What arboreal is good

[YungRasputin]

Let me preface this by saying the next step should be psalms imo, BUT op needs to wait to get husbandry down with his current ows and avics. I dont think op should get a psalm until he has owned his current ts for a good period of time. Nobody else suggested he pick up a psalm at this time either.

ok

Speed is a risk to the t. The t bolts the wrong way and suddenly its outside the enclosure. The owner cant get it inside the enclosure and what do you know, its dead in the closet 3 months later because they lost it. Plus a faster t makes getting tagged a lot easier, makes escapes easier, etc.

it’s not a risk if you plan for bolts ahead of time and take the proper precautions such as moving the enclosure to a space where a bolt out of the enclosure is manageable - in my experience, a specimen that bolts out of the enclosure will typically only bolt out of the enclosure before stopping on the side as it reassess the situation

I never said anything about flawless rehousings, you're talking to the wrong person. I will say that with proper research and prep, most owners should never experience a bite, even if they do experience a mistake/an escape. And I will add this, and most may disagree: Id rather an owner get bit than a T escape and die. The T didnt ask to be kept in captivity.

I would rather a keeper allow a bolt to happen and calmly recup said specimen rather than get bit, involuntarily jerk and fling the specimen across the room or have it fall from a great to the floor or be so consumed by the pain of the bite and venom spreading that they forget about the specimen entirely - bolting out of the enclosure is significantly less of a problem than the keeper being bit and therefore comprised

Yes I know, however ows overall have stronger venom and are quicker than most nws.

OW arboreals are just about as fast as tappis - really can’t stress the speed of African arboreals enough - not to mention the potency of their venom - a lot of African venom can cause heart palpitations in addition to extreme muscle cramps, tremors, vomiting, etc in addition to the extreme pain caused by the bite itself which in cases like the OBT, from what i’ve heard, feels like someone taking a hammer to the bite site

research is good and critically important however it doesn’t take the place of hands on experience and the building of skills, muscle memory, etc - that’s why i give the recommendations i do because there are several low venom species which can give you valuable experience and crucial skills prior to making the jump to more advanced species

OW arboreals are perfectly capable and ready to teleport, jump, preemptively tag without warning i.e. threat pose, etc

 

[Pmurinushmacla]

ok



it’s not a risk if you plan for bolts ahead of time and take the proper precautions such as moving the enclosure to a space where a bolt out of the enclosure is manageable - in my experience, a specimen that bolts out of the enclosure will typically only bolt out of the enclosure before stopping on the side as it reassess the situation



I would rather a keeper allow a bolt to happen and calmly recup said specimen rather than get bit, involuntarily jerk and fling the specimen across the room or have it fall from a great to the floor or be so consumed by the pain of the bite and venom spreading that they forget about the specimen entirely - bolting out of the enclosure is significantly less of a problem than the keeper being bit and therefore comprised



OW arboreals are just about as fast as tappis - really can’t stress the speed of African arboreals enough - not to mention the potency of their venom - a lot of African venom can cause heart palpitations in addition to extreme muscle cramps, tremors, vomiting, etc in addition to the extreme pain caused by the bite itself which in cases like the OBT, from what i’ve heard, feels like someone taking a hammer to the bite site

research is good and critically important however it doesn’t take the place of hands on experience and the building of skills, muscle memory, etc - that’s why i give the recommendations i do because there are several low venom species which can give you valuable experience and crucial skills prior to making the jump to more advanced species

OW arboreals are perfectly capable and ready to teleport, jump, preemptively tag without warning i.e. threat pose, etc

Ok

Obviously.

Apples to oranges, each has its positives and drawbacks. Plus everyone has a different pain tolerance, the same could happen with a tappie if the keeper is easily spooked/has a low pain tolerance. Plus its more likely to happen with a faster species.

Yes i know all of that, I have kept both (nw arboreals i mean, not tappies). I think we are getting wildly off track, and taking this thread over. Everything you said considered, I would still much rather recommend a psalm as the next step as opposed to a tappie. Theyre just too fast to be a reasonable choice imo, no matter how I look at it. You feel differently, and thats fine. Im going to just agree to disagree, this discussion is getting tiring and going nowhere, we just keep telling each other things the other already knows.

