tarantula pricing

[Ratmosphere]

That's not true, they sell for more. You weren't ripped off @ 85$.

Would I be dumb to sell my 2.5" Avicularia versicolor and 3" Brachypelma smithi for 100 dollars?

 

[JJC]

As a novice T collector I have 2 thoughts...

1. The term "wholesale" is probably not accurate. In general, wholesale applies to selling to retailers, not end users. Once you market to the hobbyist, you are selling at "retail". You may be retailing at so called wholesale prices, but those prices are market driven and thus represent fair value based on supply and demand. In short, what the hobbyist is willing to pay for the T is its value, no matter how you classify that price.

Which leads me to my next point...

2. It seems to me that, in general, Ts are underpriced. In other words, I think that most hobbyists would pay more for a given T because they are relatively inexpensive to begin with. I say that as a reptile hobbyist who has been collecting for decades and very rarely has been able to procure a specimen for $10, $20, $50, or even $100. To be able to purchase a T for that amount (or less) is a significant advantage to growing one's collection. I definitely enjoy being able to add 3 or 4 Ts to my stable for little more than a C note. Assuming that a particular sling is as valuable to a T hobbyist as a ball python or bearded dragon or Panther chameleon is to their respective owners, I would say the issue is sheer volume. When presented with an egg sac of a hundred or more offspring, is there any choice but to sell low and avoid the costs and risks of long term care? Bottom line...is it harming the hobby to have cheap Ts or just making it tougher to be a for-profit breeder?

 

[viper69]

Would I be dumb to sell my 2.5" Avicularia versicolor and 3" Brachypelma smithi for 100 dollars?

Yes, unless you were desperate for money. Also important to know the genders, females worth much more.

 

[REEFSPIDER]

Yes, unless you were desperate for money. Also important to know the genders, females worth much more.

^ agreed I have been eyeing a female smithi at my LPS marked at 120. I can probably get them to give it to me for 100 and I'll feel happy with that. So you should feel happy for $85. As far as the versi goes the fact that it is a female pretty much makes it one of the most desirable and highest priced Avicularia sp.

 

[Ratmosphere]

Have a female Avicularia versicolor and a male Brachypelma smithi.

 

[Poec54]

It seems to me that, in general, Ts are underpriced. In other words, I think that most hobbyists would pay more for a given T because they are relatively inexpensive to begin with. I say that as a reptile hobbyist who has been collecting for decades and very rarely has been able to procure a specimen for $10, $20, $50, or even $100. To be able to purchase a T for that amount (or less) is a significant advantage to growing one's collection. I definitely enjoy being able to add 3 or 4 Ts to my stable for little more than a C note. Bottom line...is it harming the hobby to have cheap Ts or just making it tougher to be a for-profit breeder

Believe it or not, the entire world does not revolve around reptile pricing. I know, hard to believe. Have you seen European prices for the same spiders? Much less than the US, and the hobby's much bigger there: more people can afford to own tarantulas. What a concept! 'Harming the hobby'? How? How does competition and availability hurt the hobby? Should the hobby in any country be controlled by a handful of dealers with small supplies of spiders & high prices? Of course any seller would love that situation, but it's never going to last as long as the people they're selling to are able to reproduce those animals (or plants). There's no point in anyone moaning about the old days. Almost all of us here today have tarantulas because prices have come down from what they originally were. That's a bad thing?

You're thrilled to be able to buy 3 or 4 slings for 'little more than $100'; what if that dealer paid a breeder $7 each for them? Just as thrilled? Or would you rather buy them from someone who charged half as much as the other guy? That's how the free market works. Initial monopolies give way to competition and then the market determines the real price. Lower European prices mean far more total money in tarantulas there, which provides the incentive for them to travel and collect new species, and then learn about the native climates so that they can duplicate the natural breeding triggers. Americans aren't doing much of that; they'd rather buy cheap slings from Europe and mark them up. We're still dependent on Europe for a significant number of our slings and almost all of our new species. What if Europe copied the American model, and expected someone else to do the work? How many species would be in the hobby and what would they cost?

