
this maximizes the chances of crossbreeding by taking as much advantage of species queues for mating reflex as possible.


i sure don't know if you are going to get viables, assuming any sort of sperm exchange for sure did take place or anything like that. one thing... odds are your female is WC... so even if she drops a sac.... dunno what it has in it.

you might be able to get some kinda genescreener to help you out. dunno if they can tell species by genetic analysis for taras though.


... be interesting if they could, cuz that would mean they figured out conclusively what the exact definition of species is. heh.

 

[Drachenjager]

Hi all!

I was just wondering if anyone has ever heard of anybody cross breeding tarantulas before?

I was thinking about how they do it with dogs and snakes and stuff and I thought, "I wonder if anyone has tried it with tarantulas?" Long story short, curiosity got the best of me and I put my female Chillean Rose and my male Honduran Curly Hair together last night and they did mate! She went for the male a couple of times, but somehow the male managed to avoid the danger and do his thing. I'm going to try a repeat mating probably tomorrow night or wednesday. I'm pretty amazed... hopefully all of this will result in some pretty cool babies! :drool:

please dont do that .. you should read the forums and search for this topic gheesh crossbreeding get you things like hairless yorkipoos

 

[Drachenjager]

I dunno as much about spiders as most people on this forum do, but isn't it generally true, at least with dogs and horses (I dunno about cats), that it's the purebreds which tend to <EDIT>poo poo<EDIT> up the gene pool? All our purebred dogs have lots of health problems which mutts don't tend to have. Our horses are fine but that's because we buy race horse semen and stuff - and even then whenever we buy a new horse my mother has to go crazy studying the genealogy of the horses to make sure that it's both a purebred gypsy horse and that it won't come out with hemophilia or whatever.

If the concern is that those in the industry of selling spiders are dishonest and unknowledgeable to the point as to cause a serious risk to buying purebred tarantulas, and if it is true that some tarantulas no longer exist in the wild as has been previously been said, I can hardly see how that would be the fault of the person who started this thread.

the problem is partly that the taxonomy of tarantuals is in a fair amount of dissaray and the Anophopelma in Texas is a disaster as well as other genus. Now you go and make hybrids and that further messes it up ... and its not beign purbred that messes dogs up its the inbreeding. inbreeding any species will eventually mess it up. if you have unrelated pairs and breed sensibly outsice close reletives you dong get these genetic problems stacking up in individuals

 

[138]

that it's the purebreds which tend to <EDIT>poo poo<EDIT> up the gene pool? All our purebred dogs have lots of health problems which mutts don't tend to have.

correction, a pure breed "inbread' dog usually has health problems. some pure breed dogs have been inbread so much in the past by greedy owners that now those pure breed dogs have health issues. don't know if that makes any sense but...

and as far as dogs go, a male and female from the same litter is considered inbreeding. a sire(male/father) and pup(female/daughter) or dam(female/mother) and pup(male/son) from the same litter is line breeding which is common and accepted, but i personally don't agree with.

i have 2 dogs, 1 mixed and 1 pure breed. neither has any health issues. my pure breed dog was purchased from a reputable breeder with documented lineage back 7 generations.

 

[Drachenjager]

I really don't see what the big deal is. People cross breed different animals all the time. I do have one question though - if you come out with fertile spiders, how can they really be considered of a different genus? Actually, isn't the litmus test for determining if two organisms are different species the fact that the organisms either won't breed or can't breed fertile offspring? If they can and do, but are substantially different wouldn't that make them different breeds of the same species?

cross bred horses are same species cross, mutt dogs are same species crosses, wolf / dog cross is same genus cross.. see a pattern?

 

[TheDarkFinder]

cross bred horses are same species cross, mutt dogs are same species crosses, wolf / dog cross is same genus cross.. see a pattern?

No, what about?

I will just hang my head in shame, and put down the keyboard.

I think a lot of people here need to do a lot of research. So far I have read very little here that is actually true, but this topic has been beaten to death, the search function will give you all the information you will want to read.

Now we need a mod to come through here.

