Arana Polita - Chicken Spider Diary

[KenTheBugGuy]

truth

Truthfully once that macro shoot comes out then it should be easy to prove.

 

[AbraxasComplex]

Haha... really?!?!? Photoshopped?!?! :wall:

First off whatever the conditions were in Peru when those photos were taken I do not know and cannot tell you. Did they move the stick? Who knows. Did the camera lens fog up? Can't tell you. Did the flash distort the depth of the photo? Your guess is as good as mine.

Either way I can take a video tonight with my terrible camera. Better yet I will do a video of both groups. They are still in their temporary homes, but I don't mind showing off their rubbermaid bins.


As for me using this topic as a rouse... well guess what, I have yet to sell one of these tarantulas. As stated before I do not plan to sell them. I plan to breed them if I can. That's quite the rouse to sell spiderlings a year or two from now.

And why would I go through the trouble to purchase, carve, and create a 6 foot long vivarium, showing step by step in the thread, if I was planning to house one solitary tarantula?

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

Haha... really?!?!? Photoshopped?!?! :wall:

First off whatever the conditions were in Peru when those photos were taken I do not know and cannot tell you. Did they move the stick? Who knows. Did the camera lens fog up? Can't tell you. Did the flash distort the depth of the photo? Your guess is as good as mine.

Either way I can take a video tonight with my terrible camera. Better yet I will do a video of both groups. They are still in their temporary homes, but I don't mind showing off their rubbermaid bins.


As for me using this topic as a rouse... well guess what, I have yet to sell one of these tarantulas. As stated before I do not plan to sell them. I plan to breed them if I can. That's quite the rouse to sell spiderlings a year or two from now.

And why would I go through the trouble to purchase, carve, and create a 6 foot long vivarium, showing step by step in the thread, if I was planning to house one solitary tarantula?

Well said I would be interested in seeing the video not cause of doubt. How many adults/larger ones do you have housed together? I am also experimenting with Antonious to see if you can get a similiar set up.

 

[BCscorp]

Well said I would be interested in seeing the video not cause of doubt. How many adults/larger ones do you have housed together? I am also experimenting with Antonious to see if you can get a similiar set up.

It'll be great to see you guys compare experiences with these communal Ts in the future.
Best of luck to both of you!

 

[AbraxasComplex]

Well said I would be interested in seeing the video not cause of doubt. How many adults/larger ones do you have housed together?

In the adult/subadult group, there is 1 full grown adult, one that is a subadult, and two large juveniles. They are prone to piling on one another in a tiny alcove.

As for the spiderling group, there is 1 adult, 1 near sub adult/juvenile, and 17 slings. (2 of the 19 slings have been separated, 1 was missing 2 legs and recently regenerated them in a molt, and the other was removed to keep it company. These two will be reintroduced several molts later one at a time to see if the group re accepts them).

 

[Moltar]

Ok kids, I submit that the photographs have not been altered (beyond perhaps resizing and maybe some color correction) nor has the scene been altered between photographs and offer the following as proof. If you look at the Y shaped twig outlined below in yellow, you will see it is in the same place and configuration in all the other "on-site" pictures. I think the vegetation in question came into frame when the photographer crouched and took some pictures from a lower, narrower angle.

 

[jbm150]

Not only that but looking over the pics yet again, the shadows are telling as well. You can see how the legs of one spider cast a shadow over the bodies of the others under them. I think they didn't look right to me because one, my perceptions had been skewed by accusations and two, they're visually complex pictures which would be prone to, uh, mental distortion, especially in relation to point one.

Additionally, I don't necessarily feel that this is a scam, especially after reading over the entire thread. But I did feel that way when it started. Seemed somewhat contrived. And to be honest, I don't think it would be that difficult to fabricate what you're doing. Even the photos wouldn't be that hard to photoshop. I have one friend that could create something like that in 20 minutes tops. Seriously, its scary what he can do. But keep doing what you're doing, keep us updated with more pics and videos cuz its so exciting and keep proving naysayers and overly suspicious people (like me) wrong.

 

[angelarachnid]

I have been asked to comment on this thread and reluctantly agreed

Recently Peru has been open to legal export (http://www.cites.org/eng/notif/2009/E053.pdf) and the trade has seen an increase in Peruvian tarantulas.

