Visit From The Usda!!

[kahoy]

good thing i dont have my coown internet nnection on our house, i always rent on PC cafes, hahaha i round around the city and they cant find me... LOLOLOLOL!!!

i only have local species, no impoted ones.

im just joking, its only a joke, JK JK JK! ;P

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

Does anyone know if the USDA shows up at your house with a search warrant, or do people just let them in? I wouldn't let them in without a search warrant.

People just let them in. It's a regulation not a law.

 

[C_Strike]

Poor americans and thier regulations...i can count myself pretty lucky here in UK when it comes to inverts..we got a vast variety readily available..and no regulations..all down to our brilliant climate. lmao

 

[Dom]

Poor americans and thier regulations...i can count myself pretty lucky here in UK when it comes to inverts..we got a vast variety readily available..and no regulations..all down to our brilliant climate. lmao

What about buthid scorpions?

 

[dangerprone69]

Does anyone know of any sites where the USDA lists banned/restricted species? It seems to me that many hobbyists buy specimens not knowing they're illegal, or the agency bans them after the fact.

Well, at least our t's and scorps are safe . . . (for now).

 

[Wade]

It'd be easier to list what is allowed, since it's a much shorter list! If it's an insect and it eats plants, even long dead roten plants, the USDA considers it a potential pest. If it's a predatory insect and might feed on bees or butterflies, then the USDA considers it a potential pest. There's not many insects that don't fall into one of those incredibly broad categories! Fully aquatic insects are about the only ones that don't.

There is a short list of exceptions that the USDA does not require permits for including house crickets, common mealworms, and recently, the Madagascan hissing cockroach.

I'm somewhat curious about their regulation of millipedes. They're not insects, so I'm not sure if they'd really have the jurisdiction to regulate them without the mite excuse. There are many mites that are real pests, but the only thing that stops the USDA from regulating other arachnids is that they come under the USFWS, who are only concerned with US endangered species, CITES violaions and Lacey Act violations.

Although I've been using the word "banned" and others have been saying "illegal", as Orin points out these are USDA regulations and not actual laws, so I don't know if someone could actually be arrested or fined for having these insects, they just take them. And, without a search warrant, no one is obliged to let them into your home. This is why most of the enforcment is focused on business establishments. Since they're not laws, I don't know how many judges would actually grant a search warrant. However, that said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the USDA were compiling data in order to petition congress to make the regs laws.

Also, the strictly speaking they're not really forbidden, they just require a permit to have them. Of course, in most cases the average individual without a containment facility has a snowball's chance in hell of getting the permits. Each species must be listed on the permit, and if you actually get the permit to have the regulated insect, you also have to list ALL your animals, even the ones that don't require permits (including arachnids) on the permit application. After you have the permit, you are of course subject to USDA inspection whenever they want.

For those of you outside the US who are scraching your heads, there are few, if any, laws about owning dangerous animals at the federal level, although there are lots at the state and local levels. I think the UK has many more dangerous animal laws, don't you need a permit for buthids, widows etc?

Wade

 

[C_Strike]

What about buthid scorpions?

Aye true there is the DWA.. kinda forgot bowt that one.. carried away with reading about the US regulations, lol
Also, very few petshops actively advertise DWA licensed pets. though i saw some small spectacled caimen a few weeks ago, but thast all iv seen personally.

 

[andy83]

I really wish that all of this could be a states issue instead of a federal one. I also wish that the usda would actually clarify their bans instead of being so vague.

A petition sounds like fun but it would more than likely end up being a waste of time. I wonder how many bureaucratic desks it would run by before it hit the trash can.

I would like to see a large tropical phasmid survive an Indiana winter. Europe's agriculture hasn't collapsed because of phasmid invasions...

I suppose I'll just keep dreaming and enjoy pictures.

 

[Wade]

The problem with banning them by state is that once their in the US, there are few, if any, obstacles to shipping them to other states.

The thing about the big, showy phasmids that hobbyists are interested in is that they've been cultivated in captiivity in the US for something like 30 YEARS. If they haven't become pests anywhere yet, it's not likely to happen now. I don't expect the USDA to just drop all regulations (some bugs could indeed be pests), but it is resonable to ask that the exceptions list be expanded a bit. Common sense indicates that the 10 or so phasmid species with a long history in culture are unlikely to become pests.

Wade

 

[dtknow]

So is their any way to petition for such a list? Allowing these phasmids to be kept by average people?

 

[dangerprone69]

I really wish that all of this could be a states issue instead of a federal one. I also wish that the usda would actually clarify their bans instead of being so vague.

