solifugids actually lives longer than we think

[bistrobob85]

Thanks for making this a sticky, thats a really interesting thread . Did i mention that i was never interested in solifugids before i read it?

phil.

 

[Stylopidae]

Thanks for making this a sticky, thats a really interesting thread . Did i mention that i was never interested in solifugids before i read it?

phil.

I just PM'ed Debby and Scott and asked. Every time I wanted to dig it up, I couldn't find it. I think this thread has gone a long way in helping our understanding of these creatures. Maybe one day, they'll be a tarantula alternitave.

 

[Wade]

Good to see this thread resurrected!

Punzo's book is great, and truly the definitive work on the subject. Although I'd recomend it also, be forewarned: it's pricey! When it came out, I think it was $139, and last time I saw it listed it ws $150! I was able to talk the nature center where I work into buying it, but it was way out of reach for the personal library. Of course, if had a better paying job than the nature cebter then maybe I could afford it.

Anyway, I think that the deli cup method is possibly a very viable method of rearing them. We can discuss cuelty etc, but in light of the fact that these are VERY high-stress animals by all accounts, that in fact drop dead from stress, suggests to me that they are at least content in the cups. It is not difficult to recognize a stressed solifugue! However, I do not think it is likely to have them reproduce in cups, so while it might be a possible method of getting them to adulthood, after that something else will be needed.

I'd like to add annother bit of husbandry that may or may not be useful in the future culture of these things. I recently purchsed two (large yellow ones of Egyptian origin, presumabley Galeodes) of these, one of which appears to be "gravid" (if that is an accepable term with these!). I wanted to keep in mind Punzo's (and Randolphs!) information regarding cage size, but at the same time wanted to be sure that there'd be enough space to allow for burrowing. I chose two medium-sized plastic "critter keeper" type cages, filled about halfway with a sand/paver base mix. various pieves of flat stones and cork bark are burried within to provide burrow opprotunities, as well as a piece of cork on the top to have surface shelter.

I then wrapped black plastic (taped in place) around the terrariums. I did this to make the whole cage darker and more secure, reasoning that transparent sides might be a stress factor. I considered using an opaque container to begin with, but then I wouldn't be able to peek inside at all.

I have not had them long enough to know if this method extends the lifespan or if I will be successful in getting and rearing eggs. However, I can say that it has resulted in calmer animals. There is no spastic running, no panicked digging, in fact they seem content to hide out under the surface hide rather than in a burrow, and at night can be observed hanging out in the open. In fact, in these set ups they are rather sedate animals, at least until prey is introduced!

On the humidity issue, my guess would be that the ideal cage would be deep with substrate that is somewhat moist at the bottom, but kept dry at top. Getting this to happen without developing mold problems will be the challenge, but can no doubt be done.

Wade

 

[danread]

One way of getting round spending $150 on the book is to use google book search http://books.google.com/. It's excellent for referencing, although if you want to read the whole book, it would be a lot easier to buy it, since you can only read three pages around each search.

If you search for the Biology of Camel spiders, there is a limited preview online, although it seems to have quite a lot of pages uploaded.

Cheers,

 

[Brian S]

I'm not going anywhere near the psychological issues either. I understand that it will show through eating habits and whatnot if the creature is stressed. And that's unfortunate for your friend that he doesn't live in an area where more space is available, but that shouldn't mean that the insects should have to suffer.

And how do you know they are suffereing? Inverts are way different from us. If fed well they will often stay in one place for a loong time.

It just doesn't seem right to me to keep the solifugid in such a small container. I obviously won't have any affect on what your friend's actions will be, it's just my opinion. They obviously don't survive in that small of an area in the wild. Anyway, this is just how I feel about it.

-Nick

Again, How do you know this has such a negative effect on them? Inverts dont feel emotions like we do.

 

[lucanidae]

It isn't about the 'feelings' of the animals. When you take an animal from the wild it is generally considered appropriate to attempt to recreate to the best of your ability its natural habitat. Captive animals tend to survive and thrive more often this way. That is why people are so concerned about temperature/humidity requirements and substrate type. I find that the best aquariums and zoos are the ones who do the best job of recreating naturalistic environments. I know putting a tarantula or any other invert in a glass box is far from its natural environment, but the point is to attempt to do as much as possible. It is easy to take the extra steps with solfugids to try to create a more natural environment where they can burrow to solve the stress problem; putting them in a small delicup is a shortcut that detracts from the overall quality of care for the animal.

If people aren't willing to get a 2.5 gallon tank and mix some soil toghether to try to keep solfugids alive in captivity, then they shouldn't be removing them from the wild.

 

[Stylopidae]

OK, guys: take your sphincter necklaces off. NOW.

This bug is obviously NOT suffering. It's lived a great deal longer than any other solfugid in captivity being cared for in the standard way. It's well fed and assuming it is still alive it has lived SIX TIMES LONGER THAN THE NORMAL STANDARD.

How can you think possibly think it's suffering? It lives in a BURROW about the SAME SIZE in the wild.

