Arana Polita - Chicken Spider Diary

[Anastasia]

If you see from the following photos, P.antinous have red rumps when they are spiderlings, while the chicken spider remains a dull greyish/brown with no red rumps. I have various spiderlings of different sizes and none have red hairs. Only subadults and adults have the red. I even have a large juvenile that is a brown shade with no red.

Pamphobeteus antinous spiderling

Chicken Spider spiderlings

I also have few spiderlings that been sold to me as Pamphobeteus antinous
and I found out they brightly redrumped after molt and dull out to greyish/brown towards upcoming molt, looks like spit copy of the second picture spiderlings

Anastasia

 

[angelarachnid]

Exactly. But you do need an export permit to legally export out of Peru.

So why post a link to cites? most people know that Peru has opened again and has been for some time, hence all the Avicularia sp Peru Purple etc hitting the pet trade

Just because one person has not found them beyond a certain area does not mean they do not exist in other locales. If you search the field trip topics here on this forum and others, some have found communal Pamphobeteus sp. beyond Madre de Dios.

Sadly all pics are gone, text still remains though.
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=147982

So the person who was the first to bring the CS to peoples attention, who has done more research on the CS than anyone else, who has scoured the area trying to find them, is wrong ?

The link you posted Pato says post 11"Yes the ''chicken spider'', or could it be just P. antinous? Don't know,

Just because they live socially dont make them the CS, I have a location in Bolivia for a social Pamphobeteus, and I certainly would not call them the CS.

Using your criteria not itching as bad as P. antinous and living socially, most Poecilotheria can be called chicken spiders

That being said, I cannot be 100% certain what my collector did and did not do, or where he went. He assured me he collected them from the Iquitos/Ixtapa river basin.

I cannot answer this one. I do not know the credentials of my collector. All I know is that he was well versed in tarantula care and kept, raised, and bred many of the species he collected.

And I agree 100%.

Once again, already covered above. I cannot be certain, I can only go by his word.

You agree 100% that exporters/importers do not give accurate information, you say you cannot be certain what he did and did not do, you dont know the credentials of the collector, but you are willing to go by his word that they came from the place you asked him to go to? and the spiders he sent you are definately the CS? Go to any country in the world where there are tarantulas and ask any taxi driver if he knows where to find them and every one will say YES, drive you around for a while and take your money
I also find it strange that (since you have now informed an exporter and paid over the odds for 25 specimens) the name "Chicken spider" has not appeared on any Peruvian Exporters lists, because as soon as you tell an exporter he has something good or interesting the price goes up and they then sell whatever they have as this "new" thing, a classic example is Hysterocrates from Africa, exporters have small med and large H. gigas, but only ex large H. hercules at a much higher price.

Yes, he was quite pleasent to work with.

I have dealt with a few exporters in my time and they are your best friends ever as they are trying to sell you something/ get money from you,

No pictures yet. I had a macro photo shoot with a friend, but he is withholding the pics. I keep asking for them and he keeps putting them off. Those will be posted when they are finally sent to me. As for molts, I am keeping them for now and will send them off to anyone who may be able to acquire information from them.

Well I have access to the Pampho types in the BMN so once you get a moult from the adult send it over to the BMN and I will compare it against the specimen there

I consider them the chicken spider due to their incredible communal behavior.

Sorry should have asked this earlier, was there any interaction when you reintroduced them back together into their groups after shipping?

Yes we cannot tell for sure what species this is, nor is the fabled chicken spider properly identified either. For sake of argument and lack of scientific evidence surrounding this species I will continue calling this Pamphobeteus the chicken spider. Better yet I will stop referring to them as sp. chicken spider, and continue calling them the Spanish name arana pollito.

you contradict yourself there based on your words
'Yes we cannot tell for sure what species this is, nor is the fabled chicken spider properly identified either. For sake of argument and lack of scientific evidence surrounding this species "
you could only really call them Pamphobeteus sp

Sorry I just dont buy it (and neither do a couple of other people who have emailed me) based on my experiances with exporters, that you ask an exporter for something from a particular area, that he would actually send a collector to go to that place, and collect only 25 specimens just for you and then send only 25 to you. If he did send a collector out then that collector would have collected a hell of a lot more than 25, collectors get paid cents for the specimens they bring back to the exporter, so would bring back as many as he can, and as these were something interesting they would be offered to the other importers he deals with, so other people would have them on their price lists by now. New species are being discovered nearly every month, I just found another new species of Sericopelma yesterday, unless someone goes to the known area of the CS and collects some that is the only way it can be called the CS, anything else until the taxonomy is done is just Pamphobeteus sp

Sorry not convinced they are the CS, OH what name were they exported to you under? because that is more likely what they are.

Ray

 

[AbraxasComplex]

So why post a link to cites? most people know that Peru has opened again and has been for some time, hence all the Avicularia sp Peru Purple etc hitting the pet trade

Because if you actually look at the link they display the new permit you need. Many in the past questioned the legality of a Peru order.

So the person who was the first to bring the CS to peoples attention, who has done more research on the CS than anyone else, who has scoured the area trying to find them, is wrong ?