 

[widowkeeper]

correction, a pure breed "inbread' dog usually has health problems. some pure breed dogs have been inbread so much in the past by greedy owners that now those pure breed dogs have health issues. don't know if that makes any sense but...

and as far as dogs go, a male and female from the same litter is considered inbreeding. a sire(male/father) and pup(female/daughter) or dam(female/mother) and pup(male/son) from the same litter is line breeding which is common and accepted, but i personally don't agree with.

line breeding is why you dont buy dobermans from almost all breeders in wa state ive kept dobermans for the last 25 years and it has taken me over a year at times to find acceptable dobies here the breed is so screwed up by some of the ppl selling (papered) and or non papered dobies with questionable lines ive met and talked to many ppl over the years and it just keeps geting worse my next dobies will be from out of state

i still dont agree with cross breeding even same genus simply because every time one gets mated to anything out of its species and passed on to other ppl there is change if enough get out it could be the end on one or many orignal species. dogs and horses are not shipped by slings of 50 or more then distributed to hundreds of ppl who then can breed and sell as clean & purebred. no harm you say we would just get a new species of spider. true but every time someone gets the (idea hey i think ill try to make a new spider today )the bloodlies of the original get thinner and thinner, what makes it so bad imho is that each time it a viable sac is made it has the potential to spread sometimes hunderds of slings through the industry. no one can tell me that would not be damaging to the species it came from ,10 years from now it could be a commen thing to attempt breeding as long as they are the same genus .hell in 15 /20 maybe we will be down just a few differnt genus because most species have been so interbred that the differnces are just gone. if its done it should be done rite no offspring should ever leave your house untill you have made a viable new species and have enough to safely distribute them and then labled as man made not just a new species .i think its all just a bad idea its not that one person will doom the sp its the chance that one cool man made spider can and would encourage more ppl to try to make more thats when the problem starts

my 2 cents

 

[T-chick]

If any one hasn't noticed.. Dogs now have hip dysplasia, bad teeth, bad eye sight, tumors, blindness, deafness, seizures.. and they don't live as long as they did only 30-40 years ago.
Horses are getting blood disorders, seizures, skin diseases, and a host of other things that are now required to be tested for in order for the horse to be registered. Some cause the horse's eyes to bulge and pop out. Others cause horses to have bad knees and joints, parrot mouth/jaw, cow hocks.
And you think that because some idiot decided that it would be okay to breed to different breed's of horse or dog, that it is okay to breed two different genus of Tarantula??!!

Yes there have been Ligers, and cross bred rhinos. But most people didn't think they would cross breed due to the fact they are from different continents and the like. Those mistakes were done in captivity, and giagantism is one of the problems faced by Ligers.

I think it comes down to personal responsibility, and a feeling of duty and trust. If you aren't willing to accept personal responsibility for what you may have done, then what else are you willing to do? OR to stand by and let happen.
You took on the responsibility of caring and having these creatures in your home. They aren't your kitten or mom's dog, you have to understand where each one of these tarantula's comes from in the wild. A cat can have a few kittens, and you will most likely find homes for them.. A few may end up at a pound, others may get run over or lost. The same for a litter of puppies.
What do you propose to do with hundreds of crossbred spiders?
There is a sense of pride with people in the hobby, they consider it a noble deed to help perpetuate the species they have for the hobby. BUT they do it to conserve the species they have and keep. NOT to get bored, drunk or just for the heck of it put two different species together and see what happens.
Unless you want to possibly see one eaten. They have tried communal set ups, with some getting eaten. And others we see posts where they truly did try to breed a certain species, and the male was killed.
Is life so unimportant to you that you have to get your kicks from seeing possible blood and gore?
That is like going to the rooster fights, or dog fights. It is inhumane and unbecoming of a normal human being.
Please think about what you do, why you do it, and how it helps you, and those around you. OR hurts you and those around you.

JMHO

 

[ZoSoLp510]

If any one hasn't noticed.. Dogs now have hip dysplasia, bad teeth, bad eye sight, tumors, blindness, deafness, seizures.. and they don't live as long as they did only 30-40 years ago.
Horses are getting blood disorders, seizures, skin diseases, and a host of other things that are now required to be tested for in order for the horse to be registered. Some cause the horse's eyes to bulge and pop out. Others cause horses to have bad knees and joints, parrot mouth/jaw, cow hocks.
And you think that because some idiot decided that it would be okay to breed to different breed's of horse or dog, that it is okay to breed two different genus of Tarantula??!!

