solifugids actually lives longer than we think

[Randolph XX()]

well, He doesn't live in AZ, instead, he lives in Taiwan where the space is quite limited to have or even breed inverts privately
besides, he is an experienced hobbyist, and i can assure u all his animals live pretty well, at least eat, moult, breed well

and don't get started with the "Psychological" perspective of inverts
if they are stressed out, they won't eat, moult, or even breed that well

if he house all 300-500 inverts each in 10 gallon tanks, it will be awfully cruel to him

besides
i havn't heard any one who keeps solifugids in a bigger tanks live longer than his, so wat do u say?

 

[zinto]

well, He doesn't live in AZ, instead, he lives in Taiwan where the space is quite limited to have or even breed inverts privately
besides, he is an experienced hobbyist, and i can assure u all his animals live pretty well, at least eat, moult, breed well

and don't get started with the "Psychological" perspective of inverts
if they are stressed out, they won't eat, moult, or even breed that well

if he house all 300-500 inverts each in 10 gallon tanks, it will be awfully cruel to him

besides
i havn't heard any one who keeps solifugids in a bigger tanks live longer than his, so wat do u say?

You could survive in a 6x10ft area, doesn't mean you'd like to. I haven't heard of anyone keeping solifugids in larger tanks living longer either, but maybe that just means they shouldn't be kept. I think it'd be awesome to have one of those as a pet, but since I haven't really seen any successful ways of keeping them, I'm not going to have one.

I'm not going anywhere near the psychological issues either. I understand that it will show through eating habits and whatnot if the creature is stressed. And that's unfortunate for your friend that he doesn't live in an area where more space is available, but that shouldn't mean that the insects should have to suffer.

It just doesn't seem right to me to keep the solifugid in such a small container. I obviously won't have any affect on what your friend's actions will be, it's just my opinion. They obviously don't survive in that small of an area in the wild. Anyway, this is just how I feel about it.

-Nick

 

[ShadowSpectrum]

Here's my theory on Randolph's friend's setup. With an enclosure that small, the scorp, solifugid, etc, probably treats it's whole enclosure as it's hide or retreat. Inverts don't really leave their retreat other than to hunt and breed. But if food, water, breeding partners, and everything else it would ever need are all provided, it really has no reason to leave its retreat. If the invert had alot more open space in the tank, without a proper hide, than that could be a problem. I would think the animals are thriving if they are giving birth in those enclosures.

Anyways, interesting stuff Randolph. I want to get some solifugids after reading this now

 

[Randolph XX()]

well input shadow
i don't really know how to explain all this to a guy who thinks he can tuck me into a 6 by 10 box.....

 

[Steven Gielis]

I can tell that many Solifugae species hibernate during the colder season in their natural habitat. As a student at the university I found some rare but good information of Solifugae in the wild. Overfeeding can kill these animals. Because they have no system to warn them as they eat to much. In the desert you have to eat what you can get! I had also some succes with solifugae. I was able to let them mate an had also eggs and small larvae wich where unable to move. I had more than 70 eggs.Unfortunantly it went bad at the molting. Because the eggs are normally kept in the tunnelsystem of the mother, they hatch under very specific parameters of humidity and heat. Now I am making a special tank for them so I can reproduce the parameters.
Some pictures:

the eggs + hatching

The larvae (non moving)

Larvae, moving, they didn't survive this stadium

male

female with eggs

 

[zinto]

well input shadow
i don't really know how to explain all this to a guy who thinks he can tuck me into a 6 by 10 box.....

It's called "putting yourself in their shoes" also known as an example that puts it on a more personal level....

I also have a question regarding ShadowSpectrum's post: What you're saying does make some sense, but do you think that it would never leave it's hide? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm actually asking because I don't know how they'd act. If everything was provided in its hide, would it just stay there? Thanks for the input.
-Nick

 

[lucanidae]

I think it'd be awesome to have one of those as a pet, but since I haven't really seen any successful ways of keeping them, I'm not going to have one.

We've known for years that solfugids hibernate and live for a good number of years. We've also known how to keep them successfully and breed with moderate success. All this was published in The Biology of Camel-Spiders (Arachnida, Solifugae) by Fred Punzo in 1998. I've read most of the book, and I definetly reccomend it for anyone who wants to keep/breed these animals. I'm very surprised more people on these boards haven't found this one yet.

 

[cacoseraph]

It's called "putting yourself in their shoes" also known as an example that puts it on a more personal level....

I also have a question regarding ShadowSpectrum's post: What you're saying does make some sense, but do you think that it would never leave it's hide? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm actually asking because I don't know how they'd act. If everything was provided in its hide, would it just stay there? Thanks for the input.
-Nick

zinto, solis are so different from humans that drawing any comparisons beyond the fact both are animals is very misleading and counterproductive

of all the solis i've kept, the longest lasting (about 6 months) were all in small delicups with no waterdish. the shortest lived were given HUGE cages relative to animals size.

anthropomophizing inverts will generally lead you into trouble. like Randolph said, the ultimate gauge of successful conditions is breeding and producing young.

