Really big problem, need help!

[DrAce]

I've only just stumbled on this thread, and I am confident that I can't offer you any additional input that hasn't been said (yes, I've read all 6 pages now). I'm so sorry, Ryan, that this is happening, and I really hope that you'll get on top of it (and it seems you are). You've done all that I can think of doing, and I think your management of a 'breakout' rivals the best of some of the health boards I've seen!

I'm of the increasing opinion that DS is not borne from a single cause. I have a distinct feeling that DS is a set of symptoms which spiders go through when they are dying from a range of causes - just as epileptic signs are not from a single cause. Infection has been raised as a possible answer - and there've been more than one set of cases on the boards here which appear to fit that bill (including the one listed by Cheetah, unfortunately, since some pathogens can hang around for litterally years), while in others it doesn't appear to be likely, and food poisoning was suspected.

Is there any pattern to the feedings that the affected tarantulas got? Were they all fed off the same 'generation' of roach, or within the same couple of days?

The biting off of legs is a new symptom from what I've read on these boards (I started a thread eons ago hoping that anyone who had DS would add a page, and we might start getting to the bottom of what causes it). I have a pet hypothesis that the DS symptoms are a result of the tarantula receiving erronious position information from their limbs - similar to a system in humans called the 'prioperception system'. That would lead to the 'flailing' around that we see, because the tarantula has no idea where the limbs are in space. As the spider moults, it exchanges the sensors on the exoskeleton for new ones which make the symptoms gradually improve - which is why they seem to moult out of it in some cases. It may also be why they seem to occasionally moult into it as well - the sensors weren't formed correctly.

It's not hard to extrapolate that to imply that in a severe case, the tarantula might sacrafice a limb that it feels either doesn't belong, or is somehow hampering it (which again, makes me think that the hypothesis has some basis).


Again, though, there's never been a really good explaination for WHY the dreaded DS comes around.

Sadly, finding a pathogen from the carcasses is next-to-impossible. If it's viral, then it's practically impossible. If it's a bacteria or fungus, then it's very possible - but it's unlikely to be either of those. The pattern you are seeing is probably telling you something - but it's going to be hard to interpret. I doubt it's pure 'stress'... but it's not impossible.

 

[Skullptor]

Have you turned your AC on this year? I was wondering if turning on the AC for the first time might introduce something into the air. Do you reuse your vials? Perhaps the vials were infected before the spider was introduced. Do you wash the new ones first;. there can be mold release residue left on the new ones.

Sorry to hear this. Hope you're through it whatever it is.

 

[ErinKelley]

With so few things to point fingers at anymore, I thought of one more. Maybe shafts of sunlight through the window?? I'm sure you've racked your brain with every possibilty as to why that group.

Just a thought, good luck finding some resolution.

Erin

 

[Mina]

I wish I could add something helpful, Ryan. I can't. All I can do is let you know that I'm sending positive energy your way for this to stop and not happen again and I wish you all the best!!!!!! *hug*
How is everything now? Any changes?

 

[greenmonkey51]

Switch to distilled water. In reef tanks copper can kill invertebrates within hours. Since tarantulas are invertebrates there is no reason to think that copper in the water source couldn't do the same. The fact that they're all from the same genus and probably use more water than other tarantulas, would point me to the water. I'm pretty sure that water companies use copper to kill pathogens in the water, and since warmer weather encourages growth of pathogens, more copper would be needed.

 

[Travis K]

Ryan

You live in an apartment...

Have you asked the Manager if they have done any type of lawn fertilizer, weed killers, or if they have sprayed for bugs around the buildings?

This would be the first place I would start if I were you. It would make sense that the slings would be the first to show signs.

Were the slings that were affected near the window or maybe even exposed to an outside draft near an electrical outlet?

 

[UrbanJungles]

I guess I should have explained further...