Yes there have been Ligers, and cross bred rhinos. But most people didn't think they would cross breed due to the fact they are from different continents and the like. Those mistakes were done in captivity, and giagantism is one of the problems faced by Ligers.

I think it comes down to personal responsibility, and a feeling of duty and trust. If you aren't willing to accept personal responsibility for what you may have done, then what else are you willing to do? OR to stand by and let happen.
You took on the responsibility of caring and having these creatures in your home. They aren't your kitten or mom's dog, you have to understand where each one of these tarantula's comes from in the wild. A cat can have a few kittens, and you will most likely find homes for them.. A few may end up at a pound, others may get run over or lost. The same for a litter of puppies.
What do you propose to do with hundreds of crossbred spiders?
There is a sense of pride with people in the hobby, they consider it a noble deed to help perpetuate the species they have for the hobby. BUT they do it to conserve the species they have and keep. NOT to get bored, drunk or just for the heck of it put two different species together and see what happens.
Unless you want to possibly see one eaten. They have tried communal set ups, with some getting eaten. And others we see posts where they truly did try to breed a certain species, and the male was killed.
Is life so unimportant to you that you have to get your kicks from seeing possible blood and gore?
That is like going to the rooster fights, or dog fights. It is inhumane and unbecoming of a normal human being.
Please think about what you do, why you do it, and how it helps you, and those around you. OR hurts you and those around you.

JMHO

Dear JMHO,

I also believe in personal responsibility. I believe that IF, (for at least the third time since I've started this thread I stress the word IF!) any of the possible offspring are sold, or given away or whatever that they should go to responsible homes. There are some things that begginers and irresponsible people just shouldn't keep. With regard to the possible offspring of these spiders that I must stress may or MAY NOT even come about, I am prepared and researched to care for them. I wouldn't have tried what I did if I wasn't aware of, and capable of handling the responsibility, thank you very much. I suppose hoping for a little credit is too much to ask?

If I had wanted to see "blood and gore", I wouldn't have stood there watching intently, and ready to separate them at the first sign of something going wrong. I would have tried something stupid like keeping them communal instead. Their lives are far more important to me than to watch them battle to the death.

My interest was and still is purely scientific and inspired by a love and appreciation for these animals that transcends all of the "pedigree" bulls**t that until this point, I thought only existed in the AKC! It's people like you who make me loose complete faith in why we are in this. It seems to me that someone with a genuine appreciation and interest wouldn't care about bloodline, and would just enjoy the animal for what it is. That someone who truly appreciates these spiders would be thrilled at the prospect of a new species, rather than complain about how unecessary ANOTHER species is. Apparantly I was wrong. Perhaps you should reconsider why YOU are in the hobby... Is it for appreciation of all kinds of tarantulas, or is it to ensure the best price for your "PURE" stock?

Thanks for branding me the antichrist JMHO, you've done well! :clap:

To those who appreciate the possibility of a new species, feel free to PM me for progress updates.

P.S.
I do aknowledge that many good points have been brought up by various subscribers to this topic, and I thank you for your contributions. My problem is not with you, It is with T Chick and her unnecessarily vicious attacks.

 

[Talkenlate04]

Perhaps you should reconsider why YOU are in the hobby... Is it for appreciation of all kinds of tarantulas, or is it to ensure the best price for your "PURE" stock?

Well having read that maybe you should ask yourself the same thing.

It seems to me that someone with a genuine appreciation and interest wouldn't care about bloodline, and would just enjoy the animal for what it is.

That does not sounds anywhere near rational.

I suppose hoping for a little credit is too much to ask?

Credit for what?

There are some things that begginers and irresponsible people just shouldn't keep.

This has nothing to do with cross breeding. Well actually it does. People like you should not do it till they read into the reasons why not to. Only a beginner would do something without basic research.