 

[Steven Gielis]

We've known for years that solfugids hibernate and live for a good number of years. We've also known how to keep them successfully and breed with moderate success. All this was published in The Biology of Camel-Spiders (Arachnida, Solifugae) by Fred Punzo in 1998. I've read most of the book, and I definetly reccomend it for anyone who wants to keep/breed these animals. I'm very surprised more people on these boards haven't found this one yet.

That book belongs to my collection

 

[zinto]

zinto, solis are so different from humans that drawing any comparisons beyond the fact both are animals is very misleading and counterproductive

of all the solis i've kept, the longest lasting (about 6 months) were all in small delicups with no waterdish. the shortest lived were given HUGE cages relative to animals size.

anthropomophizing inverts will generally lead you into trouble. like Randolph said, the ultimate gauge of successful conditions is breeding and producing young.

You're probably right in that comparing humans to any invertebrate is not the best comparison to be made. All that I am trying to say is that in the wild, "solis" obviously do not stay in an area the size of a deli cup. For that reason, it doesn't seem right to me to keep them in such a confined space. I think it's strange that they even survive in an area that size but even stranger that they do so poorly in large areas in captivity. I'm obviously not going to change the world; I'm simply voicing my opinion. That's what the boards are for, right?

lucanidae - thanks for the reference, I'll definitely look into that book!

-Nick

 

[lucanidae]

I am trying to say is that in the wild, "solis" obviously do not stay in an area the size of a deli cup. For that reason, it doesn't seem right to me to keep them in such a confined space. I think it's strange that they even survive in an area that size but even stranger that they do so poorly in large areas in captivity.

In that book Punzo suggests that the reason solfugids do not do well in captivity is because, in short, they run themselves to death. Therefore, keeping them in small cups would reduce the panicked running that causes a lot of early demise.

However! Punzo does not reccomend keeping them in such confined spaces. Instead, he provides a good 'recipe' for substrate that the animals seem to prefer. He also suggests having the substrate deep with appropriate (descirbed in detail in the book) retreats. It is the soil type, depth, and retreats, along with appropriate feeding that leads to captive success by reducing the frantic running that leads solfugids to often "run themselves to death". The deli cup method is a shortcut to more proper care.

 

[Tarantula]

if he house all 300-500 inverts each in 10 gallon tanks, it will be awfully cruel to him

Not cruel at all.. As he chooses himself how many inverts he keeps. Its not impossible to sell inverts... or resist buying many.

Therefor he has himself to blaim to have to keep his inverts in small delis...

 

[ShadowSpectrum]

I also have a question regarding ShadowSpectrum's post: What you're saying does make some sense, but do you think that it would never leave it's hide? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm actually asking because I don't know how they'd act. If everything was provided in its hide, would it just stay there?

I would believe so. If abosolutely everything it needed was provided, inside it's shelter, I don't think it would have a reason to leave. Inverts don't have psychological and emotional needs that need to be met, only physical. They don't talk walks in the park to enjoy the scenery, reduce stress, stay in shape, for the hell of it. They reason they leave is to find food, or if their retreat has been destroyed, etc.

I also would like to add that I believe there is no one right way to keep inverts. Sure, there are plenty of wrong ways, but if what you are doing works for you, than there is no need to fix it.

 

[Randolph XX()]

gee, don't turn this into a everlasting neverending debate like feeding rodents to inverts sorta thingy, okay?
I am simply offering a fact that:
keeping solifugids with seasonal temperature change as letting them hibernate under 15 degree and feeding them with proper amount of food like my frriend does in Taiwan makes his lives longer than most of other keepers'
and if anyone else is intersted in whether keeping a solifugid in a delicup is ethicaly right or not, please open another thread for the debate
The End

 

[Galapoheros]

I can tell that many Solifugae species hibernate during the colder season in their natural habitat. As a student at the university I found some rare but good information of Solifugae in the wild. Overfeeding can kill these animals. Because they have no system to warn them as they eat to much. In the desert you have to eat what you can get! I had also some succes with solifugae. I was able to let them mate an had also eggs and small larvae wich where unable to move. I had more than 70 eggs.Unfortunantly it went bad at the molting. Because the eggs are normally kept in the tunnelsystem of the mother, they hatch under very specific parameters of humidity and heat. Now I am making a special tank for them so I can reproduce the parameters.
Some pictures:

<snip>

female with eggs

Those are nice looking strange animals. I've had the same experience with a large desert species in the US. Same thing.... The eggs hatched but no movement. Everything just seemed to slow down and stop. I see these on the road running, running, running... non stop. I think the book that was mentioned (The Biology of Camel-Spiders (Arachnida, Solifugae) would clear things up for allot of us.