 

[nicodimus22]

studies would indicate that they do indeed experience stress (chemical reactions caused by external stimuli) and, it should be the goal to minimize this in every way possible rather than leaning on their unearthly resiliency

Since you're very focused on what is natural, stop and think for a minute what stressors tarantulas face in the wild.

-Hot weather
-Cold weather
-Floods
-Droughts
-Parasites
-Disease
-Predators
-Pesticides
-Pollution
-Habitat loss

Our tarantulas live in ideal enclosures and experience none of those challenges. The main threat they face is something like a bad molt, or a stupid human making them crawl on his/her face to generate youtube views. Our tarantulas have it very, very good.

You think that being in a catch cup for 30 seconds once every 2 years during a rehouse is going to be a monumental challenge for them to overcome compared to all of what they'd face in nature? I'm sorry, but unless you can prove that there is real damage being done, there is no reason not to rehouse this way. It's safe for them, it's safe for us, and I've never seen anything negative beyond a T having to walk around and learn the layout of its new enclosure, which can take up to a week. If that's the worst thing they ever encounter, they have a nicer life than most tarantulas in the world.

So, if you want to put a 2-3 inch tarantula into a large enclosure to avoid a rehousing or two, you can, as long as you're on top of its care. I just don't want new keepers thinking that they can drop a sling into an adult enclosure to avoid all rehousings, because time and time again we hear about new keepers who do that, and then inevitably the sling escapes or goes missing and dies from dehydration. Slings are their own thing, and because they haven't yet grown the waxy layer that helps them retain moisture, they need more attention than adults, and this is easier for all involved if they're in a smaller container.

personally, i privilege bigger enclosures over more specimens

That should really never be a either/or situation. I feel that a responsible keeper will plan his/her shelf space out for whatever size adult enclosures he or she uses long before the Ts are adults, and not buy more tarantulas than that, regardless of size (unless they also have a viable plan to expand to a higher number of adult enclosures.)

 

[YungRasputin]

Since you're very focused on what is natural, stop and think for a minute what stressors tarantulas face in the wild.

-Hot weather
-Cold weather
-Floods
-Droughts
-Parasites
-Disease
-Predators
-Pesticides
-Pollution
-Habitat loss

Our tarantulas live in ideal enclosures and experience none of those challenges. The main threat they face is something like a bad molt, or a stupid human making them crawl on his/her face to generate youtube views. Our tarantulas have it very, very good.

ok, now, let’s considering the following: where is the one space a spider feels safest? their den - see below for more

You think that being in a catch cup for 30 seconds once every 2 years during a rehouse is going to be a monumental challenge for them to overcome compared to all of what they'd face in nature? I'm sorry, but unless you can prove that there is real damage being done, there is no reason not to rehouse this way. It's safe for them, it's safe for us, and I've never seen anything negative beyond a T having to walk around and learn the layout of its new enclosure, which can take up to a week. If that's the worst thing they ever encounter, they have a nicer life than most tarantulas in the world.

that’s not an accurate characterization of the rehousing process imo - you’re removing all pieces of décor, you’re ripping out their hide, you’re tearing up their den, they’re getting poked and prodded, you’re then placing them in a sterile container that feels foreign to them, and then placing them into another foreign environment where they have no real idea in the immediate, what’s going on, if there are predators in this new place, etc - there’s not really a natural precedent for what’s taking place - of course this is going to be stressful, particularly considering we’re talking about an animal who’s blind, dead and of a limited cognitive level

will they die? no but it’s undeniably an extremely stressful thing which, again, has no natural precedent outside of like a monsoon or predation attack or something

So, if you want to put a 2-3 inch tarantula into a large enclosure to avoid a rehousing or two, you can, as long as you're on top of its care. I just don't want new keepers thinking that they can drop a sling into an adult enclosure to avoid all rehousings, because time and time again we hear about new keepers who do that, and then inevitably the sling escapes or goes missing and dies from dehydration. Slings are their own thing, and because they haven't yet grown the waxy layer that helps them retain moisture, they need more attention than adults, and this is easier for all involved if they're in a smaller container.

people should be learning to get in a routine of intense observation irrespective of which particular method of husbandry they wish to subscribe too

