Tarantulas being bred for size?

[Mike Withrow]

Ahh ok. Well maybe next week then! Lol.its tempting tho.

 

[Charliemum]

Ahh ok. Well maybe next week then! Lol.its tempting tho.

Yes it is I will see if I can find it cheaper or even a free copy and if I can I will pm you the link

 

[Mike Withrow]

Thank you. That would be awesome.

 

[IntermittentSygnal]

I was just reading this thread yesterday.

A new Hysterocrates species????

I've just seen an advert on a well known UK based reptile forum, offering what is claimed to be a new species of Hysterocrates, H goliathus. The seller claims to have been selectively breeding these for the last 13 years and is releasing a small number of offspring to the hobby. Now I'm a little...

arachnoboards.com

 

[Charliemum]

I was just reading this thread yesterday.

A new Hysterocrates species????

I've just seen an advert on a well known UK based reptile forum, offering what is claimed to be a new species of Hysterocrates, H goliathus. The seller claims to have been selectively breeding these for the last 13 years and is releasing a small number of offspring to the hobby. Now I'm a little...

arachnoboards.com

Clearly he was the dude from this video. Small world

 

[Mike Withrow]

I was just reading this thread yesterday.

A new Hysterocrates species????

I've just seen an advert on a well known UK based reptile forum, offering what is claimed to be a new species of Hysterocrates, H goliathus. The seller claims to have been selectively breeding these for the last 13 years and is releasing a small number of offspring to the hobby. Now I'm a little...

arachnoboards.com

Yeah that was one of the threads I was talking about. That and I'm not trying to belittle anyone or anything like that but,there is a comment made and references a thread made here and well, I have no idea who that person is and what academic credentials they have,but the thunder of the gods so to speak never has chimed in so that's enough for me to stay away.

Plus whoever that person is more than likely if I'm to be honest has more experience than I do so there is that as well LMAO!

 

[TechnoGeek]

Clearly he was the dude from this video. Small world

H. goliathus?? So he decided that he's qualified to discover and classify a new species and then name it? Exactly what kind of bg does this dude have again?

 

[Mike Withrow]

H. goliathus?? So he decided that he's qualified to discover and classify a new species and then name it? Exactly what kind of bg does this dude have again?

That also was a wth?
Like I said even @Theraphosid Research Team made a comment on this species.

I've never not once read anything revisions wise on these in a long time. Heck I don't even think what I've read was any revision at all.

I'd like to apologize in advance to @Charliemum for going off topic. Lol
I started with Asian spiders so I'm gun shy when it comes to breeding and people knowing what they have .
I've been humbled by a member here and kept me from making a huge mistake.

 

[Charliemum]

That also was a wth?
Like I said even @Theraphosid Research Team made a comment on this species.

I've never not once read anything revisions wise on these in a long time. Heck I don't even think what I've read was any revision at all.

I'd like to apologize in advance to @Charliemum for going off topic. Lol
I started with Asian spiders so I'm gun shy when it comes to breeding and people knowing what they have .
I've been humbled by a member here and kept me from making a huge mistake.

I have np with off topic I don't breed t's myself but my SO does so I try to learn about it so I at least know what he is talking about and hopefully help so I research, and because of that I get random stuff like the vid in question on my feed lol.
I have been humbled on ab many a time, it's why I love it so much, people have experience and advice that wouldn't even occur to me and I welcome every bit of it

 

[Arachnophobphile]

OK so a vid popped up on my utube feed this morning about breeding t's for specific trates, what they were trying to achieve is an H. gigas to match the size of a Theraphosa blondi. For this to happen they are line breeding the biggest males back to the females, just off 8 inches being the biggest male and 9inch ish being the size of the female, these are t's he has bred from the original female when he started this task bk in 2011. I am curious though could this really be done? Wouldn't there be genetic problems off "line breeding" as it seems to cause problems with all other sp ? T's have such big sacs aren't there to many to guarantee that all baby's would have these "big" genetics?

Please don't get me wrong I am not bashing this person in any way, I am just curious if this is a possibility, and if so why aren't all breeders doing it to get massive t's? I am curious to see what others think on this subject, is it taboo or is it genius? I can't make up my mind so I thought I would ask on ab to get more information as it's something I have never thought about or heard of others doing tbh .


This is the upload in question.

I know exactly what you're talking about. A new entry was made on that thread yesterday here on AB with the video. Now I can't find the thread anymore.

I've taken genetics back when I was in college. However that was so long ago I haven't retained everything I learned.

