- Joined
- Jul 19, 2002
- Messages
- 304
If you had the chance to buy a spider, and you had a choice. $50 or $5. which one would you take?
Price Isn't Everything
- Thread starter xenesthis
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2002
- Messages
- 3,783
I don't really buy the whole 'junk spider' argument that I've heard dealers use here and on Petbugs in similar threads. The only people whose perceptions of tarantula values could possibly affect the market are those of us who buy a lot of tarantulas. If Joe "I just want a big, hairy spider" Bob picks up a $5 G. pulchra at the swap and subsequently doesn't take care of it or later laughs when he sees one for sale at $50, who cares? He wasn't going to be buying any more tarantulas anyhow. Conversely, if I see some guy with $5 G. pulchra's, I'm going to hit the ATM and grab a bunch because I love the spider and I would be well aware of exactly how good of a deal I'm getting. Sure, Swift and the like will not be getting $30-$40 from me personally, but my purchasing of them is not going to affect the general market in any way, shape, or form.
My freebie curly sling gets the same care as my $45 G. pulchra. Now, admittedly, if my curly died I would not be nearly as upset as if my pulchra died but that's more because I only have one pulchra and I know that replacing it in my collection would cost me a lot more than getting another curly if I wanted one. There are no 'junk spiders', just inexpensive versus expensive and those of us who are in the hobby for the long haul and not just grabbing up a tarantula for the novelty know the difference even if we do occasionally grab up some bargains.
I find the whole argument tantamount to asking for price fixing. The quality dealers should charge whatever allows them to remain in business and keep such varied and interesting stock lists. I understand why John Hoke or Kelly Swift charge what they do - and if I really want a particular spider that they have I will pay a fair price from them depending on circumstances. OTOH, when they, or Todd, comes down on someone for selling spiders for far less than they can really afford to I just don't get it. For better or worse, it's an open, capitalist market - if species disappear from the market because that's what buyers do, so be it, no one is hurt besides us people with several tarantulas and, again, we know enough to support the quality dealers when it's in our interest as well as theirs.
My freebie curly sling gets the same care as my $45 G. pulchra. Now, admittedly, if my curly died I would not be nearly as upset as if my pulchra died but that's more because I only have one pulchra and I know that replacing it in my collection would cost me a lot more than getting another curly if I wanted one. There are no 'junk spiders', just inexpensive versus expensive and those of us who are in the hobby for the long haul and not just grabbing up a tarantula for the novelty know the difference even if we do occasionally grab up some bargains.
I find the whole argument tantamount to asking for price fixing. The quality dealers should charge whatever allows them to remain in business and keep such varied and interesting stock lists. I understand why John Hoke or Kelly Swift charge what they do - and if I really want a particular spider that they have I will pay a fair price from them depending on circumstances. OTOH, when they, or Todd, comes down on someone for selling spiders for far less than they can really afford to I just don't get it. For better or worse, it's an open, capitalist market - if species disappear from the market because that's what buyers do, so be it, no one is hurt besides us people with several tarantulas and, again, we know enough to support the quality dealers when it's in our interest as well as theirs.
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2002
- Messages
- 1,250
Very well stated, C_M.
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2002
- Messages
- 2,000
@ Code_Monkey
Another very well stated viewpoint. )
@ King Looey
The discussion isn't whether or not we would prefer to purchase a spider at $5 or at $50. I'm sure most of us would prefer to spend the $5. What we're discussing here is what effect those $5. spiders have on the market value of said species in general.
@ All
My personal opinion is that the occasional $5. fire sale is actually a good thing for the hobby. As most of us know, it only takes one T to start us on a probable life long addiction.
Think about this:
You're walking around a reptile show. You just spent about $800 dollars on some rare colubrid species. You have about $10 left in your pocket after shelling out the $800 and another $100 on all the appropriate equipment for your new snake. As you're walking out of the show with your purchase, you pass by a lonely T dealer with a bunch of spiderlings, juveniles and adults on the table. You figure you'll stop and take a look. I mean they're only bugs, how much could they cost? While you're browsing you notice a lovely M. robustum adult.
"How much is that one?"
"$300., but I have slings for $100." as the dealer points to this itty bitty 3/4 inch sling.
"Wow, too rich for my blood"
Looking around a bit more till your eyes come to rest on a lovely P. fasciata adult
"What about that one?"
"Oh, that ones a mature female, she's $175., I also have slings, They're $35."
"Damn, still more than I want to pay"
Looking around some more, you come to this gorgeous Jet Black beauty.
"How about for that one there?"