I am not discrediting the work done in the past, but the Peruvian jungles are dense and vast. There is no way one man can cover that much space. A great example of this is with a species of fish. The galaxy rasbora (Celestichthys margaritatus) when first discovered was believed to be only found in specific ponds. These were over fished for the pet trade and the media used it as an example for the horrors of the pet industry. Several months later more scientific surveys were done through out Myanmar (Burma) and it was discovered the species was more wide spread than previously thought. So wide spread that an extremely rare fish became incredibly common once researchers knew where and what to look for.

Using your criteria not itching as bad as P. antinous and living socially, most Poecilotheria can be called chicken spiders

A large terrestrial communal Pamphobeteus sp. has nothing in common with a Poecilotheria.

You agree 100% that exporters/importers do not give accurate information, you say you cannot be certain what he did and did not do, you dont know the credentials of the collector, but you are willing to go by his word that they came from the place you asked him to go to? and the spiders he sent you are definately the CS? Go to any country in the world where there are tarantulas and ask any taxi driver if he knows where to find them and every one will say YES, drive you around for a while and take your money
I also find it strange that (since you have now informed an exporter and paid over the odds for 25 specimens) the name "Chicken spider" has not appeared on any Peruvian Exporters lists, because as soon as you tell an exporter he has something good or interesting the price goes up and they then sell whatever they have as this "new" thing, a classic example is Hysterocrates from Africa, exporters have small med and large H. gigas, but only ex large H. hercules at a much higher price.

Sorry I just dont buy it (and neither do a couple of other people who have emailed me) based on my experiances with exporters, that you ask an exporter for something from a particular area, that he would actually send a collector to go to that place, and collect only 25 specimens just for you and then send only 25 to you. If he did send a collector out then that collector would have collected a hell of a lot more than 25, collectors get paid cents for the specimens they bring back to the exporter, so would bring back as many as he can, and as these were something interesting they would be offered to the other importers he deals with, so other people would have them on their price lists by now. New species are being discovered nearly every month, I just found another new species of Sericopelma yesterday, unless someone goes to the known area of the CS and collects some that is the only way it can be called the CS, anything else until the taxonomy is done is just Pamphobeteus sp

The collector and the supplier was the same. If you read a previous post I had to pay for all his expenses. I also had to pay more than just cents per tarantula. I had done a previous large order through him before. They were labeled as P.antinous when exported. This is due to the fact that the CS has no scientific name and the permit did have to use an actual scientific name. The closest known specie was used for that purpose.

Well I have access to the Pampho types in the BMN so once you get a moult from the adult send it over to the BMN and I will compare it against the specimen there

I shall. I have about 7 molts now, but no adult molts.

Sorry should have asked this earlier, was there any interaction when you reintroduced them back together into their groups after shipping?

Yes, the spiderlings actually congregated around and under the adult female. With the temporary enclosures I made many hiding places and I also noticed the subadult and juvenile group moved as one towards one hiding place at first. They did not spread out and use multiple hides.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

exporter

Also a note...I believe there is only one exporter that has the actual legal permits at the moment for export of tarantulas. I could be wrong but I was pretty sure of that. Has nothing to do with the validity of these as a species just a note I thought you might want to know. He also does not speak english....

 

[AbraxasComplex]

Also a note...I believe there is only one exporter that has the actual legal permits at the moment for export of tarantulas. I could be wrong but I was pretty sure of that. Has nothing to do with the validity of these as a species just a note I thought you might want to know. He also does not speak english....

Yep, I had to use friends who spoke Spanish, or use online translators for emails. My Spanish skills have increased slightly because of it.

 

[AbraxasComplex]

So here is the semi-finished product. I am not satisfied with it to be honest. I set it up and had several other species of plants to use that looked great together in natural light. Somehow when in the tank the colours clashed with either the background or one of the other plants I planned to use. I took them out and overpopulated the tank with creeping fig instead. Over the next few months I hope to trim down certain parts of the fig and allow the fig to grow across the background.

Over time the fresh dried leaves will darken to a dark brown or black and decrease the bright feel of the tank as well.

I'm hoping I'll grow to like the simplistic feel of the tank as everything matures. Perhaps I'll find the perfect plant though.

The chicken spiders are not in it yet, but I have placed multiple inverts (including small snails and worms) inside to test the tank. After a couple weeks I will add the group of 4 chicken spiders that I have if the other species are doing well.

 

[robd]

Cool stuff.

 

[AbraxasComplex]

Cool stuff.

Thanks. Any constructive criticism though? I want to improve upon it.

 

[robd]

Not sure if I can supply any kind that'd do something for you.

I don't have as much tenure in this hobby as some other people do, but man, I've never seen anybody even try something like what you're doing. And I don't even mean the whole business with the CS at all. It's bigger than that in my opinion. A near-self sustaining ecosystem that T's just happen to live in. That's awesome.

It looks great. I can't wait to see it with your CS's in there. I do have one idea though. I don't know what your feeding regimen for them is right now, but say it was to give them crickets once a week. Down the road when they're in the tank and they're settled into their new habitat, maybe skip one or two feedings and then when the time comes around again to feed them, do a night-time video of it. It'd be cool to see if they all just come out to feed cause they're real hungry.