One thing that is true about inbreeding is that the offspring will have defects. Tarantulas are not immune to this. That's why I've always been against people inbreeding T's out of convenience. The bigger issue is how is one to know with the slings they buy? Not all sellers/breeders will reply to difficult questions by buyers as I have learned.

Some do it as an experiment such as the video they posted.

Effects of Inbreeding on Genetic Characteristic, Growth, Survival Rates, and Immune Responses of a New Inbred Line of Exopalaemon carinicauda

The Exopalaemon carinicauda could be a useful crustacean laboratory animal in many research fields. We newly established an inbred line of Exopalaemon carinicauda named EC4 inbred line by brother×sister mating and keeping to F[11] generation. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

.


Either way, there will be genetic defects in the offspring.

I'm also a firm believer in letting nature take it's course when it comes to eggsacs. It is better not to pull them early trying to save every baby T. Slings that survive will be stronger and healthier.

Some breeders take issue with that when breeding rare expensive T's.

My answer to that is if I'm buying a rare expensive sling I want it with the best starting chance possible. I actually want that for any slings I buy rare or not, cheap or pricey.

UPDATE: Ha found it

Hysterocrates hercules Research

Hey Ooya! I really enjoyed reading your blog on your website and it's nice that you want to educate the hobbyists of Japan about Hysterocrates species very well done! You seem to be accurate in the gigas/ crassipes comparisons and you have seen the subtle differences at the various life stages...

arachnoboards.com

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

OK so a vid popped up on my utube feed this morning about breeding t's for specific trates, what they were trying to achieve is an H. gigas to match the size of a Theraphosa blondi. For this to happen they are line breeding the biggest males back to the females, just off 8 inches being the biggest male and 9inch ish being the size of the female, these are t's he has bred from the original female when he started this task bk in 2011. I am curious though could this really be done? Wouldn't there be genetic problems off "line breeding" as it seems to cause problems with all other sp ? T's have such big sacs aren't there to many to guarantee that all baby's would have these "big" genetics?

Please don't get me wrong I am not bashing this person in any way, I am just curious if this is a possibility, and if so why aren't all breeders doing it to get massive t's? I am curious to see what others think on this subject, is it taboo or is it genius? I can't make up my mind so I thought I would ask on ab to get more information as it's something I have never thought about or heard of others doing tbh .


This is the upload in question.

It’s impossible to get anything like g gigas Regularly the size of t blondi . However breeding larger specimens might make a small rise in size.
that would be like saying you want a dwarf species to get the size of g rosea from breeding. It’s not like breeding dogs.

 

[A guy]

I know exactly what you're talking about. A new entry was made on that thread yesterday here on AB with the video. Now I can't find the thread anymore.

I've taken genetics back when I was in college. However that was so long ago I haven't retained everything I learned.

One thing that is true about inbreeding is that the offspring will have defects. Tarantulas are not immune to this. That's why I've always been against people inbreeding T's out of convenience. The bigger issue is how is one to know with the slings they buy? Not all sellers/breeders will reply to difficult questions by buyers as I have learned.

Some do it as an experiment such as the video they posted.

Effects of Inbreeding on Genetic Characteristic, Growth, Survival Rates, and Immune Responses of a New Inbred Line of Exopalaemon carinicauda

The Exopalaemon carinicauda could be a useful crustacean laboratory animal in many research fields. We newly established an inbred line of Exopalaemon carinicauda named EC4 inbred line by brother×sister mating and keeping to F[11] generation. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

.


Either way, there will be genetic defects in the offspring.

I'm also a firm believer in letting nature take it's course when it comes to eggsacs. It is better not to pull them early trying to save every baby T. Slings that survive will be stronger and healthier.

Some breeders take issue with that when breeding rare expensive T's.

There's a book called "Tarantulas: breeding experience and wildlife" by a great breeder and pioneer in the Hobby, Jean Michel Verdez. It touches on this subject. It states that tarantulas in some degree are immune to inbreeding, tons of species in the hobby were introduced and was established by only a handful of specimens. Meaning many species present in the tarantula hobby could be traced back from just a single breeding group. Thousands and thousands of specimens, countless generations traced back to a single breeding group.

Also in Andrew Smith's most recent documentary, he says that Poecilotheria in the wild live in clusters. In a single area, multiple trees each contain clusters of let's say Poecilotheria regalis. Now when a mature male arises from a cluster, if there isn't any available female of breeding size, he will simply move on to the nearest tree containing a different cluster to find a female.
Tarantulas do not travel that far in order to breed, why would they? When they could find a female in their area. So in someway, tarantulas in a single area are related.

 

[Mike Withrow]

I know exactly what you're talking about. A new entry was made on that thread yesterday here on AB with the video. Now I can't find the thread anymore.