"Oh, that's a Grammastola pulchra or Brazilian Black. Another mature female, and a proven breeder she's $150. On the other hand, I have about 300 slings that I'm trying to move. They normally go for $40, but I can sell you one for a fire sale price of $5.00"
"I'll take one."
Now what else comes from this. You go home and look up some information on the web for how to take care of his new addition. While going through the myriad pages, you find out about online dealers and see that this guys prices are right up there with all the online dealers and that you got a great bargain. You fall in love with your new T, but still remember the others that you looked at. Soon you decide you want to get one of the others that you had looked at. You go to the online site of the dealer and start ordering at the normal prices as you know they won't be that much cheaper if you wait for the next show.
So what really happened here is that you created your own market by selling that one itty bitty sling for $5.00. Down the line, you're gonna wind up purchasing way too many spiders from that dealer and others that you find that have what you want. Of course you're also going to show off your new addition to all your friends and there's probably one or two out of them that might be sufficiently intrigued to go out and get their own. So they ask you what the normal prices are and you tell them and rub in their faces that you got one for $5. bucks and still they go out and spend the $40 on a sling of their own because they have to have one too and that is the going price for them.
And thus you propagate the hobby.
My story isn't that much different than this one, just subtract the colubrid from it. I had my first t for 9 years before I got a second one. Then I went to a reptile show and had to have a greenbottle blue and a versicolor. Then I went to the next show and had to pick up some more. Then, I couldn't wait for the next reptile show and had to order some that I had to have from Kelly. So forth and so on and now I'm up to 80+ T's, 12 + Centipedes, 2 scorpions and one Website (that I hope all of you are getting enjoyment out of).
Sorry about the book, but I hope you enjoyed reading it. ;P
Scott
Another very well stated viewpoint. )
@ King Looey
The discussion isn't whether or not we would prefer to purchase a spider at $5 or at $50. I'm sure most of us would prefer to spend the $5. What we're discussing here is what effect those $5. spiders have on the market value of said species in general.
@ All
My personal opinion is that the occasional $5. fire sale is actually a good thing for the hobby. As most of us know, it only takes one T to start us on a probable life long addiction.
Think about this:
You're walking around a reptile show. You just spent about $800 dollars on some rare colubrid species. You have about $10 left in your pocket after shelling out the $800 and another $100 on all the appropriate equipment for your new snake. As you're walking out of the show with your purchase, you pass by a lonely T dealer with a bunch of spiderlings, juveniles and adults on the table. You figure you'll stop and take a look. I mean they're only bugs, how much could they cost? While you're browsing you notice a lovely M. robustum adult.
"How much is that one?"
"$300., but I have slings for $100." as the dealer points to this itty bitty 3/4 inch sling.
"Wow, too rich for my blood"
Looking around a bit more till your eyes come to rest on a lovely P. fasciata adult
"What about that one?"
"Oh, that ones a mature female, she's $175., I also have slings, They're $35."
"Damn, still more than I want to pay"
Looking around some more, you come to this gorgeous Jet Black beauty.
"How about for that one there?"
"Oh, that's a Grammastola pulchra or Brazilian Black. Another mature female, and a proven breeder she's $150. On the other hand, I have about 300 slings that I'm trying to move. They normally go for $40, but I can sell you one for a fire sale price of $5.00"
"I'll take one."
Now what else comes from this. You go home and look up some information on the web for how to take care of his new addition. While going through the myriad pages, you find out about online dealers and see that this guys prices are right up there with all the online dealers and that you got a great bargain. You fall in love with your new T, but still remember the others that you looked at. Soon you decide you want to get one of the others that you had looked at. You go to the online site of the dealer and start ordering at the normal prices as you know they won't be that much cheaper if you wait for the next show.
So what really happened here is that you created your own market by selling that one itty bitty sling for $5.00. Down the line, you're gonna wind up purchasing way too many spiders from that dealer and others that you find that have what you want. Of course you're also going to show off your new addition to all your friends and there's probably one or two out of them that might be sufficiently intrigued to go out and get their own. So they ask you what the normal prices are and you tell them and rub in their faces that you got one for $5. bucks and still they go out and spend the $40 on a sling of their own because they have to have one too and that is the going price for them.
And thus you propagate the hobby.
My story isn't that much different than this one, just subtract the colubrid from it. I had my first t for 9 years before I got a second one. Then I went to a reptile show and had to have a greenbottle blue and a versicolor. Then I went to the next show and had to pick up some more. Then, I couldn't wait for the next reptile show and had to order some that I had to have from Kelly. So forth and so on and now I'm up to 80+ T's, 12 + Centipedes, 2 scorpions and one Website (that I hope all of you are getting enjoyment out of).