You dont need CITIES permits for non CITIES species, the Genus Pamphobeteus is not covered by CITIES

I myself made a previous order from a collector in Iquitos. I began to chat with him about a second order and asked if he ever found tarantulas in the Ixtapa basin, and other areas he legally collects from that were found communally. I was aware that the chicken spider had been sighted all the way up to the Iquitos area. He responded yes, but he always assumed they were Pamphobeteus antinous. Ecstatic that these tarantulas were found in unprotected areas and legal to collect with the proper permit I began to plan an order.

According to Martin Nicholas post 16, he has not found it " outside the highly protected and policed National Reserve and National Park."

http://www.thebts.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=6243&page=2

How does he know what species he has there? Is he also a taxonomist, or is he just repeating the name they put on the paperwork for export/import?

Needless to say well over a year passed before the proper permits were acquired and the collecting trip was planned (several months of heavy rains and flooding hindered his efforts as well as government reorganizations of certain departments).

According to the date, 22nd December 2009, on the permit link you posted (if that is your permit) a year later would not have happened yet

He found several burrows in the area (with many burrows containing more than 20 tarantulas), but focused on two that were found 18 feet apart. He collected 25 (as the permit indicated). 21 from one burrow (1 adult female, 1 large juvenile, and 19 slings of various sizes), and 4 from another (1 adult, 1 sub adult, and 2 juveniles of different ages). There were more in the burrow containing the large juveniles and adults, but he left them.

According to the people on this thread, you cannot say 100% that the information you get from collectors/exporters is accurate and I agree with them,

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=176146

So how do you know exactly where your spiders come from? most exporters very rarely tell where they collect from in case someone else goes there are robs them of their "stock"

Finally the shipment was sent, cleared by Canadian customs and I received them..

Nice exporter you have to do such a small order,

I then also recalled that much further south in the Madre de Dios Region where the Chicken Spider is also found

See Martins comments above, if they are restricted to the reserve area they you cannot know 100% that these are the so called "chicken spider"

Have you sent specimens to the BMN to be compared against the specimen deposited there? If you want to send me some taxonomical pics i can compare them with the pics and notes of the BM Pamphobeteus types I have (including the CS deposited in there)

Have you seen a male? There is a pic of the male CS on the link to the BTS page above, does the male have a metallic sheen?

From what I have read on this thread, you have specimens of an unidentified Pamphobeteus sp, with only a dealers word as to where it came from, and you say it is not from the area where the CS is (currently) known from, and since NO ONE actually knows (with the possible exception of P. ultramarinus and P. petersi) what Pamphobeteus are in the pet trade ( the ones in the zootaxa link are not or have not been confirmed in the pet trade) so in a position to compare against the CS, how do you know, it is the CS?

Regards

Ray

 

[cacoseraph]

heh, i hate posting after ray. no one is going to see it in the shadow of his =P





regarding using the urts as a differentiation.... there could be a pretty massive problem with that. i, too, use urts to tell something about a spider... but i use them to SEX the spider, not ID to species! for many species in many genera, males affect me much more than females. the first thing i thought of is that you are selecting out females as CS and males as some other Pampho species, due to a difference in itchiness

 

[GettingItRight]

did not

I did not say you photoshoped it the guy that took them could have. I just wrote what I saw.

 

[sharpfang]

On an Issue Like This...

It is FAIR to ask Q's about Details.....I detect some "Acusations" though.....and neither side of debate, seems to have sure-fire PROOF.

I will say, that I attempted Boldly to purchase or trade, for One solitary
Juvenile specimin from the OP {who is very friendly & professional}.

I was Not turned down, but, Not agreed either. If this was some type of SCAM - He would've quickly accepted a trade for 2 M. Balfouri, which in Canada, go for $400 each. My intention was to have him send one to a B.C. hobbyist, that he has done good Business with......For that person to keep & Raise. Then if he later needed a MM or female 50/50....It would be better to send One specimin away, I feel, as Back-up to potential cannabalization, or unexpected mis-fortune.

He is NOT selling these Tarantulas.....and reguardless of their Genetics & Origin/Locale, They are Not a "common" Pampho - PERIOD.

I own many Antinous. I feel that they slightly differ, from these Pics.....
.....To go by THAT, alone.

Let's give this guy atleast a little, credit & respect....as well as, TIME, to detail Himself Further the Sp; w/ Info & Pics. I am as Curious, as the rest of You.

