Really big problem, need help!

[Talkenlate04]

Karma maybe? ha ha

Your not banned yet?

 

[AubZ]

Karma maybe? ha ha

I don't mean to be funy towards you, but this is a serious matter and Ryan is well respected here, so let's please not have any jokes about this. He has 100's of T's that he is worried about.

Thanks.

EDIT : On top of that, this thread might be used to gain insight into T's and the diseases that can affect them and help us keepers prevent them.

 

[Talkenlate04]

There is a reason he is on his second suspension. Let's just ignore him.

 

[saminthemiddle]

Okay, I'm definitely thinking that the substrate is a very real possibility as our vector. Peat/sphagnum moss is known to be a disease vector for human pathogens and experienced gardeners know to wash their hands after handling it.

Now, you are baking the substrate which, at first, makes it seem unlikely. However, if the disease agent either can enter a resistant state or was already in a resistant state I would imagine that they would be able to survive the baking.

I know that many bacterias are able to form cysts that are capable of withstanding 350 degree temperature for limited amounts of time and I would think it possible that nematode eggs might be able to do it as well, but I'm not sure. You bake the substrate but fail to kill a handful of eggs, you add water hatching the eggs, the spider enters the substrate and gets infected by worms.

So questions:

1) We know that the P regalis slings got new substrate. Did the other spiders that are exhibiting the symptoms just get a substrate change? Possibly from the same batch of substrate?

2) Are any spiders that have *not* had a substrate change from this batch of substrate exhibited symptoms?

3) At what temperature and for how long do you bake your substrate?

All the advice that I can give at this point is don't change any substrates any time soon. If you just changed the substrate on a spider that has not yet developed symptoms remove her from the tank and put her on new soil that you can be more comfortable with.

Of course, the disease could have come in on food that you fed your feeders that you fed to your spiders but I don't think so for two reasons:

1) your feeders aren't dying by the droves or exhibiting any symptoms.

2) IIRC only a small percentage, namely the P regalis slings are affected. If it were feeders I would expect all your animals to be infected.

Just to be sure though, I would take a random sample of the nymphs out of the roach enclosure and monitor them closely before resuming feeding. The older roaches may be devouring the dead roaches before you have time to notice the problem. Just to be safe I would feed petstore crix till you can be 100% sure your colonies are safe as well.

Best of luck!

 

[saminthemiddle]

By new spiders I'm referring to the P regalis slings.

Another thing to do to rule out poisoning by water. Call your municipal water company and ask if, in the last month, there have been any unusual chemical readings in the water. They should be able to tell you.

 

[Talkenlate04]

The substrate is from a bag I have had a long time. I'd venture to say almost all my collection has substrate from that bag.
I am baking at 350 for 30-45 minutes (depending on when I remember to get back to the oven! )

Just to be safe I would feed petstore crix till you can be 100% sure your colonies are safe as well.

I think they will have to starve for a while. There is no way I can pay for that many crickets. But as you said none of the feeders seem to be affected at all.

Ahhh ok its time for me to get home. I will post an update here shortly.

Another thing to do to rule out poisoning by water. Call your municipal water company and ask if, in the last month, there have been any unusual chemical readings in the water. They should be able to tell you.

I would assume boiling the water like I do would remove harsh chemicals? No? I don't really know, thats why I am asking.

 

[matthias]

That video is VERY hard to watch. But it and everything you've said makes me think chemical of some kind. It is just too quick for any parasite or pathogenDid you just water those slings? or change their substrate? Boiling water and backing peat will kill most living things but will not do anything to a chemical pesticide.
Contamination may not have happened near you. It could have been on some truck that had a spill on it.

I can only imagine what you are going through right now. Our thoughts are with you.

 

[saminthemiddle]

Well, it would seem that my substrate theory just got torpedoed. Too bad too. A substrate problem would have been the easiest to fix I would think.

So: we can update the list of possible vectors to:

Foodborne: Highly unlikely
Waterborne: Highly unlikely
Airborne: Highly unlikely
Substrate: No

If it's a chemical it might be coming in from the water. The only way to tell is to call up the water company and ask them about their readings.

As for waterborne pathogens I would be interested in knowing how long you boiled the water for.