Sorry about the book, but I hope you enjoyed reading it. ;P
Scott
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2002
- Messages
- 1,031
I just wanted to say that it is very refreshing to see everyone posting their views in a respectful and non flaming manner!
Ed
Ed
U
Ultimate Instar
Guest
In all fairness, I should first state that I am lucky to be able to afford almost any critter and that I buy my Ts from John Hoke.
I tend to agree with Todd's argument, that cheap prices devalue the perception of an animal's worth. This can have very serious consequences for the survival of a species. For example, Epipedobates (sp.?) tricolor, a poison dart frog that is now extinct in the wild. Initially, this frog was available for low prices. As a consequence, relatively few people bred them since there is a fair amount of work and expense to gather eggs, raise up tadpoles and then house the frogs properly. Whereupon, when the global amphibian decline hit and the frog disappeared in the wild, very few people had them. Given the limited number of bloodlines, the animal will probably go extinct in less than ten years.
If people want to preserve captive populations, they need to keep a stud book on their animals. As far as I know, John Hoke is the only dealer who does this. And yes, I do record the serial number on the Ts that I buy from him. I also downloaded his breeding records from his website. BTW, people really ought to read it, there's a lot of useful information there.
Anyway, this is my argument for buying quality animals for a reasonable price. If the selling price is too low, very few people will try to breed them.
Karen N.
I tend to agree with Todd's argument, that cheap prices devalue the perception of an animal's worth. This can have very serious consequences for the survival of a species. For example, Epipedobates (sp.?) tricolor, a poison dart frog that is now extinct in the wild. Initially, this frog was available for low prices. As a consequence, relatively few people bred them since there is a fair amount of work and expense to gather eggs, raise up tadpoles and then house the frogs properly. Whereupon, when the global amphibian decline hit and the frog disappeared in the wild, very few people had them. Given the limited number of bloodlines, the animal will probably go extinct in less than ten years.
If people want to preserve captive populations, they need to keep a stud book on their animals. As far as I know, John Hoke is the only dealer who does this. And yes, I do record the serial number on the Ts that I buy from him. I also downloaded his breeding records from his website. BTW, people really ought to read it, there's a lot of useful information there.
Anyway, this is my argument for buying quality animals for a reasonable price. If the selling price is too low, very few people will try to breed them.
Karen N.
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2002
- Messages
- 2,929
I remember a couple of years ago there were rumblings about some dealers getting together and deciding not to breed certain species until the prices go up, or at least agreeing not to sell below a set price. This was in response to other dealers who were supposedly ruining the hobby by underpricing. Lots of folks got bent out of shape, worrying that suddenly prices would skyrocket and they wouldn't be able to get affordable T's anymore.
I found both sides of this argument hilarious. First off, any dealers that were dumb enough to participate in the proposed "Tarantula Cartel" would have been the ones who got screwed. Think about it, suppose McDonalds and Burger King got together and decided that the price of hamburgers was too low, and agreed to a fixed, artificially high price. This of course would produce a great opprotunity to their competitors to easily undersell them, they'd be out of business in a month. And you can be sure ther'd be no shortage of cheap hamburgers! Cartels only work when EVERYONE participates, and since you'd never get all the dealers to agree to it (not to mention hobbyist breeders) it would never work. Of course, these sorts of cartels a illegal in the US, but I doubt the feds are that concerned with the tarantula market!
Complaining about price fluctuations (of tarantulas, hamburgers, toothbrushes, hockey pucks, whatever) in a free market economy is like complaining about the sun coming up and going down. People hate to talk about tarantulas as "comodities" because they're living things and we love them, but face it, we're buying, selling and trading them, and we even admit that some species have higher monetary value than others. What does that make them? Supply and demand is going to determine price. If someone greatly underprices something, they're either stupid and won't be in business long or else they have their reasons (promotional, stock reduction etc), but it doesn't mean the sky is falling.
Wade
I found both sides of this argument hilarious. First off, any dealers that were dumb enough to participate in the proposed "Tarantula Cartel" would have been the ones who got screwed. Think about it, suppose McDonalds and Burger King got together and decided that the price of hamburgers was too low, and agreed to a fixed, artificially high price. This of course would produce a great opprotunity to their competitors to easily undersell them, they'd be out of business in a month. And you can be sure ther'd be no shortage of cheap hamburgers! Cartels only work when EVERYONE participates, and since you'd never get all the dealers to agree to it (not to mention hobbyist breeders) it would never work. Of course, these sorts of cartels a illegal in the US, but I doubt the feds are that concerned with the tarantula market!