 

[Steven Gielis]

It possebly went wrong because of hibernation. The dealer couldn't tell me where the animals came from. I guess Northern Africa, possebly Egypt. I have got the eggs in the late summer. So guessing at the timing and the big size off the eggs they need to hibernate. The second instar moved but this had yolk in the abdomen and that shouldn't be.

 

[Michael Jacobi]

Instead, he provides a good 'recipe' for substrate that the animals seem to prefer. He also suggests having the substrate deep with appropriate (descirbed in detail in the book) retreats. It is the soil type, depth, and retreats, along with appropriate feeding that leads to captive success by reducing the frantic running that leads solfugids to often "run themselves to death". The deli cup method is a shortcut to more proper care.

Erik,

Would you please elaborate on that substrate mix for those of us who don't have the book?

@ all:

This is a very interesting discussion that illustrates how little we know about keeping these animals in captivity. In Dr. Breene's article in the second issue of my ARACHNOCULTURE magazine, he suggests that poor captive longevity is due to confining these active animals in small quarters where they become sluggish and die. He must have missed Punzo's reference As editor, so did I. I have some juvenile G. granti that I am keeping in 2.5 gallon aquariums on two-three inches of a sand and peat mix with a couple of hiding places. I have a monster over 3 inches in length that is in a 5.5 gal. This discussion has me considering moving it to 2.5 gallon as well.

By the way, can anyone tell me how to sex solifugids?

Cheers, Michael

 

[lucanidae]

he suggests that poor captive longevity is due to confining these active animals in small quarters where they become sluggish and die. He must have missed Punzo's reference As editor, so did I.

As I've said before, I am AMAZED about how unknown this book is. It is by far the top reference on solifuges, written by the world expert on them. Definitely, no article is complete without referencing this book.



I have had a few requests to reveal in more detail what is contained in Fred Punzo's book, so here we go!

To limit how much I have to type and the amount of Punzo's book I purely quote I will select the top few quotes from the ten pages of detailed information. Feel free to continue to PM me for more detailed sections. Please excuse typos.

"Most solifuges become extremely agitated when captured and placed in a cage or holding container. They often move continuously around the perimeter, stopping intermittently in attempts to climb the walls of the cage. Frequently they will not stop until exhausted to the point of immobility. They are capable of literally walking themselves to death. Any strategy and provision that will reduce random ambulatory movements will increase the probability of survival" (Punzo, 250)

"Another way is to use the type of substrate that facilitates the excavation and construciton of burrows. When captive solifuges are allowed to seek shelter within an appropriate container or burrow, their locomotor activity decreses significantly. This, in turn, will increase their survival capacity." (Punzo, 250)

"As a general rule, survival of adults and larger nymps is maximized when the length of the cage is apporimately 6x the body length of the solifuge, and its width 4x the body length. The height of the cage for adults should be at least 9 inches in order to accomodate the required substrate depth." (Punzo, 250)

"I have achieved the best results by using a sandy loam soil consisting of 14.1% clay, 7.1% silt, and 78.8% sand." This produces a substrate with a soil surface hardess of 3.0-3.5 kg/cm -2 " (Punzo, 251)

"For optimum burrow construction, a cage should be used that will allow a substrate depth of 3.5-5 inches." (Punzo, 251)

"As a general rule, most solifuges should be maintained at temperatures in the mid to upper 20's C (70s F)." (Punzo, 252)

Punzo, Fred. The Biology of Camel-Spiders (Arachnidae, Solifigae) Kluwer Academic Publishers, Boston, 1998

Their is a TON of more detailed information in the book, including keys to all the genera of solifuges, and succesfull breeding and subsequent rearing of young in captivity. Anyone who wants to succesfully keep and breed these in captivity, needs this book!

Enjoy!
Eric

 

[lucanidae]

Hey Micheal!

This one is just for you.

"There are some well defined anatomical differences between adult male and female solifuges that will help you in determing the sex of your animals (see Ch. 4 for a more thorough discussion of sexual dimorphism). In most species, the bodies of females are typically longer and more robust. Males have more slender bodies and longer legs. The males of most species have a flagellum located on the dorso-distal region of the doral chelicera." .... "Ther chilcerae of males are usually narrower than those of females and possess few teeth (Figure 4-9, 4-10). The ratio of the chiceral length dived by the chiceral width (jaw index) is reliably larger in males than females. In most species, the malleolar organs are broader and more prominent in males (Figure 4-12)" (Punzo, 257)

Punzo, Fred. The Biology of Camel-Spiders (Arachnidae, Solifigae) Kluwer Academic Publishers, Boston, 1998

This book is great!

 

[Steven Gielis]

Here is a good picture of the flagellum from the male Rhagodes phalangium. It's in the red circles You can also see the chelicerae. In this species the male has also beautifull blue colored head. For the family of Rhagodidae it looks like two small hooks. Buth it is different in shape depending on the family.