That should really never be a either/or situation. I feel that a responsible keeper will plan his/her shelf space out for whatever size adult enclosures he or she uses long before the Ts are adults, and not buy more tarantulas than that, regardless of size (unless they also have a viable plan to expand to a higher number of adult enclosures.)

that should be true but sadly, given the current state of “the hobby” it’s largely not - we operate in a culture where people regularly will do outlandish things eg: but an illegal Brazilian spider that requires master level care for $300 usd and then complain about the prices of actual enclosures, usually defaulting to shoving it into a food container and saying “this is fine”

 

[nicodimus22]

you’re removing all pieces of décor, you’re ripping out their hide, you’re tearing up their den, they’re getting poked and prodded

No, I'm not, and I truly hope this isn't how you rehouse. You touch them with a long, soft paintbrush, they walk into the catch cup, you touch them again, and they walk into the new enclosure. Why would you remove anything while the T is in there?

you’re then placing them in a sterile container that feels foreign to them, and then placing them into another foreign environment where they have no real idea in the immediate, what’s going on, if there are predators in this new place, etc - there’s not really a natural precedent for what’s taking place - of course this is going to be stressful, particularly considering we’re talking about an animal who’s blind, dead and of a limited cognitive level

You're basically making my point for me. They aren't mammals. They aren't birds. They lack the cognitive abilities that those animals would experience during a rehouse. They're not thinking "I'm worried that there might be predators here." Their intellect just isn't at that level. That's not an insult, of course, as I love tarantulas, but it's true.

 

[YungRasputin]

No, I'm not, and I truly hope this isn't how you rehouse. You touch them with a long, soft paintbrush, they walk into the catch cup, you touch them again, and they walk into the new enclosure. Why would you remove anything while the T is in there?

my comments are based on a) rehousing videos from everyone’s favorite YouTubers b) comments, threads, etc on AB, FB, and so on - i would also say that while yes it would be ideal if you could simply stroke a specimen and they gently walk into a cup but that doesn’t always happen, particularly when we’re talking about OW species - 1 simple stroke could trigger them into teleporting out of the enclosure entirely

décor being removed to facilitate cupping - a lot of this discussion i would say too is dependent upon the enclosures we’re talking about

You're basically making my point for me. They aren't mammals. They aren't birds. They lack the cognitive abilities that those animals would experience during a rehouse. They're not thinking "I'm worried that there might be predators here." Their intellect just isn't at that level. That's not an insult, of course, as I love tarantulas, but it's true.

no, i’m not - saying “they have limited processing abilities” is not the same thing as saying that they don’t have any processing capabilities whatsoever and i don’t think they would survived for millions upon millions of years without be cognizant of their surroundings and using both tactile and chemical processing to navigate the environments they find themselves in

below is a study about stress in insects and it clearly indicates that insects (and arachnids) experience the same neurochemical responses to that of mammals and other animals, specifically, chemicals we typically associate with stress, fears, etc

Predator-induced stress responses in insects: A review - PubMed

Predators can induce extreme stress and profound physiological responses in prey. Insects are the most dominant animal group on Earth and serve as prey for many different predators. Although insects have an extraordinary diversity of anti-predator behavioral and physiological responses...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[goonius]

No, I'm not, and I truly hope this isn't how you rehouse. You touch them with a long, soft paintbrush, they walk into the catch cup, you touch them again, and they walk into the new enclosure. Why would you remove anything while the T is in there?

I’ve rehoused all my NW arboreals at least once and not a single one walked into a catch cup after a gentle prod with a paintbrush. All the species in question retreat to their web+dirt tube/tunnels and require — yes — removal of tank objects, usually ones they have built their dens behind, to safely coax them out and into a catch cup — and that’s in an idyllic scenario. For some of mine, we have had to remove the web tube itself (with the spider inside) and place it in the new enclosure before the spider could be coaxed out.

We bought three Sphodros this past winter and, while I imagine this isn’t standard shipping procedure the seller shipped them all in their web tubes. It was an odd arrangement but kept them safe and secure — they all survived the shipment and are thriving. I’d gather from that experience we aren’t the only ones who remove the entire web tube.