Complaining about price fluctuations (of tarantulas, hamburgers, toothbrushes, hockey pucks, whatever) in a free market economy is like complaining about the sun coming up and going down. People hate to talk about tarantulas as "comodities" because they're living things and we love them, but face it, we're buying, selling and trading them, and we even admit that some species have higher monetary value than others. What does that make them? Supply and demand is going to determine price. If someone greatly underprices something, they're either stupid and won't be in business long or else they have their reasons (promotional, stock reduction etc), but it doesn't mean the sky is falling.
Wade
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2002
- Messages
- 2,000
Hey Karen,
I think you also raise some valid points, but it seemed to me that Todd was referring to one dealer who had a sac hatch out that was selling at these cheap prices. This is not an everyday occurence. I agree with you that if all the dealers suddenly started selling certain species at cutthroat prices it could damage the viability of said species in captivity once that wellspring dried up. I don't forsee dealers selling their wares at a loss happening at any time in the near future though.
Scott
I think you also raise some valid points, but it seemed to me that Todd was referring to one dealer who had a sac hatch out that was selling at these cheap prices. This is not an everyday occurence. I agree with you that if all the dealers suddenly started selling certain species at cutthroat prices it could damage the viability of said species in captivity once that wellspring dried up. I don't forsee dealers selling their wares at a loss happening at any time in the near future though.
Scott
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2002
- Messages
- 3,783
Exactly, a long-term dealer has to sell Ts at a certain value because he needs to pay overhead and make sure he can still do this a year into the future. While it might be good to undercut the competition by some value, force the major dealers into a price war and many would simply disappear. Any dealer who's stock is large enough to be considered a major player knows that this isn't really in his interest. Tarantulas have to come from somewhere and the breeding programs of some of the dealers are a major source as well as the hobbyist who breeds because he knows he can move 100 slings to Kelly of a high demand species for a fair value because Kelly in turn can sell them for a higher value on the market. It's a finely balanced competition where tipping it too far one way or the other would indeed spell doom and gloom for the marketplace and for us hobbyists.
BUT, there has to be a mechanism in place to drastically change market perceptions. Todd, Kelly, Darrin, and John aren't going to start trying to undercut the other guys out of business if for no other reason than I suspect that their profit margins are already too low to be trying do such a thing. If the dealers whose web pages we all go to the most aren't going to drastically alter their prices, how does this hypothetical devaluation in the minds of the consumer ever take place?
It's a niche hobby, with niche dealers. When I was into comics, I knew I could go to a con and pick up a bunch of recent back issues for $0.25 each, that didn't mean I figured I was getting ripped off if my normal store tried to charge me $1.00 for that same issue I could get for $0.25 if I hunted. One scenario required me to go to a con, pay a fee, walk around digging through boxes - the other required me to head for my pleasant, regular shop and browse in the pleasant atmosphere.
I simply cannot believe that the hard core tarantula fans are so uneducated that one or two dealers could change the perceptions of the people who keep the long term dealers afloat in the first place.
BUT, there has to be a mechanism in place to drastically change market perceptions. Todd, Kelly, Darrin, and John aren't going to start trying to undercut the other guys out of business if for no other reason than I suspect that their profit margins are already too low to be trying do such a thing. If the dealers whose web pages we all go to the most aren't going to drastically alter their prices, how does this hypothetical devaluation in the minds of the consumer ever take place?
It's a niche hobby, with niche dealers. When I was into comics, I knew I could go to a con and pick up a bunch of recent back issues for $0.25 each, that didn't mean I figured I was getting ripped off if my normal store tried to charge me $1.00 for that same issue I could get for $0.25 if I hunted. One scenario required me to go to a con, pay a fee, walk around digging through boxes - the other required me to head for my pleasant, regular shop and browse in the pleasant atmosphere.
I simply cannot believe that the hard core tarantula fans are so uneducated that one or two dealers could change the perceptions of the people who keep the long term dealers afloat in the first place.
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2002
- Messages
- 344
Not Breeding Cheap Spiders?
Regarding not breeding cheap species, I think it is probably true that most advanced hobbyists would prefer to breed, say, P. subfusca over G. rosea. That said, there are a lot of 'newer' hobbyists who, not owning many of the rarer species, are more than content to start their breeding efforts with lower-end spiders. Right now, my breeding project includes G. rosea and C. lamanai. Both are readily available as large subadults or adults for under $30 (I have not checked online but this is true for local dealers). Their price value doesn't interest me; getting more bloodlines of captive-bred spiders onto the market does.
