Potential hobby setbacks

[Chris LXXIX]

As for Brazil going after individuals- they have the legal right to do so.

Do you think they will really end in trouble? I mean, on the U.S side, with a joint-operation of Brazilian and U.S officers and things like that, or it's only a fine issue, at the end?

Any tarantula endemic to Brazil alone is in the same boat.

I call this the "Revenge of Lasiodora parahybana". That poor, lovely clumsy hairy spider, always considered as cheap crap even by the most hardcore cheapskate, now, can rejoice: she's Brazilian

 

[Venom1080]

I call this the "Revenge of Lasiodora parahybana". That poor, lovely clumsy hairy spider, always considered as cheap crap even by the most hardcore cheapskate, now, can rejoice: she's Brazilian

Also native to more than Brazil I think. Prices won't change at all I bet.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Also native to more than Brazil I think. Prices won't change at all I bet.

No, heresy!

You wouldn't ruin the Lasiodora parahybana dream of becoming a priced spider! Also, parahybana is 101% Brazil name: Sherlock's proof

Below, the main theme of the people that wanted to import spiders from Brazil v

ih ih jok

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

If it is true that Brazil is taking stricter actions to protect their endemic species from being collected and sold on the pet trade, then that would be a good thing. That is pretty cool that Brazil raised hell in closing an apparent loophole. Since it has been pointed out, it makes sense how captive born descendants of illegally collected wild caught spiders would also be illegal. That removes any and all benefit of taking the risk of smuggling in the first place. The concept seems similar to how selling and receiving stolen goods is illegal along with the act of stealing in the first place.

I personally don't feel bad for anyone who lost money in buying these spiders. The whole thing surrounding the availability of Typhochlaena species in the pet trade, and the recent article(s) describing their habitat, were quite suspicious in my opinion. Even if the importation of captive bred babies from a European country is legal, there are ethical considerations when it comes to buying babies of a highly endemic species of a country known to take their wildlife conservation very seriously.

 

[Liquifin]

Yep, this is the start. At some point in time in the future, a lot of T.'s are going to be banned from import. This might just be the start, not to be biased or anything. But the T. hobby is growing, which is going to grab attention of the government. Anything involved in government always end up with the government winning. But i'm not surprised that Brazil did what it did, because it was understanding. I guess all Brazilian T.'s are going to be a bit more expensive on pricing/inflation, but I wonder about how the price of the LP would be affected LOL???

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Yep, this is the start. At some point in time in the future, a lot of T.'s are going to be banned from import.

No, I don't think. Probably not in Europe, and definitely not with the African ones. Think: there's the serious risk of the whole existence of lions and whatnot (trust me, you only need to have the money, know a bit the 'how to' and you can still hunt down - what remained - of the 'Big Five game' in certain African nations) do you think those nations would care about... their native spiders?

But the T. hobby is growing

This is 100% true and, as I've said years ago, a thing that I don't like at all. The arachnid keeping is one of the very, very few things that IMO needs to remain well protected by a low profile attitude, for survive.

I wonder about how the price of the LP would be affected LOL???

She will have, finally, her glory

 

[Arachnophoric]

This doesn’t surprise me at all if true. The original animals obtained were smuggled according to an importer.

There’s many species established in the hobby that were all illegally obtained.

As for Brazil going after individuals- they have the legal right to do so.

If it is true that Brazil is taking stricter actions to protect their endemic species from being collected and sold on the pet trade, then that would be a good thing. That is pretty cool that Brazil raised hell in closing an apparent loophole. Since it has been pointed out, it makes sense how captive born descendants of illegally collected wild caught spiders would also be illegal. That removes any and all benefit of taking the risk of smuggling in the first place. The concept seems similar to how selling and receiving stolen goods is illegal along with the act of stealing in the first place.

I personally don't feel bad for anyone who lost money in buying these spiders. The whole thing surrounding the availability of Typhochlaena species in the pet trade, and the recent article(s) describing their habitat, were quite suspicious in my opinion. Even if the importation of captive bred babies from a European country is legal, there are ethical considerations when it comes to buying babies of a highly endemic species of a country known to take their wildlife conservation very seriously.