I've taken genetics back when I was in college. However that was so long ago I haven't retained everything I learned.

One thing that is true about inbreeding is that the offspring will have defects. Tarantulas are not immune to this. That's why I've always been against people inbreeding T's out of convenience. The bigger issue is how is one to know with the slings they buy? Not all sellers/breeders will reply to difficult questions by buyers as I have learned.

Some do it as an experiment such as the video they posted.

Effects of Inbreeding on Genetic Characteristic, Growth, Survival Rates, and Immune Responses of a New Inbred Line of Exopalaemon carinicauda

The Exopalaemon carinicauda could be a useful crustacean laboratory animal in many research fields. We newly established an inbred line of Exopalaemon carinicauda named EC4 inbred line by brother×sister mating and keeping to F[11] generation. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

.


Either way, there will be genetic defects in the offspring.

I'm also a firm believer in letting nature take it's course when it comes to eggsacs. It is better not to pull them early trying to save every baby T. Slings that survive will be stronger and healthier.

Some breeders take issue with that when breeding rare expensive T's.

My answer to that is if I'm buying a rare expensive sling I want it with the best starting chance possible. I actually want that for any slings I buy rare or not, cheap or pricey.

UPDATE: Ha found it

Hysterocrates hercules Research

Hey Ooya! I really enjoyed reading your blog on your website and it's nice that you want to educate the hobbyists of Japan about Hysterocrates species very well done! You seem to be accurate in the gigas/ crassipes comparisons and you have seen the subtle differences at the various life stages...

arachnoboards.com

I've read that thread a bunch. I've been waiting for the proper person to respond to any of it and they have not.

There's a book called "Tarantulas: breeding experience and wildlife" by a great breeder and pioneer in the Hobby, Jean Michel Verdez. It touches on this subject. It states that tarantulas in some degree are immune to inbreeding, tons of species in the hobby were introduced and was established by only a handful of specimens. Meaning many species present in the tarantula hobby could be traced back from just a single breeding group. Thousands and thousands of specimens, countless generations traced back to a single breeding group.

Also in Andrew Smith's most recent documentary, he says that Poecilotheria in the wild live in clusters. In a single area, multiple trees each contain clusters of let's say Poecilotheria regalis. Now when a mature male arises from a cluster, if there isn't any available female of breeding size, he will simply move on to the nearest tree containing a different cluster to find a female.
Tarantulas do not travel that far in order to breed, why would they? When they could find a female in their area. So in someway, tarantulas in a single area are related.

I understand what you are saying.
I mean I've seen an actual picture he took of Cyriopagopus albostriatus in baskets full no way were they sourced and not been breeding together. I'm not talking about just a handful. It was massive.the look on his face alone says everything.

 

[Charliemum]

There's a book called "Tarantulas: breeding experience and wildlife" by a great breeder and pioneer in the Hobby, Jean Michel Verdez. It touches on this subject. It states that tarantulas in some degree are immune to inbreeding, tons of species in the hobby were introduced and was established by only a handful of specimens. Meaning many species present in the tarantula hobby could be traced back from just a single breeding group. Thousands and thousands of specimens, countless generations traced back to a single breeding group.

Also in Andrew Smith's most recent documentary, he says that Poecilotheria in the wild live in clusters. In a single area, multiple trees each contain clusters of let's say Poecilotheria regalis. Now when a mature male arises from a cluster, if there isn't any available female of breeding size, he will simply move on to the nearest tree containing a different cluster to find a female.
Tarantulas do not travel that far in order to breed, why would they? When they could find a female in their area. So in someway, tarantulas in a single area are related.

I haven't seen Andrew's latest docu yet and I just tried to get a copy of that book .. it's sold out everywhere , but I understand what your saying, I have that predicament with an ometepe curly atm , he is from the first uk sac n turns out he is male but the only person with an af is the original collector of my boys mum, Ray, so the only way I could breed him is breeding him back to his mum. I gave up on the mission .
I have also seen keepers breed females and then keep the slings to get males to breed back to the female. I understand a certain amount of inbreeding happens what I was worried about was long term effects if no new genes at all are introduced and only inbreeding is present like the dude on the vid implys he is doing. I assumed even in the wild occasionally new males would wonder past bringing new genes into the mix, (just like you stated when there are no available females on his tree,) which I assume is enough to stop severe genetic defects? Obviously in captivity they have little choice as they are only introduced when and with who we say they can.