I would be interested right now in two things:

1) the size of the two other animals that are affected

2) how long you boil water

This whole DS thing is a real puzzle. I want to say nematodes as we know that some spiders have shown the same symptoms and have been known to carry nematodes. I also want to say pesticides because first, the symptoms look like pesticides and second, because you seem to employ very careful biological control methods and I'm hitting a brick wall in terms of how they could have been infected. A chemical, on the other hand, stands a better chance of not being broken down by boiling. Furthermore, pesticides would show symptoms in the smaller animals while possibly not even phasing the larger ones.

My money is on either a pesticide in the water or the food chain or a pathogen coming in through some unknown vector.

 

[Anastasia]

Hey Ryan, the deaths yo are describing sound alot like pesticide poisoning.
I hope this gets resolved fast for you....

Just have to say here I Am with Danny here
here is just sumthing to point out that many dont have in mind
neighbor of mine came to my yard to introduce them selfs
and ask me to come over to see his wife and kids
they was having picnic (I just boght a house, so I still dont know all my neighbors)
first thing I saw is dozen citronella candles and huge bottle of bugOFF,
After I left I went straight to shower and change all my clothe
We all maybe dont realize all of that mosquito sprays and candles will kill many bugs including Tarantulas
it really dont take much
Be Aware of this!
Anastasia

PS, Ryan, hope you will resolve your problem shortly

 

[Talkenlate04]

Came home to some what good news. There was only two more cases over night. That is down from yesterdays explosion of 20+. And my rufilata girl made a nice healthy egg sac.
I am taking the day off work to sterilize the whole room. So hopefully (knock knock knock) the worst of this is over.

 

[Nerri1029]

Before we go down the road of some genetic disorder...

I think the food source should be looked at further.

What do you feed your feeders? what could be getting into your feeders?
Produce is exposed to lots of things before it gets to us.

I lost a sizeable portion of roaches from some grapes ( or so I think )

as for the water:

Chlorine isn;t used as much now. but Chloramines are:

from:http://www.lenntech.com/water-disinfection/disinfectants-chloramines.htm

Can chloramines be removed from water?

Chloramines remain active in the water system for a considerably long period of time. Like other molecules, chloramines contribute to the total amount of dissolved solids in the water. Like chlorine, chloramines are selectively reactive and may have damaging affects when they remain in the water for too long.
When chloramines are present, there are usually trace amounts of ammonia and hypochlorite in the water as well. Chloramines are hardly ionic. As a result and because of the low molecular weight, chloramines, mainly monochloramine, are difficult to remove from water by reverse osmosis (RO) or water softening. Boiling and distillation cannot be used either. Substances for chlorine removal cannot be used for the removal of chloramines. Sunlight and aeration may aid chloramine removal.
Chloramines can be removed by means of a granular active carbon filter. This filter brings down chloramine concentrations from 1-2 ppm to less than 0,1 ppm. One must make sure that the active carbon comes in contact with chloramines for a significant amount of time. An active carbon filter is a selective, which means it also removes other compounds, such as chlorine (reduction to chloride), hydrogen sulphide, organic compounds, THM, pesticides and radon. When these compounds are present in water, this will influence the capacity of the filter.
The amount of chloramines in the water can be determined by measuring the 'total chlorine' residu. This means measuring the 'total amount of chlorine' or the 'amount of chlorine compounds'.

So just boiling won't get rid of them but they don;t seem to be a prblem.
I used Distilled.

ALSO:
From a statistics standpoint, There is no raeson just yet to scream "The sky is falling" just yet.

You have many animals in close prox. If this is the worse you've experienced you are lucky.
So while you shouldn't ignore this. ( and you aren't )
I think you are doing all that is reasonable otherwise.

GOOD LUCK

 

[Anastasia]

The substrate is from a bag I have had a long time. I'd venture to say almost all my collection has substrate from that bag.
I am baking at 350 for 30-45 minutes (depending on when I remember to get back to the oven! )


I think they will have to starve for a while. There is no way I can pay for that many crickets. But as you said none of the feeders seem to be affected at all.

Ahhh ok its time for me to get home. I will post an update here shortly.


I would assume boiling the water like I do would remove harsh chemicals? No? I don't really know, thats why I am asking.

Ryan, I would NOT reuse any substrates, just buy a new bag of 'Greenworld' sphagnum peat moss, it the best of all that I ever used

 

[Talkenlate04]

Ryan, I would NOT reuse any substrates, just buy a new bag of 'Greenworld' sphagnum peat moss, it the best of all that I ever used

I don't reuse substrate. But needless to say I threw that bag out and will get another bag when I can.