My point is this: if you own any of these types of spiders you know that disassembling the tank to remove the spider is EXACTLY what you have to do to safely rehouse them. It’s probably the least traumatic way, tho I would agree with @YungRasputin that all rehouses of these species are stressful and involve destroying their homes.

I mean, sure — rehousing an Aphonopelma or Tlittocatl is nothing more than some paintbrush prodding until the spider reluctantly moves forward. But for any of the fast NW arboreals, it’s far less straightforward. These fast spiders don’t just sit there chilling and waiting for you to give them a gentle prod. I’m surprised anyone with experience with these species would suggest otherwise.

 

[nicodimus22]

I’ve rehoused all my NW arboreals at least once and not a single one walked into a catch cup after a gentle prod with a paintbrush.

Well, in that case we're simply not talking about the same thing. I rarely have arboreals. I'm almost exclusively NW terrestrials, and that's usually how they act. Even the species that people say are nasty are usually pretty chill. Threat poses are rare. P. sazimai account for most of them.

 

[nicodimus22]

my comments are based on a) rehousing videos from everyone’s favorite YouTubers

Well, there's your first mistake. Youtube is basically a cesspool of attention-seeking morons, other than Tom Moran.

yes it would be ideal if you could simply stroke a specimen and they gently walk into a cup but that doesn’t always happen, particularly when we’re talking about OW species - 1 simple stroke could trigger them into teleporting out of the enclosure entirely

décor being removed to facilitate cupping - a lot of this discussion i would say too is dependent upon the enclosures we’re talking about

Well, aside from basic tarantula knowledge, I don't have any experience with or know anything about OWs, so I'll take your word for it. My tarantulas do generally walk right into the catch cup and out again without much fuss. Except for the P. sazimai.

saying “they have limited processing abilities” is not the same thing as saying that they don’t have any processing capabilities whatsoever and i don’t think they would survived for millions upon millions of years without be cognizant of their surroundings and using both tactile and chemical processing to navigate the environments they find themselves in

They're instinctual creatures for the most part. They have such a primitive brain (technically not a brain, just clusters of nerve cells) that it's surprising that they do as well as they do as predators. I do not agree that they feel the same level of stress as an animal with a more advanced brain like birds or mammals. They don't possess the hardware to have emotions...we just project ours onto them (and sadly, we do that to most animals.) They respond to stimuli at a basic level, and that's about it. The most advanced thing I've seen tarantulas do on a mental level is get familiar with their enclosures...almost like a blind person memorizing where the furniture is in his room, for example.

below is a study about stress in insects and it clearly indicates that insects (and arachnids) experience the same neurochemical responses to that of mammals and other animals, specifically, chemicals we typically associate with stress, fears, etc

Predator-induced stress responses in insects: A review - PubMed

Predators can induce extreme stress and profound physiological responses in prey. Insects are the most dominant animal group on Earth and serve as prey for many different predators. Although insects have an extraordinary diversity of anti-predator behavioral and physiological responses...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Chemical reactions =/= brain power.

 

[goonius]

Well, in that case we're simply not talking about the same thing. I rarely have arboreals. I'm almost exclusively NW terrestrials, and that's usually how they act. Even the species that people say are nasty are usually pretty chill. Threat poses are rare. P. sazimai account for most of them.

The thread was about arboreals, specifically beginner arboreals — which I personally agree, are NW arboreals. I keep only NW because I don’t really fancy being envenomated by a potentially life-altering toxin if I misjudge a situation.

Since we are talking about arboreals, I think it’s also valid to go directly from sling enclosures to adult enclosures. I did with each of mine, keeping them in Ferrero Rocher boxes until they were in the 2” DLS range, and then moving them to ExoTerra Nano Talls. All of the arboreals mentioned are very fast growing — they quickly need the extra space, so it’s just common sense to anticipate growth rate when planning a rehousing.

Conversely, many of our terrestrials go through about 4 enclosures before adulthood, especially the slow growing species. They are easy to rehouse, and — with a few exceptions — they just don’t have the elaborate web structures that they rely on for security.