And tbh when I think about it, we probably get those random slings that don't thrive despite siblings from the same sac thriving and them being kept exactly the same, because of the lack of genetics in the hobby. I suppose that's why breeders get the wc, more genetics to strengthen the pot .... you give me alot to think about @Marcostaco thank you for your imput

 

[Arachnophobphile]

There's a book called "Tarantulas: breeding experience and wildlife" by a great breeder and pioneer in the Hobby, Jean Michel Verdez. It touches on this subject. It states that tarantulas in some degree are immune to inbreeding, tons of species in the hobby were introduced and was established by only a handful of specimens. Meaning many species present in the tarantula hobby could be traced back from just a single breeding group. Thousands and thousands of specimens, countless generations traced back to a single breeding group.

Also in Andrew Smith's most recent documentary, he says that Poecilotheria in the wild live in clusters. In a single area, multiple trees each contain clusters of let's say Poecilotheria regalis. Now when a mature male arises from a cluster, if there isn't any available female of breeding size, he will simply move on to the nearest tree containing a different cluster to find a female.
Tarantulas do not travel that far in order to breed, why would they? When they could find a female in their area. So in someway, tarantulas in a single area are related.

Just because it's been done and T's nowadays can be traced back to a single breeding pair does not mean tarantulas are immune to inbreeding defects.

Every living thing on this planet is programed to avoid inbreeding for obvious reasons. Some animals might inbreed if a suitable mate is not found but it's not common. Some tarantulas might resort to it but that does not make them immune to health defects.

Come down to the U.S. when mature males are on the prowl for females. They most certainly do travel great distances to find a female.

If I make the decision to drop $100 or up on a difficult tarantula to find in the U.S. I definitely do not want a sling that was a result from inbreeding.

Alot of sling deaths are not always a mystery that can be attributed to dehydration or parasites. I believe there's two other factors rarely talked about. Breeders saving every sling instead of letting nature take it's course and inbreeding.

 

[TechnoGeek]

I'm thankful for genetic diversity.

It states that tarantulas in some degree are immune to inbreeding, tons of species in the hobby were introduced and was established by only a handful of specimens. Meaning many species present in the tarantula hobby could be traced back from just a single breeding group.

No animal is immune to inbreeding. In a nutshell, inbreeding is the result of nondominant genes that code for genetic defects meeting and becoming a phenotype. No animal is immune to this. It's a lottery, and one group might actually be enough given the size of tarantula broods, but if you start breeding siblings, then all bets are off.

Couldn't find any data about spiders, but here's a study that looked into the effects of inbreeding on fruit flies. Interestingly enough, many of the generic problems caused were behavioral:

Inbreeding-Driven Innate Behavioral Changes in Drosophila melanogaster

Drosophila melanogaster has long been used to demonstrate the effect of inbreeding, particularly in relation to reproductive fitness and stress tolerance. In comparison, less attention has been given to exploring the influence of inbreeding on the innate behavior of D. melanogaster. In this...

www.mdpi.com

.

Inbreeding includes mating between two closely related individuals. It is known to affect the biological fitness of plants and animals, including humans. Experiments conducted on Drosophila melanogaster, a common fruit fly, demonstrate adverse effects of inbreeding on reproductive fitness and stress tolerance.

And

Our findings showed abnormalities in locomotor and phototactic behaviors due to inbreeding. Likewise, changes
in aggression and courtship behavior with increasing levels of inbreeding were also observed.

 

[Charliemum]

I have seen ppl argue both sides now and I know I am on the side of genetic diversity, I think that's why when I found out that the only breeding female was Cupcakes mum I stopped looking and gave up. I think that's why this video bothered me so much when I watched it, I knew no animal should be put through this as it will have consequences, they may not be visible now but history and science teaches us that they will be eventually.
All t's may be traced back to that original pair but since then thousands of more t's have been taken from the wilds, that will have strengthened the original genetics I assume?
I think when I breed my t's (as it is a goal of mine) , I will be making sure non of my slings are bred bk to mum or sister from another sac , I will always look for an unrelated male and if I can't get one I won't be breeding that sp.

This thread has definitely helped make up my mind thank you all

No animal is immune to inbreeding. In a nutshell, inbreeding is the result of nondominant genes that code for genetic defects meeting and becoming a phenotype. No animal is immune to this. It's a lottery, and one group might actually be enough given the size of tarantula broods, but if you start breeding siblings, then all bets are off.

Couldn't find any data about spiders, but here's a study that looked into the effects of inbreeding on fruit flies. Interestingly enough, many of the generic problems caused were behavioral:

Inbreeding-Driven Innate Behavioral Changes in Drosophila melanogaster

Drosophila melanogaster has long been used to demonstrate the effect of inbreeding, particularly in relation to reproductive fitness and stress tolerance. In comparison, less attention has been given to exploring the influence of inbreeding on the innate behavior of D. melanogaster. In this...

www.mdpi.com

.