ALSO:
From a statistics standpoint, There is no raeson just yet to scream "The sky is falling" just yet.

You have many animals in close prox. If this is the worse you've experienced you are lucky.

25 slings so far in two days, my sky is falling regardless of the total after this.

 

[xodustrance]

I don't reuse substrate. But needless to say I threw that bag out and will get another bag when I can.


25 slings so far in two days, my sky is falling regardless of the total after this.

Well I have 4 of your slings Ryan, and Ill post back if anything comes of it.

But to be completely honest, these are the healthiest little buggers I have seen in a while. And I just recieved these a week or so ago. So this must be newely introduced, at least imho.

Tell you what, once you get it under control, if you lose all your CB slings, Ill send you two back to help you recover.

Sad sad thing to hear.

 

[Talkenlate04]

The slings you got were from a different sac then the one that is affected now. I was planning on keeping this whole sac for myself.

 

[Nerri1029]

25 slings so far in two days, my sky is falling regardless of the total after this.

Oh I didn't to imply you are over reacting or that you shouldn't be worried.

I was in the end giving a compliment on your diligence for keeping things clean.

 

[Talkenlate04]

(sigh) I am just glad the symptom spreading seems for the moment to have slowed down.

Is there anything to be learned from the remains of the dead?

 

[AubZ]

This is extremely wierd and frustrating. I would really love to know more about this and what caused it. Is there anyway we are going to find out? If the specimens are tested and worms are found, then how did they get there and only affect those and nothing else??

 

[Le Wasp]

Is there anything to be learned from the remains of the dead?

Unfortunately, a lot of parasites, bacteria, viruses, etc. that cause behavioral changes are tricky to spot. It took a lot of researchers to discover the Israeli virus causing colony collapse disorder in honeybees. So I'd imagine that in the tarantula world, where there is very little research funding, a lot of these problems will remain a mystery. Dealing with an unknown problem source basically puts us back in the dark ages, throwing out cats to cure the plague.

Just in case this is some kind of detectable parasite, you could take one of the spiders showing the worst symptoms to a microscope for a dissection. Make sure it is freshly dead, not frozen, so whatever is in there could be easier to spot.

The neurological damage sounds like some of the pesticides that are used, but the T's biting their own legs sounds bizarre enough to be a parasite. They can make their hosts do crazy things to help spread themselves (crickets drowning themselves, ants feeding themselves to sheep, etc.)

 

[betuana]

I would definitely encourage calling the water company to find out if there have been any recent fluctuations in anything. Or changes. Our local water company issued a statement about how they were going to change an additive they use in treating for a couple months. They said it would be harmless either way, but people might notice a slight taste difference, and some people's water pressure might act up (how an additive does that I'm not sure - but it did!)

But even though its theoretically 'safe' for people, that doesn't say anything about pets. For that matter, there are those laws about 'safe' levels of arsenic and the like - even if its still within the 'safe' range, if something spiked recently that could've had an effect.

And for feeders, just because some animals in a population are infected, or even carriers, doesn't necessarily mean all will be. It depends on what the the vector for infection and transmission, but some crickets or other feeders could be infected with something (parasites, carrying levels of pesticides) that others don't have, which means not all of them will infect the T's.

If you are raising your own, it could be on the food, as someone mentioned. If there are eggs from something, or traces of pesticide, some of your feeders could ingest those, then pass them on. Some things survive washing and boiling, etc. So maybe a few feeders got a mouthful of something bad, and passed it on to your T's.

I would think it would be possible for an exam to be done looking for parasites (microscope dissection as someone mentioned, smear slides, etc), though this won't catch everything. I'd also think they'd be able to test for at least some chemical agents like pesticides. Not sure how this is done or who can do it, would probably be a limited field.

As a side note about some things surviving high temps - I remember seeing something about certain plants at least which REQUIRE fires to occur for their seeds to be able to plant and sprout - without the heat from fire they stay dormant. I'd have to think that there are other things out there that may function like this as well. Not to say that baking and boiling doesn't help reduce the likelyhood of problems, but it wouldn't necessarily completely eliminate it....

Hopefully the rest of your T's continue to do well and you don't see any more problems! Sorry to hear about your troubles so far...