 

[Python]

I've read this and many threads just like it and I always get a kick out of it. I don't know who thinks what or if any of the reasons given by either side are really legitimate reasons.
As far as genetic purity goes, I don't think there are many (if any) members of this board who actually know the genetic makeup of any of their T's, so if they had a crossbred T that looked like a B. smithi for example, how many people would know that it's not a B. smithi? If it doesn't resemble any known T, then the people here are obviously smart enough to know that something is going on. Besides, if hybrids cannot breed, where is the genetic fouling coming into play? Wouldn't that particular mix die with the first sac? Therefore, I don't really buy the genetic purity argument.
The "I did it for science" argument I think is funny since it's mostly newbies who have been in the hobby for maybe a year who use it. There are indeed members on here that actually do scientific experiment, but most of the people who claim this argument are looking to justify something that they have done, so another argument goes into the invalid bin.
As far as crossbreeding goes, I'm sure there is a market for it and I'm sure people want to see some new things, I am happy with what is out there personally. I don't see a reason to monkey around with genetics and start crossbreeding every weird combination I can think of. I also don't see a viable reason not to. I hear alot of the folks complaining about purity and saving the species but no one seems to know how these spiders are going to take over the hobby if none of them can produce offspring. If they do they haven't mentioned it that I've seen.
I know that there is alot of heated debate over several topics on here and this is just one of them. None of the people participating in these discussions will ever change their point of view so there is no need in rehashing it over and over again trying to come up with a new way to say the same thing. I can see both sides of the debate and I agree and disagree with parts of both. I don't believe that crossbreeding will cause any extinction yet on the other hand, I don't really see a need for it either. I don't believe that crossbreeding will ever come up with anything that is so spectacular that it will be worthwhile to pursue it.
My only argument is, if you aren't really going to come up with anything just so different and exciting that everyone is going to want one, why do it? I can't seem to come up with a good reason for crossbreeding.
I'm not for or against anyone on here, I just think that this argument is being fought for the umpteenth time and the reasons given basically boil down to individual emotion. I don't think anyone here can say with certainty what the outcome would be one way or the other. It hasn't happened so the outcome isn't clear. In short, I think the biggest reason not to do it is to avoid having a million more threads like this one come up. So please don't do it

 

[T-chick]

ZoSoLp510,
Apparently you don't know the term Just My Humble Opinion.. or JMHO..

It's people like you who make me loose complete faith in why we are in this. It seems to me that someone with a genuine appreciation and interest wouldn't care about bloodline, and would just enjoy the animal for what it is.

You say this, but you contradict yourself.
I am an amature keeper, I wouldn't even try to breed a tarantula, even though I have been keeping them for a few years now. I am however a very mature adult, I am not branding you the "antichrist" you do that to yourself by your actions.
I only posted a second time, when after 4 pages of other people telling you that what you did was wrong and irresponsible, you still didn't seem to get the drift of what people are trying to tell you.

People cannot (people in general not just you) say "well they breed dogs together, and horses.. and hybridization happens in the wild". That is comparing apples to an orangutan.
People are in the hobby of keeping T's for various reasons. And try to help each other out and to answer questions of people who don't know OR are new to the hobby. They also try to learn about the species of T that interest them, and keep them in the best possible way.
Even hovering as you say you were just in case the female tried to do something to the male, are you truly faster than a T? So many people have lost a male or female of the same species that losing one of another species while "seeing what they woud do" is just not right.
You cannot, by any sane means ensure that the resulting offspring will be given OR sold to "responsible" homes. Unless you have a free return policy, or some how are able to track all the hundreds of possible offspring, then making that statement is sheer rubish. You can't know one can truly keep in contact of every person who buys or takes the offspring.

If you truly want to be responsible, find a mm male rosea for your female, send out our MM curly hair and reap the benefits of getting half the slings.
Try to conserve rarer species, educate people about not killing insects out of hand and about Tarantula's in general.
Actions speak louder than any words. People ask me what I do with my T's, I keep them to enjoy them and I do some educational things at day cares and pre-schools. I let them see molts, and see a T in its habitat I create for it. I take out my gentler T's and let them see it up close.
I had an aging MM rosea, and I had a 3 yr old little girl lightly stroking his leg last time I did something during "bug week" at a preschool.
Being responsible is not doing something like trying to crossbreed two different genus of T's. Caring for them in the best way possible, conservation and education are the way to be responsible.

T-chick

 

[Python]

So many people have lost a male or female of the same species that losing one of another species while "seeing what they woud do" is just not right.