Randolf is here trying to show us how to actually care for these things, citing an amazing example of success with these bugs and here you guys are, hassling him about ethics that simply DON'T APPLY.

Wake up.

 

[Brian S]

If people aren't willing to get a 2.5 gallon tank and mix some soil toghether to try to keep solfugids alive in captivity, then they shouldn't be removing them from the wild.

From what I have read right here that hasnt been working. Everyone that tries to put them in a big tank are the ones that are having the frequent deaths. You need to keep an open mind

 

[Randolph XX()]

chill out every one, there will always be a smart A@s somewhere try to prove himself

David Suzuki said there was a guy from a conference raised his hand saying green house effects cause global cooling and it is actually good for the world, global warming is just a big hoax

Some hobbyists just think they are "saving" wc aimals from suffering in pet shop by purchasing them and just get pissed of while they saw their animals are used as feeders somewhere else
but wat is the real suffering to a species? import thousands of them from the wild each year and just lay straight up then die in your own hand, fair to call that ethical?
i think i am kinda out of the topic
cheers anyway

 

[lucanidae]

From what I have read right here that hasnt been working. Everyone that tries to put them in a big tank are the ones that are having the frequent deaths. You need to keep an open mind

It's working for Fred Punzo, the guy who wrote the book on sofulgids. Using his specs that's about the size tank you would need for some of the medium sized species. For years he's been repeatedly successful in breeding them in captivity, the greatest sign of healthy well maintained animals.

This bug is obviously NOT suffering.

I didn't say anything about sufferring, I opended my post by saying it wasn't going to be about the animals 'feelings'.

It's lived a great deal longer than any other solfugid in captivity being cared for in the standard way. It's well fed and assuming it is still alive it has lived SIX TIMES LONGER THAN THE NORMAL STANDARD.

What exactly is the standard way in this hobby? I don't think I've see anyone standardizing substrate types or tank size or temperature. The lack of a standard is the problem.

How can you think possibly think it's suffering? It lives in a BURROW about the SAME SIZE in the wild

Solfugid burrows are actually quite extensive in the wild, according to The Biology of Camel Spiders. The book contains several drawings of all different types of solfugid burrows. If you can find a better source that shows that their burrows are small please post it.

@Randolph

I hope you know I'm not attacking you. I think it is great that your friend has been able to keep one alive for so long, :worship: :clap: :worship: and thankyou for bringing it up. I just think that there is a better system to keeping these alive in captivity, one that has been tested for many years, published, and allows for the animals to make their own burrows.

My last post described why it isn't about the animal's 'feelings', but the overall point behind keeping exotics animals, attempting to recreate their home in yours.

 

[Stylopidae]

It's working for Fred Punzo, the guy who wrote the book on sofulgids. Using his specs that's about the size tank you would need for some of the medium sized species. For years he's been repeatedly successful in breeding them in captivity, the greatest sign of healthy well maintained animals.



I didn't say anything about sufferring, I opended my post by saying it wasn't going to be about the animals 'feelings'.



What exactly is the standard way in this hobby? I don't think I've see anyone standardizing substrate types or tank size or temperature. The lack of a standard is the problem.



Solfugid burrows are actually quite extensive in the wild, according to The Biology of Camel Spiders. The book contains several drawings of all different types of solfugid burrows. If you can find a better source that shows that their burrows are small please post it.

@Randolph

I hope you know I'm not attacking you. I think it is great that your friend has been able to keep one alive for so long, :worship: :clap: :worship: and thankyou for bringing it up. I just think that there is a better system to keeping these alive in captivity, one that has been tested for many years, published, and allows for the animals to make their own burrows.

My last post described why it isn't about the animal's 'feelings', but the overall point behind keeping exotics animals, attempting to recreate their home in yours.

My post wasn't aimed at you at all, stag man

However, the average lifespan in captivity seems to be about six months. The standard conventional wisdom is lots of food, lots of space which kills them off fairly quickly.

Solfigud burrows may be extensive in the wild, but they are still narrow which is KEY in keeping these in captivity due to the need to make the bug think it's in close quarters.

 

[bistrobob85]

You know what, guys, i'm REALLY considering to start a ''test group'' of solifugids in 2.5 gallon tanks with lots of soil and not that much heat and not that much food... I'd try to get hold of a few young ones and i'd try to keep them alive and healthy as long as possible... Sadly enough, i dont have any solifugids right now, but i have room for sure!!!! I'd encourage other people to try it too so that we can actually figure out how do to it and write a document about it...

phil.

 

[JSN]

I was going to do something similar, but its been raining for a while, so my chances are slim of catching any of these guys...when I do, you guys will hear about it, and I will post everything thing I can...

 

[Wade]

Attempting to set a standard by which these animals should be kept, when so little is understood about their husbandry needs, is pointless and possibly even detrimental to their future in arachnoculture. We really don't know what they need. While life in a deli cup may not seem desireable to me, this experiment suggests very interesting possibilities regarding their husbandry.