The biting thing is typical of poisoned insects as most of today's pesticides are made to affect the nervous system...Once they are affected by the poison their nervous system starts to just go haywire and biting/self mutilation is typical. Roaches will do this once they get to the stage where they are just flailing around on their backs.

Remember that spiders have relatively slow metabolisms...anything ingested usually takes a while to circulate and affect the body. The fact that the slings were suddenly affected and died within literally a few hours (days) once again just confirms my belief. Pesticides are incredibly effective at attacking inverts and affecting them almost immediately.

As Anastasia mentioned, EVERYONE around us uses pesticides on their lawns/ garden whether private homes or commerical lots. It's very easy for the suff to be airborne, waterborne, or on your clothes hands, even food.

 

[Travis K]

I checked with the apt complex and nothing has been sprayed in the last 10 months.

They might be on a maintenance schedule so they would not necessarily have been informed about a lawn fertilization, weed treatment, or pest spray.

I have Managed apts in the past and the management company had set up for them to just come out and spray with out my even knowing. If I hadn't seen them doing it I would not have known it happened. I have also seen lawn contractors and other types of contractors have miss communications and set up Apt communities on a "maintenance" program and then only found out we had been sprayed after we got the bill.

And then there is the possibility that one of your neighbors sprayed for spiders, fleas, or ants. I suppose that even perfumes, colognes, and lotions might even be bad for T's but who knows.

 

[saminthemiddle]

(sigh) I am just glad the symptom spreading seems for the moment to have slowed down.

Is there anything to be learned from the remains of the dead?

Yes, there is a lot we can do with the remains of the dead. Let's look for nematodes in the remains as we should be able to see them under a good microscope.

If you don't have a microscope, please PM me and I'll send you my address so you can send me some dead and I can dissect them for you.

I'm in agreement that this sounds a lot like poisoning but be know of at least one case of nematodes exhibiting these symptoms so we should at least try to rule them out (or in).

In the mean time, please call your municipal water company and ask for the water data. They do tests of the water they pump every day to detect certain pollutants and to make sure their chlorination and fluoridation and on track. Fish owners are constantly calling them for this information!

 

[testdasi]

Don't rule out saminthemiddle's substrate hypothesis yet. Because all the substrate is from the same bag, let's assume the toxin/parasites are not in the subtrate originially. However, toxins can be introduced to the substrate AFTER you have baked it. From my experience with cooking/baking, it takes at least an hour for something baked at 350 for 30mins to cool to room temperature (e.g. cookies). Within that time span, anything can be introduced. I don't think you keep the substrate in the fridge to cool it down so it should be left somewhere windy to speed up the cooling process. And windy means some toxin/parasites can be introduced. If the toxin/parasites are waterbourne then if they will be introduced if you mix the substrate with the water without boiling (toxin may even still be there after boiling). The amount of anti-stuffs chemicals in the water may spike on the exact day that you use it. Therefore, the most important question to ask (to test the substrate hypothesis validity) is whether all of the substrate used for the infected spiders comes from the same batch of baked substrate or mixed with the water on the same day. I assume you would prepare like 10 pounds of substrate then spread them out in enclosures to be used. The first 20 of the batch may be used by the slings from the same egg sag so slings come out at the same time so need the substrate at the same time. Maybe you have a little bit of extra so you added it to the enclosure of the odd spiders who were also affected and die. It's another hypothesis to look at. If you can't rule this out then you can't rule out saminthemiddle's substrate hypothesis.
Ok, I know I'm a newbie here but my conclusion is completely based on logic and doesn't need much spider knowledge so I guess I can speak my mind.