 

[AbraxasComplex]

The project has stalled.

Thank god I introduced feeder bugs and detritivores to the tank first. One of the plants I had a pesticide/systemic on/in it and the result was a localized die off of inverts in a corner of the tank after one day. The other 3/4 of the tank was unscathed. Even after a second extensive washing the plant still caused issues (I put it in a bin with crickets and the crickets were dead after a couple hours). It has been disposed of.

So I have removed all the previously grown plants, all the soil, and have washed the gravel from the drainage layer and the background extensively. I also reintroduced crickets and other bugs into the empty tank to ensure no other issues. So far the feeder bugs have been in there for about 5 days with no problems. Yesterday I re added the gravel to test it, no negative result yet. Before I add soil I will add the safe plants and wood into the tank to test their safety as well.

I want to make sure the tank is safe for these beautiful spiders. In a week or so I will complete the tank and have photos of the new sett up.

 

[syndicate]

The tank looks very nice but wouldn't they benefit if you added more substrate so they could burrow?

 

[AbraxasComplex]

The tank looks very nice but wouldn't they benefit if you added more substrate so they could burrow?

They are not a burrowing species. Instead they utilize preexisting rodent burrows in the wild. I have mimicked this by making a hollow cavity in the "stone steps" of the background. Each cavity has two entrances that are accessible by a rodent like burrow entrance.

 

[BrynWilliams]

just read the whole thread as i've been a latecommer to this part and just wanna say, your tank looks awesome (sucks about the pesticides, glad you tested them) and best of luck getting them formally identified. If it turns out to the the actual CS then it'll be great news for the hobby

 

[Teal]

Personally, I don't care what species they are... I am just excited that they are communal! Nothing looks cooler than a huge group of Ts living together, and yall know it!

I think people are getting too caught up in the politics.

Abraxas - I do think you shouldn't call them "chicken spiders" until you are 150% sure that IS what they are, just for the sake of proper identification procedure. Yes, I understand you believe them to be CSs... but just because you believe in it, doesn't make it so

In the end... you have a lovely group of communal Ts, and I hope that from your group will stem enough Ts to populate the hobby with another communal species.

 

[OrdoMallus]

I gotta say man.... you're definately my hero lol! I definately wanna come over somtime when you have your tank up and running just to see them. I'm actually really amazed at how close they look to the P. Antinous. P. Antinous that I got from you have been awesome thus far. One had molted and I measured her at over 8" now, she's wicked but she doesnt come out a whole lot, made an extensive burrow. But the other large female, she's about 7.5" has been great! she's constantly out all the time, eats like a pig, and she's been pretty great for handling. Insanely strong hooks. I had her out quite a bit at the PetExpo, crazy Joe handled her too and took some pictures. It just surprises me that you've had so much trouble with your P. Antinous being that aggressive, maybe I got lucky because the one I've got has been insanely docile, no kicking hairs, no threats, no stridulating at all. Infact she's been stubborn and difficult to make move when she isnt interested lol.

Btw once you get a few bred and a sack going, let me know I'm definately gonna wanna get some lol. And I'm not huge on african species but I'm gonna have to definately hit you up for some M. Balfouri later on when you get them bred as well lol!!

Btw I'll probably be eventually shooting to a PM before too too long, I wana get back into some Centipedes, or if you still have some of those other T's left, before or after May 1st. I was pretty heartbroken when my S. Spinosima died, and I couldnt figure out why at all. I'm pretty sure i had my care 100% right I just dunno.

PS. Heather loves that C. Ritae, I might have to get that one from you later on if you still have it later (lol kinda broke right now after buying 3 Leechie's in the last month, $650 a pop is kinda hard to swallow at once lol, not to mention other Gargoyles)

Thanks man, you have been an insanely great help to me and huge inspiration to me doing this hobby. Everytime I see your enclosures and what you keep I'm definately a bit jealous. Again I 100% cant thank you enough, you've been a great help and everything that people in this hobby should aspire to be like. I dont really understand why exactly so many people are so skeptical of what you're trying to do. I have no doubt you'll do great things for this hobby even if you arent recognized for it.

---> Layne

 

[AbraxasComplex]

Here is the tank redone. I have some pesticide free moss, Cissus amazonica, and some more dwarf broms coming in soon. Thankfully the new feeder and detritivore bugs added have done well over a week now so I have added the tarantulas and they seem to like it so far.

 

[forrestpengra]

Beautiful Mack, just beautiful... I'm really looking forward to your talk at ArachnoConNorth

 

[Mack&Cass]

Beautiful Mack, just beautiful... I'm really looking forward to your talk at ArachnoConNorth

Me too!! And I agree, the setup looks fantastic.

Cass

 

[AbraxasComplex]

Thanks. Hope I don't bore you guys. Haha.

 

[pato_chacoana]

The tank looks very nice but wouldn't they benefit if you added more substrate so they could burrow?

I agree...they are burrowing species, they live under the ground don't they? at least 25cm under.