Reintroducing Socotra blue baboons

[miyu]

I wanted to see if anyone had any information on this because I find these guys fascinating (and I got a mild blowing deal! $60 is a steal!)

I recently purchased a Monocentropus balfouri male, not quite mature yet and the other was the same (no tibial hooks but getting close to its max size and molts confirmed both were male)- I don’t know if they were egg mates or not but I know it’s not that much of an issue for these guys, though considering they were nearly exactly the same size I assume so. From what the store said they’d been surrendered last year and have been sitting in the store in separate containers the whole time but were once part of a larger group together.

So my question is can you reintroduce these spiders to each other after that long and at that size? I don’t plan to do this because of my lack of experience with old worlds but it was something I was curious about.

Edit: I only purchased one of the T’s that were available, I wasn’t and am not interested in actually housing them together. My inquiry isn’t should I- it’s is it possible.

 

[BoyFromLA]

Just keep them separated.

Tarantulas are not communal.

 

[miyu]

Just keep them separated.

Tarantulas are not communal.

The blue baboons are known for being a particularly communal species that will even cohabitate with non-egg mates. While I would never consider it with another species the fact is that it’s not uncommon for people who have these to house them together. I am particularly asking for advise pertaining to a hypothetical from people who do successfully house them as such.

 

[moricollins]

The blue baboons are known for being a particularly communal species that will even cohabitate with non-egg mates. While I would never consider it with another species the fact is that it’s not uncommon for people who have these to house them together. I am particularly asking for advise pertaining to a hypothetical from people who do successfully house them as such.

They still cannibalize in communal groups.
One tarantula per enclosure = no cannibalism

 

[Iamconstantlyhappy]

I had 4 together. 1 eaten (witnessed). 1 dead. Do the math

 

[Smotzer]

Dont put them together, be stronger than the rest of the stupidity online.

 

[Matt Man]

you rarely hear of a long term success, but hear lots of death tales. It works until they start eating/killing each other. And let's be honest, if adequate room for a single T is X (think adult T sized enclosure) and communal set up would be Y (number of Ts) x X which if you had, say 5, would mean a really BIG enclosure. But no one does that and they stuff them in to too small of a space. This is where evolution kicks in, they will soon either see each other as food or at a minimum, a threat to their food supply. Ts have a range I am going to wager that they are willing to defend and thus when you go smaller than that innate sense of 'my space' you end up with killings.

 

[miyu]

you rarely hear of a long term success, but hear lots of death tales. It works until they start eating/killing each other. And let's be honest, if adequate room for a single T is X (think adult T sized enclosure) and communal set up would be Y (number of Ts) x X which if you had, say 5, would mean a really BIG enclosure. But no one does that and they stuff them in to too small of a space. This is where evolution kicks in, they will soon either see each other as food or at a minimum, a threat to their food supply. Ts have a range I am going to wager that they are willing to defend and thus when you go smaller than that innate sense of 'my space' you end up with killings.

Thank you for taking time to explain further about why these things may not work. Though I’m curious as to why so many other threads about communal set ups that I’ve seen on this site don’t have the same amount of backlash. There seems to be plenty of people asking things like how much space they need for set ups of up to 10 and yet they get answers to the questions they asked instead of just people saying “don’t do it” despite the fact I’ve clearly stated I don’t plan to reintroduce.

However helpful this is though I’m more interested in receiving an answer to the actual hypothetical I’ve posed not to the question of should I or should I not house groups together, as that wasn’t my question.

This is more of a scientific inquiry. I’m wondering about things like long term recognition in T’s and if reintroduction is possible- not because I plan to but because it’s fascinating. It’s a question of memory and instinct sparked by a situation. Would a T be able to instinctually know or “remember” an egg mate? (I know T’s brains aren’t hardwired for long term memory but they can instinctively “remember” where their burrow is and that’s the kind of memory I’m talking about) If so are they more inclined to get along? The fact other “semi-communal” T’s are never okay with non egg mates says that it’s possible they might but then why is the Socotra island blue baboon so different? How long is their memory for other T’s? Is this only for egg mates or can they “remember” other T’s they were raised with?

I’m wanting to know if other people have had similar circumstances and if they’ve made any reintroductions. And if so to tell me how that situation or a similar one went.

My understanding of the blue baboon from research of their habitat is that because of the island they come from they might gather in groups for short periods while they wait out rainstorms. So while they’re inclined to a truce for a short time, long term may be unsustainable. Lack of research however means we haven’t seen whether or not this is the case so why exactly they might be more amenable to living together is unknown.

Socotra island is rife with endemic species that behave differently than anywhere on earth and their tarantulas are just as unique so I’ve become invested in finding out and compiling what others have found during their times doing a communal set up. If there’s been scientific papers or research journals that it seems I missed I’d love to be directed to those too, even if they’re only tangentially related.

I had 4 together. 1 eaten (witnessed). 1 dead. Do the math

Good to know. My question was not one of the viability of a communal set up however.