Regarding not breeding cheap species, I think it is probably true that most advanced hobbyists would prefer to breed, say, P. subfusca over G. rosea. That said, there are a lot of 'newer' hobbyists who, not owning many of the rarer species, are more than content to start their breeding efforts with lower-end spiders. Right now, my breeding project includes G. rosea and C. lamanai. Both are readily available as large subadults or adults for under $30 (I have not checked online but this is true for local dealers). Their price value doesn't interest me; getting more bloodlines of captive-bred spiders onto the market does.
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2002
- Messages
- 556
First I want to echo one of the many other posts and say that it is nice that we can all discuss this in a polite manner without any flaming.
Second - I think there is a point that hasn't been clearly made yet. Yes - if I go to the reptile show this weekend and find $5.00 G.pulchras and $10.00 red knees I will snatch a bunch of them up. No - that will not prevent me from ordering more of the same and different types from my favorite dealers. I feel a wonderful sense of excitement when I find a great bargain at the show but I also feel a sense of loyalty to those dealers who are reputable, honest and work hard to further this hobby with captive breeding. Sure, I'll probably pay more for most of the specimens I order in the mail from the top three, maybe even a lot more, but I also know that each purchase I make is helping to keep those dealers in a position where they can continue captive breeding efforts and that, for me, is what it all comes down to. In our life times we will see most of the rainforests gone and with them all the species. If we don't support our breeders/dealers the only chance for many species survival is going to be gone.
So, yes, I love a great deal and won't pass one up if it comes my way but it will never keep me from ordering quality captive bred from the people who are the backbone of this hobby.
Gail
Second - I think there is a point that hasn't been clearly made yet. Yes - if I go to the reptile show this weekend and find $5.00 G.pulchras and $10.00 red knees I will snatch a bunch of them up. No - that will not prevent me from ordering more of the same and different types from my favorite dealers. I feel a wonderful sense of excitement when I find a great bargain at the show but I also feel a sense of loyalty to those dealers who are reputable, honest and work hard to further this hobby with captive breeding. Sure, I'll probably pay more for most of the specimens I order in the mail from the top three, maybe even a lot more, but I also know that each purchase I make is helping to keep those dealers in a position where they can continue captive breeding efforts and that, for me, is what it all comes down to. In our life times we will see most of the rainforests gone and with them all the species. If we don't support our breeders/dealers the only chance for many species survival is going to be gone.
So, yes, I love a great deal and won't pass one up if it comes my way but it will never keep me from ordering quality captive bred from the people who are the backbone of this hobby.
Gail
>>>The key is to always have proper food for many different sized animals<<<
That is for sure and I learned this the hard way...A fricken CRICKET killed and ate part of my baby Cobalt....so I feed that cricket to the biggest bad Girl I had.....and I enjoyed it!!!!
First Boris then this!!!!
Bad week for T's at my house...grrrrrrrr
Red
That is for sure and I learned this the hard way...A fricken CRICKET killed and ate part of my baby Cobalt....so I feed that cricket to the biggest bad Girl I had.....and I enjoyed it!!!!
First Boris then this!!!!
Bad week for T's at my house...grrrrrrrr
Red
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2002
- Messages
- 1,198
I agree with both sides of this debate.
While I like the deals I can get at trade shows and online (from reliable breeders, I'm loyal to just a few), I do worry about how lowering the prices of common tarantula species affects the care they're given by their new owners, especially people who aren't spider hobbyists. I've literally heard people at shows remark that "if this thing dies, I'm only out ten bucks." It makes me sick to think of people relating an animal's life to how much it cost them to obtain it.
However, much of my collection is made up of less expensive Ts because I live on a college student's budget. If it weren't for the $20 and under spiderlings and the occasional sales, I wouldn't be able to own so many beautiful specimens. All of my babies, regardless of their initial cost, receive the same loving care. Maybe, as hobbyists, we can exert influence on a person-to-person basis when our friends ask us which spider they should choose for a starter tarantula. I know that I've talked to complete strangers at trade shows and convinced them that they'd be happier with the "boring" G. rosea as a pet than the H. lividum next to it. My friends have all met my spiders and I've had several tell me that if they were going to buy a pet tarantula, they'd choose a G. rosea or B. albopilosum because they're much calmer than my other Ts (most of which are baboon spiders or birdeaters). If we, as hobbyists and breeders, see the value in these animals, we can then pass that along to newcomers and help reduce the "I'm only out ten bucks" syndrome.
While I like the deals I can get at trade shows and online (from reliable breeders, I'm loyal to just a few), I do worry about how lowering the prices of common tarantula species affects the care they're given by their new owners, especially people who aren't spider hobbyists. I've literally heard people at shows remark that "if this thing dies, I'm only out ten bucks." It makes me sick to think of people relating an animal's life to how much it cost them to obtain it.