Had no clue about all the shady stuff behind this species and it's introduction into the hobby. Very interesting to know and helps put this move by Brazil into better perspective.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Had no clue about all the shady stuff behind this species and it's introduction into the hobby. Very interesting to know and helps put this move by Brazil into better perspective.

I don't know of course what really happened and, frankly, I don't want to further dive into that (ain't exactly a fan of Fashion T's, like T.seladonia are) but you know what I think?

I think that someone pushed a bit (but just a bit, uh ) their smarty-pants attitude and they awakened the dog. In Italy, in regards of certain issue, we say that "no one should awake the sleeping dog"

 

[pocock1899]

Kind of. Recent imports have been seized and Brazil is cracking down on exporting native tarantulas. Any tarantula endemic to Brazil alone is in the same boat.

I'd like to correct a few things from the video. I do work in international import/export, and I do work with USFWS, CBP, CBP/Ag and USDA.

First off this is not a change in Brazilian law. Brazil has never allowed the commercial export of it's spiders. There have been some exemptions for scientific institutions, but T. seladonia have never been legally exported. Ever. That means that any founder stock are poached animals, illegally smuggled out of the country.

The point: Since T. seladonia is ONLY found in Brazil and it's never been legally exported, that means that every single T. seladonia in captivity is the offspring of illegal, smuggled animals.

Everyone needs to wrap their mind around the fact that captive bred spiders are not necessarily legal. You cannot "launder" your smuggled animals by breeding them and selling the offspring. The offspring are just as illegal in the eyes of the law as the founder stock were.

This is where the Lacey Act comes in. The Lacey Act is a big law. Among other things, it covers marking of wildlife shipments, invasive species and transport of wildlife into and through the United States. Under the Lacey Act, "it is unlawful to import, export, sell, acquire, or purchase fish, wildlife or plants that are taken, possessed, transported, or sold: 1) in violation of U.S. or Indian law, or 2) in interstate or foreign commerce involving any fish, wildlife, or plants taken possessed or sold in violation of State or foreign law." Read that last sentence carefully....
This means that if an animal is illegally possessed in violation of foreign (Brazilian) law, then it is unlawful to import it into the United States.

The point: Importing those illegal T. seladonia is unlawful.

Another point, the Lacey Act is only a US law. The import/export of T. seladonia into other countries (not including the US) is up to their laws. Lacey has no effect in any of that long list of countries that you listed.


A few other things you got incorrect in the video:

You mentioned exports. There are probably more exports of animals from the US than into the US.

You referred to the fact that CITES keeps us from shipping Brachypelma. Definitely not true. All Brachypelma are covered under CITES Appendix II. This means that you need an export permit to legally export them from whatever country you are shipping from. In Germany, it costs about $40 for a CITES certificate. In the US, it's about $100. CITES certificates are not really hard to get, just a bit of time and paperwork. You have to prove that they are legally obtained, and the the shipping does not hurt the species. It's really pretty easy in most countries to get a CITES permit. They aren't indicative of an "Endangered" status, it's just that these are species that are being monitored in international trade.

You referred to Poecilotheria as "Endangered". Even though eleven species of Poeciltheria have been submitted (and are under consideration) for the US Endangered Species Act, none are listed. Not Metallica, none of them. ...at least not yet.

You seemed confused about interstate shipping. Don't get the court ruling regarding the Invasive Species aspect of Lacey confused with the transport of illegal animals. It sounds similar, but the court ruling regarding the invasive pythons and CATX rulemaking, has nothing to do with this aspect of Lacey. That's a completely different discussion.

I know there is a lot of confusion about international trade. It's complicated and fraught with technicalities and things you can't anticipate. Unfortunately, that's just the nature of international trade. It's no better if you are selling steel to China, or cheese to Canada. Things change and stuff happens. It's always been this way.

As someone who sees wildlife laws and customs laws enforced every day, I can tell you that you shouldn't be "bent" because it seems (to you) they just started doing this all of a sudden. This stuff every single day. They use Lacey Act all the time. It's just never happened with this particular species. Up until now, the tarantula hobby has mostly been "under the radar." That's no longer the case. It used to be no one really cared or looked closely at spider shipments. Those days are gone.

How many previous shipments do you suppose their were of T. seladonia? I don't know, but I doubt there were more than a handful.

How many animals come into the US every day? Sometimes hundreds of thousands. I've seen many, many shipments with over a thousand inverts or birds or herps in them.