Sincerely, Jason J. Brown

 

[BlackCat]

Please explain...I don't know the pixel trick to tell something like this I would love too though!

lol I wasn't being serious, the whole "it's photoshopped!!" thing is a common troll tactic though. My sarcastic way of saying "He's trolling" lol


Seriously though, I don't think it is photoshopped. I know fully well that it could be easily done and look perfectly authentic, I could do it myself, but I just don't see any reason to think those pics were shopped up tbh. I know how cameras can play with angles and depth.

 

[AbraxasComplex]

You dont need CITIES permits for non CITIES species, the Genus Pamphobeteus is not covered by CITIES

Exactly. But you do need an export permit to legally export out of Peru.

According to Martin Nicholas post 16, he has not found it " outside the highly protected and policed National Reserve and National Park."

Just because one person has not found them beyond a certain area does not mean they do not exist in other locales. If you search the field trip topics here on this forum and others, some have found communal Pamphobeteus sp. beyond Madre de Dios.

Sadly all pics are gone, text still remains though.
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=147982

That being said, I cannot be 100% certain what my collector did and did not do, or where he went. He assured me he collected them from the Iquitos/Ixtapa river basin.

How does he know what species he has there? Is he also a taxonomist, or is he just repeating the name they put on the paperwork for export/import?

I cannot answer this one. I do not know the credentials of my collector. All I know is that he was well versed in tarantula care and kept, raised, and bred many of the species he collected.

According to the date, 22nd December 2009, on the permit link you posted (if that is your permit) a year later would not have happened yet

It took well over a year to get that permit and the funds in order. So well before December of 2008 this request for the chicken spider was made. Hence the year later date of December 2009.

According to the people on this thread, you cannot say 100% that the information you get from collectors/exporters is accurate and I agree with them

And I agree 100%.

So how do you know exactly where your spiders come from? most exporters very rarely tell where they collect from in case someone else goes there are robs them of their "stock"

Once again, already covered above. I cannot be certain, I can only go by his word.

Nice exporter you have to do such a small order

Yes, he was quite pleasent to work with.

Have you sent specimens to the BMN to be compared against the specimen deposited there? If you want to send me some taxonomical pics i can compare them with the pics and notes of the BM Pamphobeteus types I have (including the CS deposited in there)

No pictures yet. I had a macro photo shoot with a friend, but he is withholding the pics. I keep asking for them and he keeps putting them off. Those will be posted when they are finally sent to me. As for molts, I am keeping them for now and will send them off to anyone who may be able to acquire information from them.

Have you seen a male? There is a pic of the male CS on the link to the BTS page above, does the male have a metallic sheen?

No males yet. The adults and subadults I have I believe are female. So far no juvies have been properly sexed.

From what I have read on this thread, you have specimens of an unidentified Pamphobeteus sp, with only a dealers word as to where it came from, and you say it is not from the area where the CS is (currently) known from, and since NO ONE actually knows (with the possible exception of P. ultramarinus and P. petersi) what Pamphobeteus are in the pet trade ( the ones in the zootaxa link are not or have not been confirmed in the pet trade) so in a position to compare against the CS, how do you know, it is the CS?

I consider them the chicken spider due to their incredible communal behavior. Yes we cannot tell for sure what species this is, nor is the fabled chicken spider properly identified either. For sake of argument and lack of scientific evidence surrounding this species I will continue calling this Pamphobeteus the chicken spider. Better yet I will stop referring to them as sp. chicken spider, and continue calling them the Spanish name arana pollito. This way we can create a distinction between the possible differences that may exist between the Madre de Dios communal tarantula, and this "northern" (by collector's word) communal tarantula.

 

[AbraxasComplex]

regarding using the urts as a differentiation.... there could be a pretty massive problem with that. i, too, use urts to tell something about a spider... but i use them to SEX the spider, not ID to species! for many species in many genera, males affect me much more than females. the first thing i thought of is that you are selecting out females as CS and males as some other Pampho species, due to a difference in itchiness

I know it is not a definitive way to tell. Just the start of revealing differences between two locales. I have adult females of both species. Both properly sexed. Just had a different reaction. All the P.antinous I had I reacted the same way. All the arana pollito I did not react with. Perhaps a proven male will cause a different reaction.

He is NOT selling these Tarantulas.....and reguardless of their Genetics & Origin/Locale, They are Not a "common" Pampho - PERIOD.

I own many Antinous. I feel that they slightly differ, from these Pics.....
.....To go by THAT, alone.

Let's give this guy atleast a little, credit & respect....as well as, TIME, to detail Himself Further the Sp; w/ Info & Pics. I am as Curious, as the rest of You.