And some random thoughts, the speed of your "infection" seems extremely unlikely for a parasite. I'm no biologist but I took bio classes in which I had to grow bacteria. It took minimum 2-3 days for the bacteria to grow to a significant level even in ideal conditions. I don't think inside of a spider is that ideal. The behaviour of "tearing one's limb off" does not indicate whether it's a parasite or toxin. The spider may be tortured by whatever "feelings" it can feel from the limb and taking it off just eases the "feelings". And from the way your spider behave in the clip, the "human-equivalent" versions would be either motor-neural disorder (can't move limbs properly) or sensory-neural disorder (it can't see/sense the environment, the spider raises its legs to "feel" the environment but it just can't do it very weel; I think of this because the spider seemed to react to your hand, it felt your hand when it's close enough but might not be able to see it coming; but again, I thought tarantulas are effectively blind; but then again, they may use their eyes for navigation; this may open up the possibility of a parasite that damages the eyes/eye nerves - quick development of the symptom - then it spreads out to the motor nerves). Just my 2 cents. Hope I'm not talking nonsense.

Oh and medically speaking, the only way to test for sure is to introduce some same-size same-bred T's into the the exact same substrate + container + food + water in which the other T's have been known to be infected to see if the new T's will be affected the same way. The control will be the same-size same-bred T's but in new substrate + new container + new food + new water. This may be cruel for those that may die infected but I believe that's how drugs are tested: one with real drug (here, same conditions), one with placebo (here, new conditions).

 

[saminthemiddle]

I completely agree with TestDasi's hypothesis on substrate contamination although the way we usually cool our substrate (indoors on trays) I'm not so sure about.

I wouldn't be surprised if the pathogens or toxins weren't introduced in storage, however. For example, if the bag was left open a mouse could climb in and pee, instantly contaminating it with who knows what.

Other than that, the contamination could have come from feces of flies or some other insect that you didn't notice.

But please, please, please call you water company!

 

[saminthemiddle]

I just thought of something. Let's say the contaminant is being bioaccumulated though your roach colonies by something they ate. I'm willing to bet that roaches can take a lot more poisons than spiders can so you wouldn't necessarily see the effect on the roaches and know they were poisoned. What we need to do is to concentrate the toxins enough within the colony to begin affecting the roaches.

Time to do an experiment.

Because roaches eat each other if one dies a potential way to bioaccumulate toxins in the roach colony would be to feed pre killed roaches to other roaches and see if they start dying.

Pick five or so of the smallest nymphs you can find and separate them into individual containers. Then, feed them each some mashed up roach that you got from the same colony. After they eat a few roaches (10 or so each?) maybe you will begin to see toxic effects.

 

[ShadowBlade]

Okay, for me I think the most important thing to do is to isolate the disease vector. Here's where we stand so far:

Foodborne: No
Waterborne: No
Airborne: Highly unlikely but possible

Whoa whoa, wait a second.. What? How have we ruled out ANY possibilities? There is no confirmed data as to how long the symptoms can take to manifest themselves, all his spiders could be affected for all we know. I think everyone's moving a little too fast here.

All we know is that all the spiders use the same food and water sources, and some pokies are showing the signs first, that's not alot to go on.

First off, Ryan, have all spiders showing symptoms been quarantined? That's first priority, and observe the other spiders as often as you can, watching for these symptoms.

-Sean

 

[Steven Valys]

Switch to distilled water. In reef tanks copper can kill invertebrates within hours. Since tarantulas are invertebrates there is no reason to think that copper in the water source couldn't do the same. The fact that they're all from the same genus and probably use more water than other tarantulas, would point me to the water. I'm pretty sure that water companies use copper to kill pathogens in the water, and since warmer weather encourages growth of pathogens, more copper would be needed.

If you have running water in your dwelling, it has come in contact with copper at some point. High doses of copper can kill any animal. Most water companies would use a chlorine solution for biological cleansing, it's cheaper and much more effective.

 

[saminthemiddle]

Sean: we can rule out water and foodborne diseases because a) he hasn't lost any feeders and b) he boils his water. We can say that airborne is very unlikely as well because he has a LOT of animals in a small area, if it were airborne it would have infected all of them.

If it's poison it doesn't mean anything but if it's disease it means a lot.