We have just under 30 different specimens from terrestrial, dwarf, arboreal, semi-arboreal, and fossorial. They all feel stress acutely, which can be observed by their behaviors during and after moving compared to when they are established in an enclosure. Some are at home almost right away in a new enclosure, while others struggle to adjust for weeks. It’s an observation, not anthropomorphization. I don’t think they’re crying down in their new burrows or pining for the enclosure they once loved, some just struggle more than others to acclimatize to new surroundings after being ripped from the place they felt secure and safe from predators. Others have no problem getting right to work. Amongst our Sphodros, 2 built new web tubes straight away. The third we began to wonder if it was dead. It hid underground for over a week.

Their nerve ganglia may not allow for sentience, self-awareness, and ability to plan for the future, but they do display clear signs of stress. Even among the same genus and species you can observe different behavioral traits, as mentioned above with the Sphodros, suggesting each specimen is unique and thus responds to stimuli differently. I puzzle over how this is such an affronting idea

 

[YungRasputin]

Well, there's your first mistake. Youtube is basically a cesspool of attention-seeking morons, other than Tom Moran.

funny you should say this because he’s specifically who i had in mind when writing my comments re: his cheese poof-cup videos where he’s rehousing OW arboreals in what is probably the most stressful way possible

Well, aside from basic tarantula knowledge, I don't have any experience with or know anything about OWs, so I'll take your word for it. My tarantulas do generally walk right into the catch cup and out again without much fuss. Except for the P. sazimai.

the overwhelming majority of my experience in arachnid keeping is from keeping OWs who’s venom levels range from an extremely painful day to death - my niche being African species and there are several specimens in my collection with lethal venom (even with immediate medical attention eg: H. tamulus)

to me keeping OW arachnids is a lot like keeping giant constrictor snakes - it’s amazing, it’s unbelievable, it’s so v rewarding to have the privilege of working with these animals but they command a tremendous amount of respect and with some species there is just 0 margin for error - it can be done safely if done in a correct way which comes down to how these animals approached, prepped and kept imo

which of course we have not observed a lethal tarantula species (yet) however what does not kill can still seriously harm and in the American healthcare system, cost you a tremendous amount of moneys

They're instinctual creatures for the most part. They have such a primitive brain (technically not a brain, just clusters of nerve cells) that it's surprising that they do as well as they do as predators. I do not agree that they feel the same level of stress as an animal with a more advanced brain like birds or mammals. They don't possess the hardware to have emotions...we just project ours onto them (and sadly, we do that to most animals.) They respond to stimuli at a basic level, and that's about it. The most advanced thing I've seen tarantulas do on a mental level is get familiar with their enclosures...almost like a blind person memorizing where the furniture is in his room, for example.

i strongly disagree and would argue that the intelligence of arachnids (and snakes) and our understanding of this, is tremendously flawed and as time passes this is being continuously re-examined and confirmed by scientific inquiry

Chemical reactions =/= brain power.

mammalian emotions are, quite literally, chemical reactions to stimuli - not all that different from arachnids, reptiles, etc - we can literally breakdown the chemical compositions of each experiential emotive state

 

[YungRasputin]

this thread may have gone into tangents but ultimately this discourse is still important and i still stand by my recommendation - bolts are going to happen, even slow moving NW terrestrial species can bolt when they want to, and it’s most ideal for beginner keepers to learn how to cope with that with low venom level species

and, further, it would build a tremendous amount of confidence - if you can handle tappi speed then you can handle Psalms + OW arboreals speeds

 

[nicodimus22]

The thread was about arboreals, specifically beginner arboreals —

It was. Where I came in was a general comment about buying enclosures for tarantulas instead of the other way around. I didn't really think we had specifically gone back to arboreal talk, but I may have been mistaken.

Arboreals are not an area that I'd claim to have expertise in, aside from basic tarantula knowledge that applies to all of them. Over the years, I've had an A. avicularia, a C. versicolor, and I have a P. cambridgei now. I have cupped and transferred them easily. The P. cam is faster, but wasn't really any harder to transfer than anyone else...it walked into the cup pretty calmly the last time. It's currently in an 8 X 8 X12 enclosure, and the 12 X 12 X 18 will be its adult enclosure in 2 more molts or so.

 

[nicodimus22]

Double post, please delete this.

 

[nicodimus22]

Triple post, please delete this.

 

[nicodimus22]

Quadruple post, no idea why this has happened. Please delete this.