I've been in the hobby over 40 years. From it's beginning in the late 1960's to the 1990's, the hobby was w/c adults that almost no one bothered to breed. But there weren't many species, as it's difficult to get reliable exporters in remote third world countries. Then countries began shutting down their animal exports, and it looked like the tarantula hobby might start winding down. Europe figured out it was better to collect small batches of spiders from the wild and reproduce them in captivity. They were able to ship their CBB slings all over the world at reasonable prices because they were able to produce so many. That allowed the hobby to explode to what it is today. We have Europe to thank. Their approach of large scale breeding and low prices have brought in ample money for them to travel and procure new species, and to keep repeating the process. So please, explain to me how low prices, competition, and availability have harmed the hobby? That is the hobby today.

 

[Vanessa]

Their approach of large scale breeding and low prices have brought in ample money for them to travel and procure new species, and to keep repeating the process. So please, explain to me how low prices, competition, and availability have harmed the hobby? That is the hobby today.

It is far less expensive for Europeans to move around than it is for North Americans. Travel expenses are a fraction of what they cost here. You cannot compare the two. You don't need to make much money to be able to travel around Europe. It is much different here. Ample money for them to travel is a couple of hundred dollars and that isn't getting you far in North America. It's not even going to get you to another country and barely gets you to another state. You make it sound like tarantula money is funding all these exotic vacations and it isn't like that at all.
Availability of what? We have tons of availability of a handful of species. Species that were inexpensive to begin with and were easily bred by new comers to the hobby with no experience at all. We have lots of LP's and OBT's available - too bad if that isn't what you want to add to your collection.
If you want an older female - you're not dealing with dealers anymore for those tarantulas so dealers aren't even factoring into the equation anymore. You're dealing with other people in the hobby because dealers aren't keeping hundreds of spiderlings until they're adults. So, you are going to pay what the individual wants for that tarantula and it has nothing to do with the hobby on a whole and will not reflect a standard pricing guideline. Their prices are going to reflect how much time they've spent, how many people are in the hobby in their immediate vicinity, and how desperate they are to get rid of them. I've bought sub-adult females for less than half of what they are worth because the person needed them gone immediately and I was available. Another person was selling the same tarantulas for more than four times what I paid for mine because they were more interested in making money and less interested in getting rid of the tarantula asap. Again, the prices driven by those personal situations do not reflect a hobby on a whole.
Why don't we have more adults being moved around? Because to most people tarantulas are a novelty and the novelty wears off very quickly for most. Because the vast majority of tarantulas don't make it beyond a couple of years because people can't care for them, and don't want to care for them, and they are dead before they reach sub-adulthood. That is not in the best interest of the animals and is a horrible reflection of the hobby on a whole.
Large scale breeding in North America amounts to a bunch of new people breeding already readily available tarantulas and then giving them away because they aren't going to make a living off them and are too busy working. What you end up with is a handful of the same species for dirt cheap and a bunch of Frankenspiders because people don't have a clue what they're doing. Healthy competition is not what happens when a bunch of people who don't know what they're doing throw a couple of animals together and get hundreds of offspring. That's just biology and nothing more. And that is very harmful to the hobby in my books no matter how low it keeps the prices.
That is what the hobby amounts to today and you aren't going to turn back the clock and change that. If you want things to be different - support those breeders who are going to make a difference and not those who are a detriment to the hobby overall.

 

[Matabuey]

It is far less expensive for Europeans to move around than it is for North Americans. Travel expenses are a fraction of what they cost here. You cannot compare the two.

Er no it's not.

Poec was referring to European breeders making enough money to go to places like Thailand to obtain new species, pretty sure you completely misunderstood him. If you didn't, well... the flight cost from NY to Bangkok is practically the same as London to Bangkok.

Have you even been to Europe before? In general our travel expenses are far higher than anywhere in North America for comparative distances, due to fuel prices (and generally higher taxes). Which are then relayed on to us. Just taking into account fuel prices, we pay around 2 to 4 times more for fuel than you guys in NA.

 

[John Apple]

imagine if we paid for the car before it went to the showroom or lot.....
imagine if we paid for food before it went to the grocery store.....
imagine if we paid for gas before it was stepped on by many companies....
imagine if we paid for the cost of materials in building a house....
what would happen.....chaos ....real simple....
imagine if we paid 5 bucks for a versicolor sling or P. lugardi sling or better yet 35 for a P.met.....

 

[Poec54]

imagine if we paid 5 bucks for a versicolor sling or P. lugardi sling or better yet 35 for a P.met.....