And

Wow that's mad, asbo flys ! See and ppl say you can just tip some of your current lot into a new pot and start a new colony from them makes me glad I just order a new pot every week!

I am starting to think 90% of what we are first told about keeping spiders isn't right at all. The more I deep delve on certain subjects the more I find wrong with what I was first told/read/watched. Forever a noob, there are never enough hours in the day to be anything else lol. No matter how much I try to learn there is always more, one of the best bits about this hobby imo apart from the spiders themselves of course

 

[Olan]

No animal is immune to inbreeding. In a nutshell, inbreeding is the result of nondominant genes that code for genetic defects meeting and becoming a phenotype. No animal is immune to this. It's a lottery, and one group might actually be enough given the size of tarantula broods, but if you start breeding siblings, then all bets are off.

Couldn't find any data about spiders, but here's a study that looked into the effects of inbreeding on fruit flies. Interestingly enough, many of the generic problems caused were behavioral:

Inbreeding-Driven Innate Behavioral Changes in Drosophila melanogaster

Drosophila melanogaster has long been used to demonstrate the effect of inbreeding, particularly in relation to reproductive fitness and stress tolerance. In comparison, less attention has been given to exploring the influence of inbreeding on the innate behavior of D. melanogaster. In this...

www.mdpi.com

.



And

that paper also references earlier papers: “it has been demonstrated that inbreeding in D. melanogaster reduces reproductive success by adversely affecting fertility, total egg count, larval survival, egg-to-adult viability and longevity of the flies”.
So not just behavioral issues, although that’s what they focussed on in that paper.

 

[TechnoGeek]

^ most definitely, you're right. I have not an ounce of doubt that the consequences of inbreeding go far beyond behavioral problems. Hence my earlier post:

Because science.. I'll explain it in details but this will be a long post.

Is it possible? Sure. Selective breeding isn't taboo, or niche, or even uncommon. It's a thing that happens in nature and captive populations. It's how we selected countless species of animals and plants for traits that are valuable and desirable for us. Even in nature, if being bigger helps your odds of surviving and finding a mate, then over several generations your entire species becomes bigger.

Now about your second question, why aren't more breeders doing it? For multiple reasons. One, tarantulas haven't beed kept as pets for long. Heck for a good chunk of their history in captivity we didn't bother with breeding them much, we just collected them from the wild. Establishing certain traits takes multiple generations of selective breeding.

Furthermore, captive breeding projects for the pet trade usually don't have the limitless populations to choose from that nature or industrial breeding projects for agricultural or scientific purposes have at their disposal. This increases the likelihood of inbreeding exponentially, and inbreeding causes devastating consequences to all living things. A good example of this is selecting dogs for size. Most dog breeders don't have sufficient budget to guarantee a diverse enough gene pool in which all individuals share the trait they're selecting for (IE size in this case). This usually means resorting to breeding related animals which has caused many dog breeds to develop horrific genetic defects from bulldogs having breathing issues, to great danes suffering from cardiac defects, to mastiffs with hip dysplasia etc.

Tarantulas are usually cheaper to keep and breed than dogs, by several orders of magnitude, so it might be easier to select them for size.. but I'd still be worried that people might choose to take a shortcut. I mean snakes are much cheaper to breed and raise than dogs and we already have ball python morphs that suffer from genetic problems so severe they can't even strike at their food without biting themselves.

I mean think about it, a hugely popular pet breeder might have a budget in the tens of thousands at best? Hundreds of thousands maybe?? This isn't even chump change compared to the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in funding that agricultural and scientific research gets from sponsors, corporations, and governments, to say nothing of the much bigger facilities they have at their disposal, and their superior understanding of science and genetics.. this is literally why domestic corn, grapes, and horses don't look like an Austrian Duke from the Habsburgs.

I think any breeder worth their salt should actively look to boost genetic diversity within his/her stock. Which is why choosing only the biggest individuals while assuring the broods you end up with remain healthy is usually pretty challenging for pet breeders. It can be done, we have managed to produce bigger houses, plants, cattle etc that don't die prematurely and live horribly but that sort of budget isn't something that would be within the reach of any pet breeder that I'm aware of.

 

[Mike Withrow]

Selective breeding for the best genes and possibly colors if that can even be a thing. I'm not talking about making some wild color tarantula I'm talking like bright bold colors like a said I'm not sure that can even be achieved.

I can understand every bit of that. But for size? And with a species that's already in n a huge mess and even for expert to be able to properly identify. Seems either person has the hook up of all hookups to have this project going on for so long