I would like to know anything interesting you learned during your time with them. Stories of anything you witnessed that seemed strange?

How much space did they have? What was their hunting habits like? Did they seem to share food or hunt individually? Was there ever a time where they tried to hunt the same prey and if so what was the outcome? How many were male and female and what sizes were they when introduced? Size when found dead/eaten? Who was eating who? (A male eating a male, a female eating a female, a female eating a male, or a male eating a female?) Did there seem to be some kind of hierarchy?

Thanks!

Another part of this inquiry is that the people at the shop I bought my blue baboon from were trying to sell me both and said I could house them together but I was skeptical knowing they had been separated for over a year. I didn’t end up buying both because I didn’t trust their knowledge as they’d said some other mildly suspect things during our short interaction. That is what sparked my interest in learning about how the communal set ups work and the more I looked into it the more interested I became in the deeper intricacies of the Monocentropus balfouri species. I don’t plan to study this firsthand because I don’t want to endanger any T’s. I’m looking to those that have already done the work to give me insight.

 

[Tarantuland]

Good to know. My question was not one of the viability of a communal set up however.

What was your question then?

So my question is can you reintroduce these spiders to each other after that long and at that size? I don’t plan to do this because of my lack of experience with old worlds but it was something I was curious about.

It reads as you're questioning the viability of a communal. People on here aren't going to advocate for communals, and no tarantulas lives communally in the wild.
Having said that, I do have 4 M Balfouris that were sacmates. They were living together then split up for sale, then I put them back together. That was this past September, and I don't know how many of them are still alive. They're very reclusive, so I'm hoping for the best, but realistically I'm probably going to split them up at some point because I don't want them to eat each other.

 

[Matt Man]

like various Ts that cohabitate with Frogs I am guessing there is some sort of chemical signaling that confirms a "not prey" response. That seems to make sense when applied to sac mates and a non sac mate would more easily be read as 'rival' and thus produce a territorial response. Though to my knowledge there has been little to no scientific research so much of the communal stuff you hear is myth. If you search the forum there was a discussion in Late September of last year (2020)\

.

 

[miyu]

What was your question then?



It reads as you're questioning the viability of a communal. People on here aren't going to advocate for communals, and no tarantulas lives communally in the wild.
Having said that, I do have 4 M Balfouris that were sacmates. They were living together then split up for sale, then I put them back together. That was this past September, and I don't know how many of them are still alive. They're very reclusive, so I'm hoping for the best, but realistically I'm probably going to split them up at some point because I don't want them to eat each other.

Interesting, please keep me updated on how that goes. I hope for their sake they’re all well and alive however I know it doesn’t always work out that way.

It’s interesting you say that though while I’ve found many threads on this site advocating communal. One of which was housing 10 together.

Good size enclosure for 10 balfouri sling communal?

What size enclosure would be proper for a 10 balfouri slings (1/2") communal to give them enough room but not promote cannibalism? I have them in a small Kritter Keeper but not sure if I should maybe go smaller? I don't want cannibalization obviously, but these slings are all siblings that lived...

arachnoboards.com

M.balfouri communal set ups?

So I had a massive stroke of luck earlier in the week. I was planning on buying a female M.balfouri from Fear Not Tarantulas, and upon talking with Tanya, I ended up with a communal instead! I have 5 3/4" inch slings that'll arrive next Tuesday. With this in mind, I've begun setting up an...

arachnoboards.com

M. Balfouri Communal Enclosure Size

Just a little curious. For single tarantulas I give them an enclosure with 2-3 times their leg span in walking or climbing space depending on the species. How much space should you give an M. Balfouri sling communal? When should they get moved into a larger enclosure? This is something I need to...

arachnoboards.com

And not living communally in the wild is still a question from my reading and understanding, While it’s still being studied and we have yet to find any that live together the m. Balfouri are not as widely researched as many other species. I’d love resources on them however if you have conflicting studies- I’m not being facetious when I say this, I know how typing can come across.

Although I feel as though many of the replies have been a bit confrontational I understand that we all love our spiders and don’t want people to make the mistakes we have, or have seen others make. This is not a thread made to confirm or deny anyone who keeps communally or not. It is a genuine question of scientific inquiry. (Yours didn’t come across as overly malicious or anything- I’m pointing out that the general consensus seems to be negative of the idea without reference to the question while other threads of people who are actually doing it haven’t the same negative reaction)

And it’s not the viability of all communal that I’m asking- it’s the viability of reintroduction at that size. From readings (that I’m taking with a grain of salt) people have introduced slings to juveniles or raised slings together. I’ve not seen anyone site long term separation and introduction.

Please do keep me posted, thank you.

like various Ts that cohabitate with Frogs I am guessing there is some sort of chemical signaling that confirms a "not prey" response. That seems to make sense when applied to sac mates and a non sac mate would more easily be read as 'rival' and thus produce a territorial response. Though to my knowledge there has been little to no scientific research so much of the communal stuff you hear is myth. If you search the forum there was a discussion in Late September of last year (2020)\

.