However, much of my collection is made up of less expensive Ts because I live on a college student's budget. If it weren't for the $20 and under spiderlings and the occasional sales, I wouldn't be able to own so many beautiful specimens. All of my babies, regardless of their initial cost, receive the same loving care. Maybe, as hobbyists, we can exert influence on a person-to-person basis when our friends ask us which spider they should choose for a starter tarantula. I know that I've talked to complete strangers at trade shows and convinced them that they'd be happier with the "boring" G. rosea as a pet than the H. lividum next to it. My friends have all met my spiders and I've had several tell me that if they were going to buy a pet tarantula, they'd choose a G. rosea or B. albopilosum because they're much calmer than my other Ts (most of which are baboon spiders or birdeaters). If we, as hobbyists and breeders, see the value in these animals, we can then pass that along to newcomers and help reduce the "I'm only out ten bucks" syndrome.
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2002
- Messages
- 1,328
My 2 cents...
I have to take the side of Todd and Kelly here as I just hate to see a species dropped so drastically in price. Here's the problem I see that seems to have gone unmentioned for the most part. The devaluing that everyone seems to think is make believe or rather perception alone is quite real. Once someone has sold a species for $5 it makes it a tad hard to ask normal market for it afterwards because everyone has already seen it for $5 so you are suddenly overpriced and trying to rip someone off. Not to mention that these things aren't produced as easily as this thread would lead one to believe. Fact is Tarantula breeding is still hit and miss. Kelly will tell you that and his hit percentage is pretty darn high but still not too many have done pulchra yet and once the incentive to be able to make a couple of bucks is gone even fewer will try resulting in less and less of them out there to go around. Is this really a good thing.
Now this is the part where the hobbiest side of me gets into it. When I buy a super rare pricey as crap spider because I want to have what few will shell out the coin for the last thing I want is someone coming in and selling them for half what I paid. Not only does this suck for the market but it sucks for Joe Blow whos pulchra is now after years of raising it monetarily not worth squat. Now I know this is overdramatized and the pulchra market is far from dead but what I'm saying is that it isn't good for the hobby in the long run.
I mean be honest regardless of what you collect don't you long for the rare more expensive ones? Would a Ferrari still be as cool if they were the price of a KIA? I think not.
Phil
I have to take the side of Todd and Kelly here as I just hate to see a species dropped so drastically in price. Here's the problem I see that seems to have gone unmentioned for the most part. The devaluing that everyone seems to think is make believe or rather perception alone is quite real. Once someone has sold a species for $5 it makes it a tad hard to ask normal market for it afterwards because everyone has already seen it for $5 so you are suddenly overpriced and trying to rip someone off. Not to mention that these things aren't produced as easily as this thread would lead one to believe. Fact is Tarantula breeding is still hit and miss. Kelly will tell you that and his hit percentage is pretty darn high but still not too many have done pulchra yet and once the incentive to be able to make a couple of bucks is gone even fewer will try resulting in less and less of them out there to go around. Is this really a good thing.
Now this is the part where the hobbiest side of me gets into it. When I buy a super rare pricey as crap spider because I want to have what few will shell out the coin for the last thing I want is someone coming in and selling them for half what I paid. Not only does this suck for the market but it sucks for Joe Blow whos pulchra is now after years of raising it monetarily not worth squat. Now I know this is overdramatized and the pulchra market is far from dead but what I'm saying is that it isn't good for the hobby in the long run.
I mean be honest regardless of what you collect don't you long for the rare more expensive ones? Would a Ferrari still be as cool if they were the price of a KIA? I think not.
Phil
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2002
- Messages
- 3,783
Call me nutty, but I have to disagree. The real hobbyists know exactly how frequent/infrequent given established species are on the market. Pulchra's are damned hard to breed or I wouldn't have had to buy a teeny one from John Hoke for $45 earlier this year when he was one of only two major dealers with them in stock (which he had to import from a European breeder). Whether I see someone selling some for $5 or not, I'm well aware of their hit and miss breedability.
Now, too rapid of depreciation can and has harmed the availibility of *new* species to the market, but only because no one ever had a chance to get a feeling for their 'actual' value. The Cobalt Redrump you like to bring up as an example is a good one. However, if I recall the details this one disappeared not because the value was dropping but because the dealers tried to raise the value by not breeding it. The value never went up and the supply was cut off from the importers, now they're virtually gone from the hobby. The problem, though, wasn't a market that devalued the spider but dealers who thought they could control the market.