How many USFWS Wildlife Inspectors are in the entire country? About 100 or less, and that is to cover every single port in the country. Compare that to Customs and Border Patrol, and they have almost 100,000 agents and officers.

Think of it like this. Have you ever exceeded the speed limit while driving? How many times have you done it and not gotten caught? When you get caught, it isn't a new law, it isn't a law that they are suddenly enforcing. It's just that you got caught. Sometimes that's how it is when importing/exporting. There are just not enough people to look at every single shipment. I don't know for a fact, but it's entirely within the realm of possibility that this is just the first time that a shipment with T. seladonia was actually inspected.

I feel sorry for the folks that may suffer financial loss from this ordeal. I wish them well and hope they can get a good resolution. I know this sucks for everyone holding T. seladonia.

End of post Rant:
I think this has been a good wakeup for some folks in the Hobby. Those folks that will pay anything for the newest, rarest species out there, but don't ask where it comes from, ...or how it got into the pet trade, or folks who will dealer shop, looking to save a dollar two, but not ask why this dealer is so much cheaper than any other, or people who are willing to brown box, because they feel entitled to every species. These are just a few of the reasons that we are becoming more and more under the watchful eye of the authorities.

I think we are about to see our hobby get the attention that it has probably deserved for some time. I don't think some people are going to like it.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

You referred to the fact that CITES keeps us from shipping Brachypelma. Definitely not true. All Brachypelma are covered under CITES Appendix II. This means that you need an export permit to legally export them from whatever country you are shipping from. In Germany, it costs about $40 for a CITES certificate. In the US, it's about $100. CITES certificates are not really hard to get, just a bit of time and paperwork. You have to prove that they are legally obtained, and the the shipping does not hurt the species. It's really pretty easy in most countries to get a CITES permit. They aren't indicative of an "Endangered" status, it's just that these are species that are being monitored in international trade.

Same for the breeding of Brachypelma spp. and the internal Italian market: here in Italy you have to contact your local area CITES authority, then they will authorize (assuming everything turns fine) the eventually trade/sell of the slings (or for that matter, not so slings).

Here's one of my CITES paper

 

[Veitchiiman13]

I'm actually quite glad to hear that countries are serious about illegal exportation/importation of wildlife. Hopefully this will act as a deterrent for this type of activity going forward, as it seems brown boxing is extremely common in the hobby.

Basically, this species shouldn't have even been in the hobby in the first place, so as far as I'm concerned, USFWS has every right to seize and keep these slings.

 

[viper69]

If it is true that Brazil is taking stricter actions to protect their endemic species from being collected and sold on the pet trade, then that would be a good thing. That is pretty cool that Brazil raised hell in closing an apparent loophole. Since it has been pointed out, it makes sense how captive born descendants of illegally collected wild caught spiders would also be illegal. That removes any and all benefit of taking the risk of smuggling in the first place. The concept seems similar to how selling and receiving stolen goods is illegal along with the act of stealing in the first place.

I personally don't feel bad for anyone who lost money in buying these spiders. The whole thing surrounding the availability of Typhochlaena species in the pet trade, and the recent article(s) describing their habitat, were quite suspicious in my opinion. Even if the importation of captive bred babies from a European country is legal, there are ethical considerations when it comes to buying babies of a highly endemic species of a country known to take their wildlife conservation very seriously.

Haven’t read articles on habitat, what seems odd about them?

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

Haven’t read articles on habitat, what seems odd about them?

I used the word "suspicious", but "odd" is an appropriate word too. Before I elaborate on what I found suspicious about the contents of the article, I have to provide a disclaimer that I do not know the authors or anything about them or their research, I am completely ignorant of Brazilian wildlife import/ export laws, and I am not making any judgements whatsoever on anyone or anything. This is my opinion only. There are no facts here.

With that out of the way, what I found suspicious about the article is that there are pictures of spiderlings of Typhochlaena species in what looks like captivity along with pictures of adults in situ. Thinking while under the impression that Brazil prohibits the collection, molestation, and/ or exportation of their wildlife including spiders without permits, I found it odd that the authors did not include any information about collection or other permits being issued to anyone to make the research possible. The questions that came to mind while reading the article included: where did the spiderlings pictured come from?, who was issued the permit?, was a permit issued at all?, and when it comes down to it, how is such research possible if Brazil is so strict on what one can and can't do with their wildlife? In published academic research, one usually finds collection permit information and in some cases a special thanks to a government institution that allows for the allowing of the research in a protected area along with information on voucher specimens from the area research was undertaken.