A petition sounds like fun but it would more than likely end up being a waste of time. I wonder how many bureaucratic desks it would run by before it hit the trash can.

I would like to see a large tropical phasmid survive an Indiana winter. Europe's agriculture hasn't collapsed because of phasmid invasions...

I suppose I'll just keep dreaming and enjoy pictures.

There's problems with keeping it at the state and local level also, isn't there a town in California whose mayor pushed through an ordinance banning the keeping of pet snakes because someone's pet escaped and found it's way to his front yard?

 

[Rizzolo]

Although I've been using the word "banned" and others have been saying "illegal", as Orin points out these are USDA regulations and not actual laws, so I don't know if someone could actually be arrested or fined for having these insects, they just take them. And, without a search warrant, no one is obliged to let them into your home. This is why most of the enforcment is focused on business establishments. Since they're not laws, I don't know how many judges would actually grant a search warrant. However, that said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the USDA were compiling data in order to petition congress to make the regs laws.

I know this point is a little confusing and I don't completely understand it myself, but you should not make assumptions about what the agencies can and can't do.

Legislation enacts laws. Laws authorize codes, which are regulations. Regulations are used to enforce the law. the regulations come from the law and are NOT inherently less enforceable, unless they are poorly written.

You can have administrative, civil, and/or criminal violations of codes (regulations) depending on what the code provides, how egregious the violations are and what intent you had. it is also easier than you think to get a warrant.

I am not involved in enforcement of the types of rules that you are discussing in this thread, so don't know anything about the rules involved, but don't assume anything about what the authorities can or can't do!

 

[Ant Worker]

Easy solution; don't do illegal things.
Honestly the USDA kinda sucks. Sure I know they are out to protect us and stuff, but they make it unreasonably hard for the good collectors to get a hold of their insects. Which is really annoying and over the top.
USDA can read my posts, don't matter. Quick, now everyone go post about your illegal insects, when they show up, refuse entry and take pictures and post GOGOGO.
(NO I don't have illegal insects)

 

[andy83]

Just another thing that ticks me off about all of this....

One of the more memorable times of my childhood was when I went to the zoo and saw a colony of Phillium sp. I'm glad that zoos remain such great institutions but just think of how wonderful it would be to have a Heteropteryx dilatata or a Phyllium sp in every science classroom in this country. Imagine how many young people out there would have a greater interest in biology. Both of the species that I mentioned would rightly fit on an exceptions list.

Grrrrrr....

Maybe one of these days...

 

[funnylori]

What I don't understand is why of all places they seem to be targeting AB so much. People sell phasmids and other crazy things on all kinds of popular boards and internet sites. There is even a few petstores I know of that have sold them. I think they are very facinating bugs, and I am glad that I have had the experience to handle a few of them at a permitted bug zoo.

 

[edesign]

i didn't know that they were targeting AB that much...i've only heard of one, maybe two people who ever got a visit from the USDA. Maybe I should start a new poll to see who has been visited?

 

[rYe]

Does anyone know if the USDA shows up at your house with a search warrant, or do people just let them in? I wouldn't let them in without a search warrant.

Darn skippy! (hate self censorship) USDA can show up at my door, but without a search warrant and other proper identification they've got 20 seconds to get off my privite properity before I let the H. Lividum loose.

 

[Wade]

I
I am not involved in enforcement of the types of rules that you are discussing in this thread, so don't know anything about the rules involved, but don't assume anything about what the authorities can or can't do!

I'm wondering where I "assumed" anything. My posts are peppered with phrases like "I don't know if" and "I'm not sure if". The only thing I assumed was that it was obvious that I was speculating, but clearly I was wrong! Nowhere did I ever state anything about what they can and can't do, I can only make guesses based on past observations on how the USDA has handled these situtaions in the past.

However, he regs ARE poorly written in my opinion, deliberately so I believe. There is very little consistancy in the way the USDA enforces these regs, and it is apparently quite selective. They are so broad in their definition that nearly every invertebrate could be classified as a pest, but the trade many are a completely unrestricted. Cockroaches are the perfect example. How many people here culture at least one species of exotic cockroach? Unless the only one you have is G. portentosa, then you are violating USDA regulations. How many people do think are aware of that, when they are openly sold on the internet, at reptile shows, and at pet stores? At any moment, the USDA could decide to start enforcing this.


Wade

 

[roach dude]

You know im pretty dam glad i live in the u.k.... i dont think their are any law's against keeping hardly any invert....

 

[syndicate]

You know im pretty dam glad i live in the u.k.... i dont think their are any law's against keeping hardly any invert....

youve heard of the dwa right?