T-chick

This is probably the best argument I have heard so far about this. I agree with this 100%. On the same note, I notice that alot of people advocate the killing of the resultant offspring in a hybrid situation. I don't understand that exactly. We are all in it for the love of the animals and yet there are a group of of that only love the ones that are purebred. I love them all and I don't care who the parents were. I also don't believe in killing just because it's not something I want. Regardless of whether you agree with the crossing of species or not, the offspring had no choice. They deserve to live just like all the others. Killing for the sake of genetic purity is wrong no matter what (does this sound familiar to anyone?) and I don't agree with it regardless of the rationale behind it. I think that most of the people on this board can tell most of the T's apart so I think you would be able to tell when someone is trying to unload a hybrid on you.
For the record, I am just playing devil's advocate. I really don't care one way or the other since I don't believe that hybrids that can't breed will take over the hobby nor do I believe we need anymore. I'm just kinda ridin the fence here.

 

[ShadowBlade]

Okay, I'm taking back what I said. I will post once more.

I notice that alot of people advocate the killing of the resultant offspring in a hybrid situation. I don't understand that exactly.

Let me help you understand this. The people that did create the hybrid offspring, may have damned more specimens of the original species to problems, then killing the offspring in the first place. Of course it would be better to keep them all, because the only problem they could cause would be through distribution. But that is as illogical as providing an explanation for why you bred them in the first place.

We are all in it for the love of the animals and yet there are a group of of that only love the ones that are purebred. I love them all and I don't care who the parents were. I also don't believe in killing just because it's not something I want. Regardless of whether you agree with the crossing of species or not, the offspring had no choice.

No, but if the owner has the guts to put the parents together, HE did have a choice. And he better follow through and do what is necessary to take responsibility for his actions. Its not the love of the 'pure breds'. Its the dislike of what the 'hybrids' will do to the rest of the hobby.

They deserve to live just like all the others. Killing for the sake of genetic purity is wrong no matter what (does this sound familiar to anyone?) and I don't agree with it regardless of the rationale behind it.

Now this sounds like we're getting into an abortion debate. But this is different, these are invertebrates. Killing for genetic purity may be wrong, but its worse to cause it! Just because I say they should be killed, I have never killed a batch of offspring, because I have never crossbred! Until I come up with substantial evidence for research into something I want to test, I will not do it. Not many of us here have what it takes to truly benefit from such actions.

I think that most of the people on this board can tell most of the T's apart so I think you would be able to tell when someone is trying to unload a hybrid on you.

I'm sorry but this is absolute bull. Even the most experienced taxonomists have the most difficult time destinguishing species. Every thing down to the angles of specific organs. Just because you can tell the difference between B. smithi and B. albopilosum, what about Aphonopelma sp.'New River Rust' and Aphonopelma paysoni?? Without even leaving the new worlds, we can talk about Acanthoscurria, and Avicularia. Heck, that's just the A's. And with spiderlings, many, if not most, are impossible to distinguish species between 1-3rd instars, when most would be sold. Then there's so called 'color-forms', lets not even start that. Hybrids would only throw a wrench into any destinguishing features taxonomists are trying to find to help us determine the species we have. Lets just screw their job up for 'em. Your welcome Volker, I just bred some Haplopelma's together, what do I have?

For the record, I am just playing devil's advocate. I really don't care one way or the other since I don't believe that hybrids that can't breed will take over the hobby nor do I believe we need anymore. I'm just kinda ridin the fence here.

I don't mean to beat on you. I just used your post to reference my points.

None of this even takes into account the difficulty of determining true species, and how hard it is to truly cross-breed with viable offspring. Let alone, how much of what we have are really true 'pure-bloods' if there is indeed any. But what has been done in the wild and past, does not justify our actions now.

Alot can be learned biologically from arachnids because of how little they have been affected by humans. Look at how well the genus Pterinochilus is working out. Because Africa hasn't really had a whole lot of human activity screwing up the phylogenetic relations in the region.

Oh well. I doubt much will have been accomplished by this thread. And I don't want to contribute to its continuation. Most don't even know what they're talking about, and trying to convey their beliefs on others is superfluous. I say this thread should be locked, and a sticky put up listing some crossbreeding threads for people to read, to prevent more of these for awhile.