Now, too rapid of depreciation can and has harmed the availibility of *new* species to the market, but only because no one ever had a chance to get a feeling for their 'actual' value. The Cobalt Redrump you like to bring up as an example is a good one. However, if I recall the details this one disappeared not because the value was dropping but because the dealers tried to raise the value by not breeding it. The value never went up and the supply was cut off from the importers, now they're virtually gone from the hobby. The problem, though, wasn't a market that devalued the spider but dealers who thought they could control the market.
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2002
- Messages
- 344
I agree entirely with Code_Monkey on that point. I know very well that the places I get my Ts from are diverse and that even with one pet store location, several different wholesalers are being dealt with. I recognise prices, species availability, etc., as a case-by-case basis. A shipment of this comes in, a shipment of that, 3 months later the first one is back, etc. The prices vary and while I may be pleased to get something cheap one day, I know that another day 3 months down the road different circumstances may create a different price.
I also can't click with the car example, partly because I'm not really into cars (my wife asked me what kind of car I'd like to get; in response I listed my requirements: that it drive, that the brakes function, that the car not explode when the key is turned in the ignition) but also partly because a gorgeous red-morph G. rosea or a B. vagans or an A. moderatum are plenty pretty and desirable species to own as many higher-priced Ts. There are a fair share of rare, expensive Ts out there, some I want and some I don't. I base my 'wishlist' on whether the spider interests me, not on whether it is rare or expensive.
Adrian
I also can't click with the car example, partly because I'm not really into cars (my wife asked me what kind of car I'd like to get; in response I listed my requirements: that it drive, that the brakes function, that the car not explode when the key is turned in the ignition) but also partly because a gorgeous red-morph G. rosea or a B. vagans or an A. moderatum are plenty pretty and desirable species to own as many higher-priced Ts. There are a fair share of rare, expensive Ts out there, some I want and some I don't. I base my 'wishlist' on whether the spider interests me, not on whether it is rare or expensive.
Adrian
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2002
- Messages
- 3,783
Yours and my car requirements sound about the same
I've seen Phillip's comments about how he's happier to have a particular species because it's not common on his website, and then there's the Ferrari comment above. I just don't relate to that mindset at all. Frankly, I'd take a nice hatchback or stationwagon over a Ferrari any day of the week. A Ferrari means nothing to me as a car. I don't really give a rat's butt about market perceptions of value beyond what it means I will have to pay for what I want.
My favorite T is a B. smithi, not at all uncommon and not particularly pricey. I also love plain old pink toes, definitely not pricey. In fact, I'd rather have a pink toe than an M. robustum. And what is arguably the most popular and loved T, the G. rosea (which I don't care a bit for) is dirt cheap. My favorite Ts are all relatively inexpensive and easy to care for - I'll leave the mega expensive, more difficult species to someone who cares about those things. Just like Ferrari's
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2002
- Messages
- 1,328
you're missing my point...
What I'm trying to say is apparantly being taken out of context. The point I am trying to make is that regardless of what you collect ( and if you have several instead of a couple that is a collection ) be it baseball cards, comic books, cars, nudie books, spiders, whatever dont the harder to obtain types of what you collect interest you? I mean come on what makes T aphophysis so much more special than a blondi? They are both big and brown, both flick wicked hair, looks are real similar so why is blondi cheaper? Now I know that more of them are available but my point is that if no one ever paid the way high price on the aphophysis then the price would eventually come down as people got tired of hanging on to them and wanted to get what they could for them. What makes them sell is the rarity and rarity is worth more period. In my eyes are they worth it? Well I don't have one and don't really want one now so no they aren't to me.
I just can't see the world where all the spiders available are the same $5 being that ideal. I mean sure I would love to have them all and get them for nothing but come on we are already talking about spiders here which by the way is by far the cheapest of the exotic pets. Be realistic for a second here the highest spider out there is what maybe $250 to $300 sound about right? How many snakes cost tons more than that? How cheap is cheap enough?
See that's what I see as being the biggest problem overall is everyone wants to have everything out there but no one wants to actually pay for any of it. I have kept snakes for far longer than spiders and when I 1st got into spiders I heard a lot of wow that's a lot of money for one spider. I still hear this a lot but you know what it's really not that much. If you're so close to broke that a $50 spider will crush you but you can afford a $20 do you really need to be buying one in the 1st place? I know I won't let myself cut it that close.
On another point I never implied that the less expensive species deserved or received any less care. I care for all my animals the same as you should too. Here's my cheap ol curlyhair and no I do not see her as less worthy she kicks butt.