I also found it suspicious that the publications of these authors' research in the German Arachnological Society as well as the British Tarantula Society kind of coincided with when the Typhochlaena seladonia spiderlings hit the market. Kind of odd that research on these species which shows pictures of them in the wild as well as captivity happens to be published around the same period of time they hit the pet trade.

Again, I'm not making judgements or jumping to conclusions here, this is just what I found suspicious about the research articles in the context of what I think Brazilian wildlife laws say. Like I said, I am completely ignorant of any international wildlife laws and I have no knowledge regarding these research papers. As far as I know, everything was legal and legit. I am certainly not trying to start rumors.

These are the papers I am referring to.

Andre C. and M. Hüsser (2016). Die Gattung Typhochlaena - Historie und Systematik sowie Habitat und Lebensweise von T. seladonia, T. costae und T. curumim. Arachne 21(3): 4-33.

Andre, C. & Hüsser, M. (2018). About trapdoors and bridges – new insights in the little-known ecology and lifestyle of the genus Typhochlaena C.L. Koch, 1850. Journal of the British Tarantula Society 32(3): 3-29.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Maybe even longer then that if its left to captive breeding efforts...these spiders grow slowly and produce very small sacs, around thirty slings each IIRC.

Hope prob breeders get ahold of this genus then !!!! Breeding is hard, why would Brazil ban export of captive breed? They prob won’t make it in wild anyways

 

[viper69]

Do you think they will really end in trouble? I mean, on the U.S side, with a joint-operation of Brazilian and U.S officers and things like that, or it's only a fine issue, at the end?



I call this the "Revenge of Lasiodora parahybana". That poor, lovely clumsy hairy spider, always considered as cheap crap even by the most hardcore cheapskate, now, can rejoice: she's Brazilian

Yes, with Trump leading the charge!

I don't know, I doubt it, but these days nothing surprises me. But they can do it if they choose to.

I used the word "suspicious", but "odd" is an appropriate word too. Before I elaborate on what I found suspicious about the contents of the article, I have to provide a disclaimer that I do not know the authors or anything about them or their research, I am completely ignorant of Brazilian wildlife import/ export laws, and I am not making any judgements whatsoever on anyone or anything. This is my opinion only. There are no facts here.

With that out of the way, what I found suspicious about the article is that there are pictures of spiderlings of Typhochlaena species in what looks like captivity along with pictures of adults in situ. Thinking while under the impression that Brazil prohibits the collection, molestation, and/ or exportation of their wildlife including spiders without permits, I found it odd that the authors did not include any information about collection or other permits being issued to anyone to make the research possible. The questions that came to mind while reading the article included: where did the spiderlings pictured come from?, who was issued the permit?, was a permit issued at all?, and when it comes down to it, how is such research possible if Brazil is so strict on what one can and can't do with their wildlife? In published academic research, one usually finds collection permit information and in some cases a special thanks to a government institution that allows for the allowing of the research in a protected area along with information on voucher specimens from the area research was undertaken.

I also found it suspicious that the publications of these authors' research in the German Arachnological Society as well as the British Tarantula Society kind of coincided with when the Typhochlaena seladonia spiderlings hit the market. Kind of odd that research on these species which shows pictures of them in the wild as well as captivity happens to be published around the same period of time they hit the pet trade.

Again, I'm not making judgements or jumping to conclusions here, this is just what I found suspicious about the research articles in the context of what I think Brazilian wildlife laws say. Like I said, I am completely ignorant of any international wildlife laws and I have no knowledge regarding these research papers. As far as I know, everything was legal and legit. I am certainly not trying to start rumors.

These are the papers I am referring to.

Andre C. and M. Hüsser (2016). Die Gattung Typhochlaena - Historie und Systematik sowie Habitat und Lebensweise von T. seladonia, T. costae und T. curumim. Arachne 21(3): 4-33.

Andre, C. & Hüsser, M. (2018). About trapdoors and bridges – new insights in the little-known ecology and lifestyle of the genus Typhochlaena C.L. Koch, 1850. Journal of the British Tarantula Society 32(3): 3-29.