Prices are determined by supply and demand. If enough of any species (or product) is available, prices will drop until they level off at some point. That's how the economy works, there's no reason to expect it to be any different with spiders. P metallica were initially $400, and Kelly Swift took a big financial risk to buy the first ones imported into the US, hoping he could raise them up and get fertile sacs. It was a gamble, there's no guarantee with those things. He could have lost his whole investment. Fortunately, it worked out and he was able to sell his slings to other collectors, who in turn did the same thing. It's happened many times since then and P metallica no longer a $400 spider. That price is history now. When there's thousands of metallica slings produced every year by breeders across the country, and increasing with more adult females maturing every year, the price will keep falling. Supply and demand. Who knows where it will end up. Maybe it'll stabilize at $50 or $35. Whatever the final price is, that's what they're worth. Is that species 'ruined' because more people can afford it?

Some reptile people have a hard time reorienting their thinking when it comes to spiders. Yes, most tarantulas are cheaper than most reptiles. With reptiles, people tend to think they're getting more animal for their money with a 5 foot snake versus a 5 inch spider. It's also not an apples-to-apples comparison because of the unique nature of spider reproduction, with males being short-lived and good for only one breeding season. You can't buy a pair and breed them for years. Unless you manipulate their growth, you can't even breed them once. If you buy a $100 sling, it could die of old age in 2 years if it's a tropical male, and most people don't have an adult female in waiting, or have any idea how to breed them if they did. A certain percentage of spiders die in molt, which is not an issue with reptiles. While sex ratios vary per species, overall I've had about 60-65% males in the slings/juveniles I've raised up. You may have to buy 3 slings of a species to get a female. There's some hurdles to cross in buying a sling and getting an adult female. These things impact how much people are going to pay for tarantulas. It's very easy to spend a lot of money and have little to show for it. I knew a guy that had bought 100 slings, each one a different species. Very proud of his collection. A few years later the males had died of old age and he had 30 females left. That's a lot of time and money to have 70% of your investment die off.

 

[Trenor]

imagine if we paid for the car before it went to the showroom or lot.....
imagine if we paid for food before it went to the grocery store.....
imagine if we paid for gas before it was stepped on by many companies....
imagine if we paid for the cost of materials in building a house....
what would happen.....chaos ....real simple....
imagine if we paid 5 bucks for a versicolor sling or P. lugardi sling or better yet 35 for a P.met.....

There are tons of discount stores for all these things. I know places where I can get building supplies at very close to wholesale prices. How do you think Walmart works? It undercuts every old store Mom and Pop place in town. It's the same way with your tarantula analogy. The undercut complaint is the same thing people said about Walmart for decades. Markets that don't shift in pricing when supply is high are artificially controlled to make them that way.

IMO reptile breeders are able to get away with crazy prices because of the crazy expenses that are needed to get into breeding. It makes it really expensive for people to get started so the prices stay high.

With tarantulas, you can only throw out so many slings before others start breeding them too. When there is more supply than demand then you find yourself where we are now.

I personally don't feel this is a bad thing.

 

[Poec54]

IMO reptile breeders are able to get away with crazy prices because of the crazy expenses that are needed to get into breeding. It makes it really expensive for people to get started so the prices stay high.

+1. Look at what it costs in food to get a baby snake up to breeding size. They have to charge a lot when they finally breed it, just to break even. One of the benefits of owning tarantulas is food is cheap. Hatch out a sac and sell it to a dealer at wholesale, and you may be able to use that to feed the rest of your spiders for years. I buy crickets by the thousand, for less than 2 cents each. I can feed an adult tarantula well for a couple dollars a year.

 

[Thistles]

Would I be dumb to sell my 2.5" Avicularia versicolor and 3" Brachypelma smithi for 100 dollars?

Yes. That female versi is worth the $100 alone. The male Brachy, maybe $40?

Tarantula pricing, eh? As a hobbyist, I like lower prices because they mean I can expand my collection faster. As a small-time breeder, they don't hurt me. I just breed to finance my habit and because I want to see more of these animals available captive bred and cheap on this side of the Atlantic.