 

[nicodimus22]

funny you should say this because he’s specifically who i had in mind when writing my comments re: his cheese poof-cup videos where he’s rehousing OW arboreals in what is probably the most stressful way possible.

Tom puts his ego aside and shows rehousings that didn't go well deliberately so that other people can analyze what went wrong, how to improve it, and learn from his mistakes instead of making their own mistakes. I don't know how that's a bad thing. If there is someone on youtube that you feel is a better educator than Tom, please direct us to his/her channel. All I see on youtube other than him is a wasteland of idiots who use tarantulas for views and attention, personally.

the overwhelming majority of my experience in arachnid keeping is from keeping OWs who’s venom levels range from an extremely painful day to death

Death? Has anyone in recorded history died from a tarantula bite alone? That's the kind of misinformation I'd expect from someone who knows nothing about tarantulas, not a hobbyist.

i strongly disagree and would argue that the intelligence of arachnids (and snakes) and our understanding of this, is tremendously flawed and as time passes this is being continuously re-examined and confirmed by scientific inquiry

A couple of thoughts:

First, snakes are reptiles and have formal brains, anatomically speaking. I don't doubt that they're as intelligent as other reptiles (which share some things in common with birds, which are known to be pretty smart animals.) We have 36 chickens on our farm currently, and many of them are very intelligent, which makes the fact that so many are slaughtered and eaten by us daily, or forced to lay in poor conditions until their bodies fail, that much more disturbing to me. You can see the wheels turning when you watch them. It's very easy to observe their intelligence. They can be trained with a dog clicker to do all kinds of things. There is a book on it called "Click with your chick" that was written by a dog trainer who applied her dog techniques to her chickens. It's on Amazon, so if you doubt me you can look it up.

Second, you can disagree, but facts are facts. Ganglia are not capable of many of the same things that a proper (and clearly much more advanced) brain in a bird or mammal is. I don't know of a scientist, arachnologist or otherwise, that would disagree with this statement. They are an amazingly efficient product of evolution, but there are limits on what they can and can't do, as with all animals.

mammalian emotions are, quite literally, chemical reactions to stimuli - not all that different from arachnids, reptiles, etc - we can literally breakdown the chemical compositions of each experiential emotive state

I don't know what to make of this response, because I never said a word about emotion. I said "chemical reactions =/= brain power." And they don't.

 

[YungRasputin]

Tom puts his ego aside and shows rehousings that didn't go well deliberately so that other people can analyze what went wrong, how to improve it, and learn from his mistakes instead of making their own mistakes. I don't know how that's a bad thing. If there is someone on youtube that you feel is a better educator than Tom, please direct us to his/her channel. All I see on youtube other than him is a wasteland of idiots who use tarantulas for views and attention, personally.

what i am talking about is not one of his “failure vids” but rather one of his “success vids” in which he used a paintbrush and holed cup to transfer a pokie into a new enclosure - which, comparative to Dave from Dave’s Little Beastie who’s rehoused similar species simply by picking up a piece of cork with the specimen on it, placing it into the new enclosure and gently giving its back leg 2 strokes before it moves off said bark

one is clearly more stressful than the other - does this mean Dave is beyond criticism? no, does this mean i think Tom is a “bad keeper”? also no, i just disagree with some of his techniques - no keeper is beyond criticism, i disagree with some of Dave’s practices too (see screen tops) - the only thing that matters to me is which practices are most correct and can be defended as being so based upon current science

Death? Has anyone in recorded history died from a tarantula bite alone? That's the kind of misinformation I'd expect from someone who knows nothing about tarantulas, not a hobbyist.

i already addressed this before it was said and i think my previous comments were p clear or is it being suggested that OW scorpions do not possess lethal venom? several people die each year from being stung by H. hottentotta, H. tamulus, A. crassicauda, etc - why deny this? i mean following the LD50 H. tamulus venom is significantly more toxic to humans than a lot of elapid venom