Punzo's book is a great reference for anyone interested in solifuges, but it isn't the end-all, be-all and I doubt he intended it to be. First of all, the caging he describes isn't very big, he recomends 6X the BODY length of the animal for cage length, which for most NA species is going to be 6 inches or less! Still bigger than a cup, but hardly the roomy cages that have often been advocated. He even admits that luck was part of his success.


Also, he only discusses ONE species in his husbandry section, Eremobates marthoni. Expecting the husbandry information for this one North American species to apply to all is akin to expecting all tarantulas to have the same care needs as Aphonopelma chalcodes.

I also don't think that Punzo was saying that the exact specifications he used are what is required, rather he is sharing what has worked for him. You cant read techincal works like this one (the husbandry section is only one chapter) as you would a care sheet or pet care book. Some of what he describes sound more like laboratory processes than real husbandry requirements. For example, he says the substrate was changed once a week to aoid contamination! I tend to doubt this is really needed, more likely he is describing, in detail, everything he did.
Clearly there is more room for experimentation here. While I don't think that keeping them in cramped cups represents the future of these animals in captivity, it does give us valuable clues. For starters, it suggest that tactile closeness is a more important factor than a visual barrier when it comes to stress. In other words, a snug-fitting hide may be more desireable than a roomy one. It also tells us that tropical species (which are poorly studied) may have a much longer lifespan than NA species which we tend to think of as annual in duration.

Anyway, I hate to see an interesting topic descend into a unresolvable debate. We could go back and forth about it forever, but it gets us no closer to understanding the needs of these animals.

Wade

 

[lucanidae]

Punzo's book is a great reference for anyone interested in solifuges, but it isn't the end-all, be-all and I doubt he intended it to be. First of all, the caging he describes isn't very big, he recomends 6X the BODY length of the animal for cage length, which for most NA species is going to be 6 inches or less! Still bigger than a cup, but hardly the roomy cages that have often been advocated. He even admits that luck was part of his success.

I'll admit the book's husbandry section is short compared to the rest of the few hundred pages, but unfortunatley it is about the only real published work about successful long term husbandry with a large sample size. The rest of the book however, is quite an impressive in-depth reference, by far the best written to date.

As for the size of the cage, 6 times the body length worked: if proper burrows can be established, perhaps larger lengths can work as well.

Expecting the husbandry information for this one North American species to apply to all is akin to expecting all tarantulas to have the same care needs as Aphonopelma chalcodes.

Exactly. And having a sample size of one solfugid of one species survive in a deli-cup is no reason to think we should all buy solfuids and house them in deli-cups; expecting them to live out full healthy lives.

I also don't think that Punzo was saying that the exact specifications he used are what is required, rather he is sharing what has worked for him.

Right! But what worked for him can work for us too. It worked for him on a fairly large scale, so I think it is a good starting place.

I completely agree with you, a LOT more needs to be learned about the captive husbandry of these animals. But, I still think that Punzo's book is the best starting place we have. Putting an animal that in the wild is seen running across the desert at full speed in a deli-cup where it can barley turn around and can't dig it's own burrow just so we can have it in our home just dosen't seem right.

 

[rattler_mt]

an interesting note on tunneling(please keep in mind i have not attempted to keep these guys long term) we have a small(2.5-3cm) species here in the frozen north. i have caught a few dozen of them over the years and generally turned them loose after a short time. untill this thread i was not aware they made tunnels. most that i captured were put in small containers(generally small glass jars) with just a lil bit of dirt, basically enough to cover the bottom and give them traction. a few millimeters at most. it never failed, it would be up and running around when i went to bed and the next morning it would be gone and i would panic. what i found out is that these guys, if there isnt enough soil to burrow they will build............well...........an "igloo"? out of the dirt to hide in im not sure if they are using saliva or what to hold the dirt together. i sat and watched one actually build one a few years after the first "disappearance". it dug a small depresion down to the glass and slowly started building walls from the glass up around it and over the top of it basically with just enough room for it to turn around in. was neat to watch. just a bit of info i thought might be of interest

 

[lucanidae]

Cool! Would be excellent if you could catch another and see what happend if you gave them more substrate to burrow in.

 

[rattler_mt]

plan on it. unfortuantly ive never been very good at finding them reliably. one year i found a half dozen. once i caught 5 of them over a course of 5 nights in a row, for some reason they were attracted to my sister and i just had to wait for a scream in the middle of the night, all different individuals cause i kept them all for about a month. other years i dont find any. i dont have a lot to do this week so im headed out to do some shooting and flipping boards and rocks and see what i can find. the main place i have always found them though is basements with about 3/4 of the total ive caught being seen racing across the cement where i catch them with a cup. ive found a dozen or so flipping rocks over the years. if they tunnel that would be why i have a hard time finding them outside of the basement of my parents house. oddly enough the 5 that ran across my sister happened in the living room on the main floor.

 

[Herp13]

I have an itching question, what does like 15-20c convert to in Ferenhieght? I really like them and just wanted to know the temperature that he succesfully hibernated them in

 

[Raqua]

I have an itching question, what does like 15-20c convert to in Ferenhieght? I really like them and just wanted to know the temperature that he succesfully hibernated them in

Roughly 50-60 F