Phil
What I'm trying to say is apparantly being taken out of context. The point I am trying to make is that regardless of what you collect ( and if you have several instead of a couple that is a collection ) be it baseball cards, comic books, cars, nudie books, spiders, whatever dont the harder to obtain types of what you collect interest you? I mean come on what makes T aphophysis so much more special than a blondi? They are both big and brown, both flick wicked hair, looks are real similar so why is blondi cheaper? Now I know that more of them are available but my point is that if no one ever paid the way high price on the aphophysis then the price would eventually come down as people got tired of hanging on to them and wanted to get what they could for them. What makes them sell is the rarity and rarity is worth more period. In my eyes are they worth it? Well I don't have one and don't really want one now so no they aren't to me.
I just can't see the world where all the spiders available are the same $5 being that ideal. I mean sure I would love to have them all and get them for nothing but come on we are already talking about spiders here which by the way is by far the cheapest of the exotic pets. Be realistic for a second here the highest spider out there is what maybe $250 to $300 sound about right? How many snakes cost tons more than that? How cheap is cheap enough?
See that's what I see as being the biggest problem overall is everyone wants to have everything out there but no one wants to actually pay for any of it. I have kept snakes for far longer than spiders and when I 1st got into spiders I heard a lot of wow that's a lot of money for one spider. I still hear this a lot but you know what it's really not that much. If you're so close to broke that a $50 spider will crush you but you can afford a $20 do you really need to be buying one in the 1st place? I know I won't let myself cut it that close.
On another point I never implied that the less expensive species deserved or received any less care. I care for all my animals the same as you should too. Here's my cheap ol curlyhair and no I do not see her as less worthy she kicks butt.
Phil
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2002
- Messages
- 4,341
Philip,
I don't know about the harder to get (thus more expensive, generaly) species interesting me more. I would say, however, that the more interesting species are generaly harder to get. I'm not really much of a T guy, so if you don't mind I'm going to talk scorpion for a bit.
You can get Pandinus imperator (emperor scorpions) for a whistle. The retail prices are pretty low, and the wholesale is insane. They are still a really nice scorpion, though. They are the G.rosea of the scorpion world, and there are really good reasons why both are popular. I don't have a single one. Never have. May at some point, but they don't really excite me that much.
Now, compare this to Parabuthis transvaalicus. I have just bought two of these and they should be arriving mid-week. They are a much more advanced scorpion -- not everyone can keep them succesfuly, they are quite dangerous, breeding them is apparently somewhat difficult. Needless to say, they are harder to get than P.imperator and cost substantialy more (about 7x the cost).
Now compare this to something that doesn't even make it onto the price list. One of these days I expect to be able to get my hands on a species that really hasn't hit the market yet. It will probably cost me a lot.
Do I value the expensive scorpions more than the cheap ones because they are more expensive? No. Do I value the more expensive ones more than the cheap ones because they are generaly trickier, more challenging species? Because I get to discover things that very few peopel have discovered before me (and potentialy something no one has ever discovered). Yes.
Now, that being said, I don't provide better care to the tricky ones and the inexpensive ones still get my attention. On the T front, my G.rosea don't take a back-seat to anyone. I really, really like these spiders. They have a different kind of value to me than my fancier spiders. That different value makes me enjoy the ones I have, but not go "oooooooh" when they appear on a price list.
Cheers,
Dave
I don't know about the harder to get (thus more expensive, generaly) species interesting me more. I would say, however, that the more interesting species are generaly harder to get. I'm not really much of a T guy, so if you don't mind I'm going to talk scorpion for a bit.
You can get Pandinus imperator (emperor scorpions) for a whistle. The retail prices are pretty low, and the wholesale is insane. They are still a really nice scorpion, though. They are the G.rosea of the scorpion world, and there are really good reasons why both are popular. I don't have a single one. Never have. May at some point, but they don't really excite me that much.
Now, compare this to Parabuthis transvaalicus. I have just bought two of these and they should be arriving mid-week. They are a much more advanced scorpion -- not everyone can keep them succesfuly, they are quite dangerous, breeding them is apparently somewhat difficult. Needless to say, they are harder to get than P.imperator and cost substantialy more (about 7x the cost).
Now compare this to something that doesn't even make it onto the price list. One of these days I expect to be able to get my hands on a species that really hasn't hit the market yet. It will probably cost me a lot.
Do I value the expensive scorpions more than the cheap ones because they are more expensive? No. Do I value the more expensive ones more than the cheap ones because they are generaly trickier, more challenging species? Because I get to discover things that very few peopel have discovered before me (and potentialy something no one has ever discovered). Yes.
Now, that being said, I don't provide better care to the tricky ones and the inexpensive ones still get my attention. On the T front, my G.rosea don't take a back-seat to anyone. I really, really like these spiders. They have a different kind of value to me than my fancier spiders. That different value makes me enjoy the ones I have, but not go "oooooooh" when they appear on a price list.
Cheers,
Dave