Also, for airborne. Because of how spiders breathe it's less likely that a pathogen would be airborne than carried by another vector, it just wouldn't be that infectious.

 

[DrAce]

Sean: we can rule out water and foodborne diseases because a) he hasn't lost any feeders and b) he boils his water. We can say that airborne is very unlikely as well because he has a LOT of animals in a small area, if it were airborne it would have infected all of them.

If it's poison it doesn't mean anything but if it's disease it means a lot.

Also, for airborne. Because of how spiders breathe it's less likely that a pathogen would be airborne than carried by another vector, it just wouldn't be that infectious.

There is absolutely no reason to dismiss water, food, air or substrate. Basically, there is absolutely no reason to believe it's any one thing over any others because there just isn't enough information.

We can't dismiss water - boiling it would not remove any chemical which is not volitile or temperature sensitive.

The substrate is equally uncertain... It's unlikely that anything serious was introduced into the substrate, because it would have to be floating about in the air (or somehow getting into the soil) in a concentration which is significant enough to contaminate the soil to the point of inducing death. It's likely that this would have shown up before now.

Food - this is inherantily possible, but this would likely show up in a feeding pattern - is there any pattern in the ones who have this syndrome and the ones who were fed first/last/more recently/from the same batch etc.

Air - always a possibility, but why didn't everyone get it. Also, this doesn't tell us WHAT it is, just the vector bringing it there.

And there is always the chance that this is a pathogen like a virus.

In short, none of us really know.

 

[josh_r]

ive seen this D.S. thing in aphonopelma in the wild, though it seems to be very rare. i think it might be a neurological thing.... i cant say for certain, but it does make them act very out of the ordinary. i have never had anything spread from those spider to my collection at all.

could be fungal. if it is spreading that quickly and if it is affecting their motor skills and making them behave out of ordinary.... could be fungus. maybe you should isolate a spider and let the cycle take its course and see if anything comes out of it... like spore heads or something.

 

[saminthemiddle]

No, Dr. Ace:

You missed the operative word "diseases." We're talking pathogens here and pathogen control. If it's a toxin it's likely gone by now unless it's bioaccumulated in the food supply. If it's a pathogen we have a lot to worry about.

And the vector is the important thing now. If we know what it is we don't necessarily know how to control it but if we can isolate the vector it's being spread by we can quarantine and control it effectively. Once it's controlled we have the luxury of figuring out exactly what it is.

And, yes we *can* rule out water and foodborne disease for the moment. Yes, it's not 100% certain but it's a good start and a solid footing to investigate further. In case you haven't noticed, Talkenlate doesn't have the luxury of waiting around till he's 100% certain.

Also, I'm still not convinced whatever it was is airborne just for the simple fact that it infected his slings first. Generally slings are so small they can't have significant airholes and thus would be more insulated from airborne toxins and pathogens than the more mature spiders. But it's still a possibility especially if the toxin is a gas rather than a suspended liquid or dust ect...

TalkenLate:

Can you identify any common themes among the environments of the infected animals such as:

1) humidity
2) air circulation
3) temperature
4) locale (such as if just one room was infected)

And call you water company!!! It's really important that you do.

 

[Talkenlate04]

TalkenLate:

Can you identify any common themes among the environments of the infected animals such as:

1) humidity
2) air circulation
3) temperature
4) locale (such as if just one room was infected)

They are all in the same room under the same conditions.

 

[josh_r]

Also, I'm still not convinced whatever it was is airborne just for the simple fact that it infected his slings first. Generally slings are so small they can't have significant airholes and thus would be more insulated from airborne toxins and pathogens than the more mature spiders. But it's still a possibility especially if the toxin is a gas rather than a suspended liquid or dust ect...

QUOTE]

well, yes, sling containers have super small air holes or even none, but you dont leave them closed all the time. you must feed them and that requires you open the container. this is enough time for ANY airborn pathogen or spores or whatever to get inside and start its thing.