First, snakes are reptiles and have formal brains, anatomically speaking. I don't doubt that they're as intelligent as other reptiles (which share some things in common with birds, which are known to be pretty smart animals.) We have 36 chickens on our farm currently, and many of them are very intelligent, which makes the fact that so many are slaughtered and eaten by us daily, or forced to lay in poor conditions until their bodies fail, that much more disturbing to me. You can see the wheels turning when you watch them. It's very easy to observe their intelligence. They can be trained with a dog clicker to do all kinds of things. There is a book on it called "Click with your chick" that was written by a dog trainer who applied her dog techniques to her chickens. It's on Amazon, so if you doubt me you can look it up.

ok

Second, you can disagree, but facts are facts. Ganglia are not capable of many of the same things that a proper (and clearly much more advanced) brain in a bird or mammal is. I don't know of a scientist, arachnologist or otherwise, that would disagree with this statement. They are an amazingly efficient product of evolution, but there are limits on what they can and can't do, as with all animals.

the below article deals with/touches upon the majority of your arguments here:

The Genius of Pinheads: When Little Brains Rule

Bigger brains are not always better

www.scientificamerican.com

I don't know what to make of this response, because I never said a word about emotion. I said "chemical reactions =/= brain power." And they don't.

my previous comments, at the time, was my reading in which it seemed there was a distinction being made between “biochemical reactions” + “emotions” - if this was mistaken that’s my b

 

[nicodimus22]

what i am talking about is not one of his “failure vids” but rather one of his “success vids” in which he used a paintbrush and holed cup to transfer a pokie into a new enclosure - which, comparative to Dave from Dave’s Little Beastie who’s rehoused similar species simply by picking up a piece of cork with the specimen on it, placing it into the new enclosure and gently giving its back leg 2 strokes before it moves off said bark

one is clearly more stressful than the other - does this mean Dave is beyond criticism? no, does this mean i think Tom is a “bad keeper”? also no, i just disagree with some of his techniques - no keeper is beyond criticism, i disagree with some of Dave’s practices too (see screen tops) - the only thing that matters to me is which practices are most correct and can be defended as being so based upon current science

Fair enough. I will look at Dave and see what his channel is about.

i think my previous comments were p clear or is it being suggested that OW scorpions do not possess lethal venom?

Scorpions? You're changing the subject instead of answering my question, because you know the answer is simply "no." Moving on.

the below article deals with/touches upon the majority of your arguments here:

The Genius of Pinheads: When Little Brains Rule

Bigger brains are not always better

www.scientificamerican.com

Right out of the gate, he says "No one would argue that a tarantula is as smart as a dolphin or that having a really big brain is not an excellent way to perform complicated tasks." That's what I'm saying. Animals with more advanced brains are capable of more advanced tasks. The article is mostly about how impressively efficient tiny brains can be, but that's not the same thing as being more intelligent.

 

[YungRasputin]

Fair enough. I will look at Dave and see what his channel is about.

per this discussion i would use Dave as a comparative example of my own rehousing practices as we use the same equipment and share similar practices, techniques, and mindsets - particularly with respective to bioactive terraculture

Scorpions? You're changing the subject instead of answering my question, because you know the answer is simply "no." Moving on.

no, i did not i listed my overall experiences which inform my perspectives and practices by stating that the majority of my time in arachnid keeping has been spent working with OW arachnids, both scorpions *and* tarantulas - the purpose of which was to signal that everything i do is designed to limit contact between keeper and the animal and be as least disturbing/stressful to said animal and that the reason for this is because of the venom levels, speed, temperaments, unpredictability, etc that is characteristic of OW species

contextually contrasting myself with that of keepers who specialize in NW species who’s perspective, experiences and practices may differ from my own because of this

Right out of the gate, he says "No one would argue that a tarantula is as smart as a dolphin or that having a really big brain is not an excellent way to perform complicated tasks." That's what I'm saying. Animals with more advanced brains are capable of more advanced tasks. The article is mostly about how impressively efficient tiny brains can be, but that's not the same thing as being more intelligent.

the discussion was not “are tarantulas/spiders *more* intelligent than X” but rather “are they or are they not intelligent, do they experience stress, on what level, etc” to which, following what is presented in the 2 articles i have cited so far, we have answered those questions that yes, tarantulas are intelligent, they do experience stress on a neurochemical level, etc

to that end, it behoove us to mitigate stress when and where possible and “but did you die tho?” should not be the mantra of arachnid care