Here's the downside I see. A lot of the species we love are primarily CB in Europe right now. Some species aren't available in the US yet. The problem with lower pricing is that it might push people who only import out of business. If all of our American importers find it to be too much trouble with not enough pay off, there is the risk of making it very difficult and unusual to obtain fresh stock from abroad. Keep in mind that people who import from Europe aren't just paying the breeder the $7 per sling. They also have to pay all of the importation fees and licensing... assuming they're on the level. I know of plenty who aren't, and they don't have my sympathy. I want them out of business. The problem is, their cheating makes them more competitive with lower pricing and less likely to suffer than honest sellers. Low prices for animals that aren't established here also encourage novice hobbyists without the desire or ability to breed to buy them. This makes it harder for the species to be established in the hobby.

Price fluctuation and drop is a natural part of any market. As things become more commonly available, prices drop. Eventually things settle in to their equilibrium price. Look at Avicularia versicolor. This species has been available for ages and the price has remained relatively stable. The animal has found the equilibrium price where supply and demand balance out and people are paying what they actually believe the animal is worth. This will eventually happen with all species. This will happen to things like Thrigmopoeus psychedelicus, in my opinion. It's a pretty spider, but not a few hundred dollars worth of pretty. It's just expensive now because it's uncommon and new and the few who have imported them have hiked the prices. Once people start breeding them regularly, they'll probably drop to $40 per sling.

I guess to sum up, I'm happy that prices are lower. I don't like that a few importers make an obscene mark up on things they paid little for, but I'm grateful to the legitimate ones for bringing in fresh stock. I wish that people who don't intend to breed would not buy new stuff just because it's shiny and new and they have to have it first. How do we reconcile all of this? Encourage captive breeding, boycott sellers who brown box, give our business to people who import legitimately or breed their own stock, and don't give in to absurd hype over new things just because they're new. Let breeders invest in the new animals so we can ensure a steady supply here for years to come, which will bring the prices down. I don't need Theraphosinae sp. Panama today. I don't deserve it, frankly. I'll get mine when they're established in the hobby and the prices have dropped a bit.

Sorry that was so rambling. I was just thinking aloud.

 

[sschind]

imagine if we paid for the car before it went to the showroom or lot.....
imagine if we paid for food before it went to the grocery store.....
imagine if we paid for gas before it was stepped on by many companies....
imagine if we paid for the cost of materials in building a house....
what would happen.....chaos ....real simple....
imagine if we paid 5 bucks for a versicolor sling or P. lugardi sling or better yet 35 for a P.met.....

Imagine all the people...


sorry I got caught up in the moment.

 

[Vanessa]

All this talk about what they're 'worth' always leaves a bad taste in my mouth because they are living beings. I know that when someone only paid $10 for them then it isn't a big deal if they kill them with neglect... as opposed to the one they paid $60 for. That is just sad and pathetic and it is rampant in the hobby. When people are paying almost nothing for them - their value is also going to be almost nothing. Already people are reluctant to spend even the bare minimum on their homes and care and, the less they pay for them, the more that will happen. Why spend $30 on supplies when the spider only cost $5? It happens with lots of animals already and we can add inverts to that list.
The less they cost - the less value they have to the person buying them.

 

[Thistles]

All this talk about what they're 'worth' always leaves a bad taste in my mouth because they are living beings. I know that when someone only paid $10 for them then it isn't a big deal if they kill them with neglect... as opposed to the one they paid $60 for. That is just sad and pathetic and it is rampant in the hobby. When people are paying almost nothing for them - their value is also going to be almost nothing. Already people are reluctant to spend even the bare minimum on their homes and care and, the less they pay for them, the more that will happen. Why spend $30 on supplies when the spider only cost $5? It happens with lots of animals already and we can add inverts to that list.
The less they cost - the less value they have to the person buying them.

I understand what you're saying better than most. I've struggled with my involvement in a hobby that treats living creatures as commodities, and had trouble reconciling it with my other beliefs about animal rights. I think you're vegan, right? I imagine you have similar struggles.

I encounter this all the time. Someone wins a tiny turtle or a gold fish at a carnival, then he doesn't want to fork out the money for the necessary set up. Someone's kids find a toad and they refuse to pay for crickets to feed the toad. A mom lets her kids keep the snake they caught, but won't pay for a heat lamp for the "free" snake. It makes me sick. It isn't right. It's how the world works.

 

[Vanessa]

It's how the world works.

I don't have a defeatist attitude and I never will. Defeatist attitudes have never made the world better for anyone and never will.
And I just don't do the apathy thing. It isn't part of who I am.