Thank you. And believe me I am still excited to have these species. I am still curious of many things. I want to find a definitive way to tell the species apart if, which I believe they are, they are a different species.

Videos being made right after I finish this post.

 

[jayefbe]

I consider them the chicken spider due to their incredible communal behavior. Yes we cannot tell for sure what species this is, nor is the fabled chicken spider properly identified either. For sake of argument and lack of scientific evidence surrounding this species I will continue calling this Pamphobeteus the chicken spider. Better yet I will stop referring to them as sp. chicken spider, and continue calling them the Spanish name arana pollito. This way we can create a distinction between the possible differences that may exist between the Madre de Dios communal tarantula, and this "northern" (by collector's word) communal tarantula.

I've had a problem with the "chicken spider" epithet from day one. You're taking an imported unidentified spider and calling it by the name of another unidentified spider from a different region. On top of that, you're saying these are the same unidentified spiders based on extremely imprecise behavioral characteristics and itchiness of urticating hairs. There is already enough confusion and hype over the chicken spider (antinous or not? Huge price tag) that I feel like you're forcing the chicken spider name onto it for the perceived rarity and desirability of the spider. I'm not saying that it's not the mythical chicken spider. I am saying that there is simply not enough information to say that it is and forcing the name chicken spider on it (or arana pollito) is only going to make an already confusing situation even worse.

 

[AbraxasComplex]

I need a much better camera... and next time I am literally grabbing a lamp and using it for illumination. I used the flashlight, but that didn't help too much.

Group of 4:


Mother and Spiderlings:

 

[BlackCat]

Fake prop spiders! ;P jk lol

Cool to see them in vids, thx for posting!

(FTR, again, in my first post I didn't really believe it to be a photoshop, just poking fun @ the guy who did lol)

 

[robd]

The first 3 pictures in this thread are either Photoshoped or posed. The reason I would think Photoshop is because of the depth perception in the first picture as there are 2 adult tarantulas there but one looks very out of proportion. The reason I say it is definitely one or the other for sure is the person taking those photos did not take the time to use different props. See the large stick on the right with the brown stain on top half. Well if you look at the other pictures that same stick is being used but the vegetation around that stick has changed. If you examine the pictures closely you will find more of these inconsistencies.

Wow.

I suppose you think the moon landing was a hoax too, perhaps based on the multiple light sources myth. I hate to spoil your party, but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wym04J_3Ls0

 

[robd]

When I first started reading this thread, I had an inkling in my mind that this was all a big set up but I kept it to myself (gutless on my part, I know, I feel bad writing this). I felt like Abraxis is laying the groundwork to create hype for what might be a common pampho so that when he eventually sells, he can sell for a premium and make a small fortune. Imagine how many of us would love to have a chicken spider or 10. Rather than the typical scam you see in the dealer warning sections, this one is a long con.

BUT I hope that isn't the case. I want to trust that he really does have an in with an exporter in South America and has managed to get his hands on some chicken spiders. Now that he has been called out, Abraxis rightly have to defend himself. Burden of proof and all; I hope he understands the importance of the criticisms, doesn't get too defensive, and passes with flying colors


EDIT: looking back at the pics, they don't look...right. But it might be because others have expressed doubts and now I'm not seeing them correctly

Gosh. Very quick to judgment. If you're that intrigued at the idea of the Chicken Spider being in the hobby, maybe a little more direct inquiry would've done you some good, for starters reading this entire thread top to bottom. Or you could've contacted him and asked him. I did. This is what I learned.

His motive when it comes to the T hobby right now is communal projects. He's also working with Holothele incei, Heterothele villosella, and Heterothele gabonesis.

EDIT: I saw your subsequent post. For lack of a better way to say it, please excuse my tirade.

 

[robd]

I don't think that works as I was going to post a picture of my antonious co-habitating here in the next few days. I wanted to give them a week first and make sure they stay together ok but its been 2 days now and so far so good. There was a threat stance once but thats been about it so far and they seem to be getting along fine.

When you get down to the nitty-gritty on this, you'd need to have a camera that can record in HD for to show distinct differences between P antinous and the CS. Those aren't exactly cheap.

Jeez Ken, if I remember correctly, in your other post talking about T's being sold as "SP whatchamacallit", you made it clear you weren't skeptical of Abraxas. Change your mind? I guess.

I think all of this is pretty ridiculous. Off of obscure accusations from people who apparently have a penchant for jumping to conclusions. C'mon.