-Sean

 

[Python]

ShadowBlade, I have no problem with what you are saying and I understand, I really do. I was just playing devils advocate like I say. I also understand the other sides point of view also. Of course like you so rightly pointed out, none of this will matter to anyone reading this and it should be locked. I think you are also right that a sticky could be made with some representative posts just to give the whole story and maybe put an end to this debate. I do enjoy a good debate and you made some excelent points. Thank you sir

 

[ZoSoLp510]

Well having read that maybe you should ask yourself the same thing.



That does not sounds anywhere near rational.


Credit for what?


This has nothing to do with cross breeding. Well actually it does. People like you should not do it till they read into the reasons why not to. Only a beginner would do something without basic research.

Look, I've made my reasons for doing this clear. You guys are entitled to your opinion. I'm just rather p.o.'d about the attacks on my responsibility and intentions (which I have repeated many times), from people who don't know a damn thing about me. Perhaps that's my fault so to clarify I just want to say that yes, I'm new to breeding but I've been keeping tarantulas and scorpions several years now. What T Chick mentioned about using the spiders for educational purposes is probably somehting people should know about me too. I bring my specimens up to the Staten Island Greenbelt Nature Center for educational programming whenever I'm available. In the event I'm not, I send them with my mother who actually works there. I don't keep these animals for the shock value and I'm not in this for money. I've always been one to tinker with things, and so naturally I thought, "why not see?" Maybe I didn't do much research on the subject before trying... that's totally my fault, but I did do plenty on breeding and the like. And, on the topic of responsibility, did I not make mention several times of getting potential babies to educational institutions such Zoo's and the like? I'm not looking to flood the market with them, though I realize it's probably inevitable that a few will make it there. Again, I'm not doing this to make money... I have a decent job and don't need to.

Lastly, I'm sorry about my attack on the credibility of others. All I can say is I was in an aggravated mood last night and probbaly shouldn't have posted while there, although the whole "pureblood" argument does make me think of the AKC and getting the best price.

I hope maybe I've cleared some stuff up, and I'm sorry if I've angered anyone. It wasn't my intention. I think I'm done with this thread.

 

[cacoseraph]

Look, I've made my reasons for doing this clear. You guys are entitled to your opinion. I'm just rather p.o.'d about the attacks on my responsibility and intentions (which I have repeated many times), from people who don't know a damn thing about me. Perhaps that's my fault so to clarify I just want to say that yes, I'm new to breeding but I've been keeping tarantulas and scorpions several years now. What T Chick mentioned about using the spiders for educational purposes is probably somehting people should know about me too. I bring my specimens up to the Staten Island Greenbelt Nature Center for educational programming whenever I'm available. In the event I'm not, I send them with my mother who actually works there. I don't keep these animals for the shock value and I'm not in this for money. I've always been one to tinker with things, and so naturally I thought, "why not see?" Maybe I didn't do much research on the subject before trying... that's totally my fault, but I did do plenty on breeding and the like. And, on the topic of responsibility, did I not make mention several times of getting potential babies to educational institutions such Zoo's and the like? I'm not looking to flood the market with them, though I realize it's probably inevitable that a few will make it there. Again, I'm not doing this to make money... I have a decent job and don't need to.

Lastly, I'm sorry about my attack on the credibility of others. All I can say is I was in an aggravated mood last night and probbaly shouldn't have posted while there, although the whole "pureblood" argument does make me think of the AKC and getting the best price.

I hope maybe I've cleared some stuff up, and I'm sorry if I've angered anyone. It wasn't my intention. I think I'm done with this thread.

lol. you need to start doing what i try to do... ignoring obviously illogical, emotional posts. it is SO much easier that way.



also, do you happen to know if your female could have already been gravid?

 

[ZoSoLp510]

lol. you need to start doing what i try to do... ignoring obviously illogical, emotional posts. it is SO much easier that way.



also, do you happen to know if your female could have already been gravid?

HAha... yeah i guess i tend to get a bit wrapped up in things lol.

She made an infertile sac shortly after I got her 4 years ago and hadn't been with anyone until i tried her with my curlyhair.

 

[cacoseraph]

HAha... yeah i guess i tend to get a bit wrapped up in things lol.

She made an infertile sac shortly after I got her 4 years ago and hadn't been with anyone until i tried her with my curlyhair.

tight. that is what i wanted to here. just to maximally cover bases... did she molt in between the infertile sac and the mating?