 

[Thistles]

I don't have a defeatist attitude and I never will. Defeatist attitudes never have made the world better for anyone and never will.
And I just don't do the apathy thing. It isn't part of who I am.

Do I seem apathetic? Did I suggest that it was okay? That is how it is, though. What's your solution? That we hike prices for tarantulas to make people care about them more? The fact is that there is a market for tarantulas, and that market determines their price. You could say the same of people. There is a market for people. You could put a price on me. I think you're trying to make one meaning of the word "worth" do double duty when that isn't how it's meant at all. There is no solution in semantics. We need to get people to understand that these animals have as much of a right life and comfort as humans. That doesn't come from pricing.

 

[Trenor]

Here's the downside I see. A lot of the species we love are primarily CB in Europe right now. Some species aren't available in the US yet. The problem with lower pricing is that it might push people who only import out of business. If all of our American importers find it to be too much trouble with not enough pay off, there is the risk of making it very difficult and unusual to obtain fresh stock from abroad.

I agree that early prices are fair for someone trying to recoup/make a profit off the risk they took to bring in new species and breed them.

The rest isn't pointed at the above quote. I just didn't want to start a new post.

I don't feel that the price the new species should stay at the high margin price. Once the risk is rewarded then it is fair to assume the price will go down to a more realistic level. I feel this is motivation for the importers as well. If bringing in one new species and breeding that species lead to a high priced tarantula forever then there would be less motivation for them to take any new risks. Why bother when you already have a cash cow sitting in your lap?

I'm all for people being able to get a return on their investments. Can anyone honestly say Kelly Swift didn't make out good on the P.metallica Ts he risked importing and breeding? Should everyone else breeding them later make as much as he did? Did they take the risk he did? How is a single person breeding P.metallicas later any different than a breeder that came along after Kelly? They took no more risk yet they bemoan the lower cost and the devaluing of the tarantula.

Does a lower price devalue the tarantula? IMO it doesn't. I enjoy my 10 dollar slings as much as I do some I paid 90 for.

All this talk about what they're 'worth' always leaves a bad taste in my mouth because they are living beings. I know that when someone only paid $10 for them then it isn't a big deal if they kill them with neglect... as opposed to the one they paid $60 for. That is just sad and pathetic and it is rampant in the hobby. When people are paying almost nothing for them - their value is also going to be almost nothing. Already people are reluctant to spend even the bare minimum on their homes and care and, the less they pay for them, the more that will happen. Why spend $30 on supplies when the spider only cost $5? It happens with lots of animals already and we can add inverts to that list.
The less they cost - the less value they have to the person buying them.

I don't think they are using 'what it's worth' like you are. They are speaking about a fair price for an item in a market not what is the value of life. If we all had to pay what life is worth in the philosophical sense I doubt anyone would own any living thing.

I can understand where you are coming from but I feel that people's value for life has little to do with a price tag. When we were kids we caught lizards and tadpoles and well just about anything else. We cared for them not because they were worth a lot but because we were fascinated with life and learning about it. We took care of all our animals as best as we were able. Regardless of how much someone pays for any pet if they do not value life, the price tag doesn't make much difference.

I've seen people pay hundreds of dollars for a dog and place it in horrid living conditions. Again, the price tag made very little difference in deciding the animals worth.

If people can't even value other humans what makes people think it would be different for other animals.

 

[Vanessa]

I'm not here to convince anyone to think like I do or live like I do. I take what I have seen, and experienced, within my lifetime and I live my life accordingly - 'be the change you wish to see in the world' and all that. That is my choice and I live each and every day accordingly. I have never, and will never, live with the attitude that things are just the way they are and they aren't going to change, so why bother even trying. Status quo has never been a concept I am comfortable with.
I don't think tarantulas should be cheaper than they are today. I don't think that someone should ever be able to purchase a tarantula for $5, for $10, or even $25. The more someone has to pay - the less we'll see members here having Chernobyl sized meltdowns on others for killing their tarantulas because there will be less tarantulas dying. We won't have 20+ pages of people complaining bitterly about PetCo selling tarantulas, based on the buyers not being equipped with the correct information, when the truth is that sellers within the hobby don't check on 90% of who they sell to and don't care about that either.
If you have no problem with them selling for less than a cup of coffee at Starbucks, then so be it. I don't think like that and I never will and you have even less likelihood of changing my mind than I have of changing yours.