I believe that is Martin Husser- he's a member on the board here.

He also has seen these in the wild, he or someone else posted pic/s of this species below. It's gorgeous, and of course slow growing as this genus is known to be.

https://birdspiders.ch/colombia-beautiful-yellow-blue-pseudhapalopus-tarantula-2/

Had no clue about all the shady stuff behind this species and it's introduction into the hobby. Very interesting to know and helps put this move by Brazil into better perspective.

As I said earlier, there are MANY species of Ts entrenched in the hobby that were illegally acquired first, quite a few African species. In fact, there are species from various African countries that are illegal for natives to own, yet we own them.

 

[Vanessa]

@pocock1899 Is there a statute of limitations that might have run it's course on the other Brazilian species that have been in the hobby for long periods?

 

[pocock1899]

@pocock1899 Is there a statute of limitations that might have run it's course on the other Brazilian species that have been in the hobby for long periods?

That's a great question. Unfortunately, it may not help here.
I'll add first, that I'm not a lawyer, and this is my best guess. If you plan on violating Federal Law, get a real lawyer!

Generally the Statute of Limitations under US Federal law is 5yrs. For a situation like this, the clock on that 5yrs doesn't start running until a US violation has occurred. So, it's not when the poaching occurred, which is a violation of foreign law (Brazil's law in this case). The US violation is when the illegal spiders are imported into the US. So, if there are spiders that were imported longer than five years ago, then I would definitely think that's an avenue I would pursue.
However, I can think of another question that might be a problem for that approach. There may may be no remedy for them being illegal under the Brazilian law. If that's the case, every time the spiders crossed a state, tribal, or international border, the clock would reset.
To be honest, I'm not sure how that part would work. If I would invested heavily in a spider like that, I'd make a call to a lawyer that if familiar with federal law.
Again, great question.

 

[Vanessa]

That's a great question. Unfortunately, it may not help here.
I'll add first, that I'm not a lawyer, and this is my best guess. If you plan on violating Federal Law, get a real lawyer!

Generally the Statute of Limitations under US Federal law is 5yrs. For a situation like this, the clock on that 5yrs doesn't start running until a US violation has occurred. So, it's not when the poaching occurred, which is a violation of foreign law (Brazil's law in this case). The US violation is when the illegal spiders are imported into the US. So, if there are spiders that were imported longer than five years ago, then I would definitely think that's an avenue I would pursue.
However, I can think of another question that might be a problem for that approach. There may may be no remedy for them being illegal under the Brazilian law. If that's the case, every time the spiders crossed a state, tribal, or international border, the clock would reset.
To be honest, I'm not sure how that part would work. If I would invested heavily in a spider like that, I'd make a call to a lawyer that if familiar with federal law.
Again, great question.

I'm in Canada, so the United States laws don't apply to me directly and our dealers don't import from the United States very often... to my knowledge. However, I am sure that Canada has similar, if not stricter, laws in place that will now be enforced more thoroughly due to this situation taking place.
My question was geared more towards those species who have been in the hobby for many years - like Lasiodora parahybana. I guess there are a lot of questions that can't be answered about a species like that. Were they imported legally at one point or before the Brazilian laws were put into place? Are they offspring of legally imported individuals? T.seledonia is brand new and the resources have been put into place for Brazilian authorities to very quickly confirm that they have not ever been exported legally. I'm guessing that the same can't be said for species who have been in the hobby for decades, in some cases.
I don't see this crackdown as being a bad thing... for the record. I do not support smuggling or poaching. Having said that, the average hobbyist is probably not up to speed on the laws, even if they refuse to support wild caught trade for personal reasons. They might be thinking that they are not breaking any laws by purchasing an obviously captive bred Lasiodora parahybana or other species unique to Brazil.
Thank you very much for the information that you have provided.

 

[darkness975]

We dont need any further restrictions on our already unpopular hobby.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

We dont need any further restrictions on our already unpopular hobby.

Yeah and at current rates of forest loss , never know when or how this species could show up again . Or go extinct in the wild .
Very unfortunate these spiders could die in a police warehouse due to confiscation. They are not prepared or capable of taking car of animals. In Africa rare rhinos died due to poor care, and Ts are much more fragile.