Ah that’s interesting! I’ve heard about the frogs and tarantulas but hadn’t put these thoughts together! Very good connection. Could you by any chance link me to the discussion?

Thank you

 

[Matt Man]

The odd couple: spider-frog mutualism in the Amazon rainforest – Isopoda – Francesco Tomasinelli

Tiny Frogs and Giant Spiders: Best of Friends

You might be surprised to learn that microhylid frogs in Peru, India, Sri Lanka and perhaps elsewhere have developed close relationships with large spiders...

blogs.scientificamerican.com

 

[Edan bandoot]

Tom Moran has a 40 minute video on a balfouri communal I think

 

[miyu]

The odd couple: spider-frog mutualism in the Amazon rainforest – Isopoda – Francesco Tomasinelli

Tiny Frogs and Giant Spiders: Best of Friends

You might be surprised to learn that microhylid frogs in Peru, India, Sri Lanka and perhaps elsewhere have developed close relationships with large spiders...

blogs.scientificamerican.com

Interesting! I knew they ate pest ants but the skin being mildly poisonous and therefore not seen as food is interesting.

If it was only because of the pest angle then I’d say there’s something to be said of their ability to recognize something as not just not a threat but also as a positive, but the mild skin toxin also creates a new thought that the frogs are the ones taking advantage of the tarantulas burrow and not the other way around, though it’s still obviously symbiotic. The fact young ones might grab and release the frog is also fascinating, that they might have learned from that experience is probably yet to be gleaned but it is something to consider. Now I wonder if you have a frog/spider cohabitation and then remove the frogs and add them back if there’s a memory there or if they’ll repeat the catch and release method to find out what it is again or just accept them because there’s a memory!

Thanks again!

 

[Crazyarachnoguy]

MM M.balfouris do not acquire tibial hooks, so that is probably why you don’t see any. Yes you can introduce them to each other. I know people who have plenty and do fine, and buddy has a communal of 600 balfouri. They should be housed together in an enclosure that is not small but not large. If you have an enclosure that is too large, you run the risk of the spiders becoming territorially. Obviously fatalities happen, watch Tom morans video on YouTube.

 

[Edan bandoot]

MM M.balfouris do not acquire tibial hooks, so that is probably why you don’t see any. Yes you can introduce them to each other. I know people who have plenty and do fine, and buddy has a communal of 600 balfouri. They should be housed together in an enclosure that is not small but not large. If you have an enclosure that is too large, you run the risk of the spiders becoming territorially.

600???

 

[Crazyarachnoguy]

600???

Yup, he is a member on here but I won’t disclose that information for privacy reasons. I have a communal setup currently, it consists of only 2 balfouri. They are thriving and doing very well. They’re always riding on each others back, almost like a piggy back ride.

 

[miyu]

MM M.balfouris do not acquire tibial hooks, so that is probably why you don’t see any. Yes you can introduce them to each other. I know people who have plenty and do fine, and buddy has a communal of 600 balfouri. They should be housed together in an enclosure that is not small but not large. If you have an enclosure that is too large, you run the risk of the spiders becoming territorially. Obviously fatalities happen, watch Tom morans video on YouTube.

600- ??? What!? I feel like you’re yanking my chain lol. But I didn’t know that about the tibial hooks! Though he’s definitely not full size, unless what I’ve read about their max size being ~6 inches (which wouldn’t surprise me, I’ve seen a lot of misinformation about Ts since starting to look around), but that makes me mildly worried as I purposely chose the male that had broken legs. I know some when they reach full maturation no longer molt. (I honestly only got him because he had apparently escaped in the store and was found with a missing leg and 2 broken ones and I wanted to put it in a better environment to heal instead of a container with so little substrate it honestly hurt)

But that’s wild. I won’t ask who but if there’s any way to put me in contact, maybe through email, I’d love to ask some questions about well... absolutely everything! Watching a setup of that size would be an amazing way to glean so much scientific data!

 

[Crazyarachnoguy]

I will pm you. They reach about 6” here is a pic of my MM I just paired.

 

[miyu]

I will pm you. They reach about 6” here is a pic of my MM I just paired.

beautiful! Mine is definitely no where near that size which is good! I’d hate for him to have to go through life with so many hurt legs.

I still wouldn’t personally feel comfortable having a communal set up as both a novice and a huge worry-wart but it’s very interesting to observe.

When one “rides” the other is it always the same one underneath or do they switch places? I wonder if that’s a sign of dominance or social hierarchy? if so and which would be considered the leader if that’s the case?

what Does your setup look like in full if you don’t mind showing me.

honestly I’m starting to think I need to make a trip to the Socotra island to observe the natural habitat. If only I was a biology student and could get a grant to go lol.